Safaa is correct, and I hope that our Church will make use of the development of the Cappadocian energies/essence distinction by the EO Church, for I believe it will make this clearer.
God's essence is that which defines God's being in and of Himself; it is what makes God who He is in contrast to everything created. In that sense, no one can participate in the essence of God.
God's energies, otherwise known as His Grace, is that which is God in His economy--in His activities and self-revelation. We receive God insofar as we receive His energies.
The energies of God are not "part" of His essence. Nor are they hypostases or persons. The Hypostases of God are ontologically prior to His energies; they give expression to His energies, but are not to be identified with His energies.
Thanks Iqbal for clearing that up for me, i was really confused but it makes a little more sense. could you somehow tie this together with communion. now for that i am positive that we are recieving the true blood and body of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ in His Divinity correct? and this is not just his energies right?
Dear jydeacon, In the Holy Communion we partake of the body and Blood of our Lord, we do not partake of His Divinity. The definition of Church’s Mysteries: Partaking of Divine and unseen Grace under a visible and seen substance,( water of Baptism, Oil of Myroon bread nd wine......)
Again, Safaa hit the nail on the head. As Safaa makes clear, the energies of God i.e. His Grace, is Divine. It is not however, the Divine essence. The distinction seems a bit confusing, but it is important that you bear it in mind.
So is the holy communion physically the body and blood under a guise of bread and wine, or is it simply the means by which we receive the true, divine grace of the body and blood of Christ?
I cannot believe this post is still alive. Listen. Iqbal gave me the answer. THat's it. I cannot believe that this topic still going on!? I'm going to close it. Its getting out of hand. There are more important issues that are disturbing me such as Egyptian Culture in the Coptic Church. This is a very serious issue.
I'm going to close this topic, because as far as I'm concerned, its not debattable. Iqbal gave the answer. That's it.
What he said, made total sense, and more than that is confusing me....
I don't think the thread is getting out of hand in any sense of the expression that would demand it to be locked. People are making genuine inquiries and there is no reason to not allow others to continue to post in order to shed more light on any of the issues raised or to further inquire for their own edification. My answers are certainly not the final word, and no one should be restricted from contributing lest they be deprived of an opportunity to learn or enlighten, or both.
This thread, as with any thread, should remain open unless it begins to follow a course whereupon the forum rules are being challenged; there doesn't seem to be any reason why this thread should pursue that line, however.
There is no debate on Coptic Theological dogmas. Its literally all factual. I'm concerned that he's already given us the answer (at least I'm very happy with it), and our energies could be used in addressing more pressing issues.
Also, this topic is now going into the issue of do we "eat" Christ's divinity in the Holy Communion. Iqbal already answered this:
We eat His Holy Body. Not His Divinity.
I'm closing this topic for one reason: Its not fair taht Iqbal writes clear answers and takes the time to make them coherent, if we ignore it. By closing this topic, people will have to go and see the answers themselves. I think that's fair.
Dear all, Let me take this opportunity to thank Safaa and Iqbal very much for their precise and concise clarification of these things. Yes, these things are pretty confusing, and sometimes very much so. But it is clear now, we partake the Communion which is the real Body and Blood of Christ to share in His Essence through His energies, but as being limited creatures, we cannot contain the Unlimited, be it the Holy Spirit, or the Body or Blood of Christ. Second thing, I don't think I need to open a new thread, as we have all learnt from this one. Dear vassilios, please don't forget that I am a newbie, I didn't have the chance to read your thread before. It might have been my mistake in the first place to ask the question, but in all honesty, I am glad that many people kept asking, and I learnt new things through a mere stupid and slightly "easy" debate. You can't know how much I learnt. God bless us all. Please don't forget to mention my name in your prayers
Hi Ophedece, Its ok. i was just trying to make Iqbal's life easier.. but he seems happy to answer the same questions again. That's great. I hope he can still be fair and use his/her time to answer other questions also. Take care, Vas
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5357.msg71904#msg71904 date=1180973235] Dear all, Let me take this opportunity to thank Safaa and Iqbal very much for their precise and concise clarification of these things. Yes, these things are pretty confusing, and sometimes very much so. But it is clear now, we partake the Communion which is the real Body and Blood of Christ to share in His Essence through His energies, but as being limited creatures, we cannot contain the Unlimited, be it the Holy Spirit, or the Body or Blood of Christ. Second thing, I don't think I need to open a new thread, as we have all learnt from this one. Dear vassilios, please don't forget that I am a newbie, I didn't have the chance to read your thread before. It might have been my mistake in the first place to ask the question, but in all honesty, I am glad that many people kept asking, and I learnt new things through a mere stupid and slightly "easy" debate. You can't know how much I learnt. God bless us all. Please don't forget to mention my name in your prayers
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5357.msg71908#msg71908 date=1180973939] Dear vassilios, Thanks for your quick reply. God bless you and mention me in your prayers
Its just there's 1000's of topics i've mentioned, and it would be so cool to have Iqbal's take on it, and the sad part is he's answering the SAME questions again that he's already answered very thoroughly.
Vassilios, Iqal hasn't been answering the same questions. People have been asking many different questions, and various people have answered. Iqbal and Safaa are not here to answer your questions exclusively.
I cannot believe this post is still alive. Listen. Iqbal gave me the answer. THat's it. I cannot believe that this topic still going on!? I'm going to close it. Its getting out of hand. There are more important issues that are disturbing me such as Egyptian Culture in the Coptic Church. This is a very serious issue.
I'm going to close this topic, because as far as I'm concerned, its not debattable. Iqbal gave the answer. That's it.
What he said, made total sense, and more than that is confusing me....
i think that another topic should be closed...namely that Topic: What do u think of this? thats going out of hand...it makes no sense
I actually found the article Safaa was talking about, this makes much more sense now here is the link: http://www.copticpope.org/downloads/eng_keraza/engkeraza23-02-2007.pdf Hopefully this can help anyone that is having as much trouble as me grasping this concept, it is under the Spiritual Article by HH on the left of the page
I cannot believe this post is still alive. Listen. Iqbal gave me the answer. THat's it. I cannot believe that this topic still going on!? I'm going to close it. Its getting out of hand. There are more important issues that are disturbing me such as Egyptian Culture in the Coptic Church. This is a very serious issue.
I'm going to close this topic, because as far as I'm concerned, its not debattable. Iqbal gave the answer. That's it.
What he said, made total sense, and more than that is confusing me....
i think that another topic should be closed...namely that Topic: What do u think of this? thats going out of hand...it makes no sense
pp4m
No! I don't think so! People are still making very very valid and interesting comments in that topic. Very interesting posts.... yes... Its going out of hand when i say its going out of hand - yes? and so far, i haven't said that - yes?
Many thanks, not least to jydeacon for the weblink, which was excellent.
Prof. Bebawy, has, alas, lapsed from the True way. This illustrates one of the problems when one decides to interpret Holy Scripture and the Fathers by the light of one's own reason rather than through the light of the Holy Church.
We have an example of it here at the start. Quite clearly the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, and to imply that in some way Our Lord was subordinate to the Spirit is not true doctrine; the Church has never taught this.
Similarly with ourselves and the Eucharist. The bread and wine become the body and blood of our blessed and glorious Saviour, and they help unit us with Him; but it is with the energies and not the essence of Christ. What we know of the Father we know through the Son, for he who has seen the Son has seen the Father; that does not mean we have seen the whole of the Father - just what we are allowed to know of Him.
This is, I think (and hope) an interesting and informative discussion - carried on in love and fellowship - as befits a Christian community (even a virtual one!).
Reading your remark regarding the personhood of the Holy Spirit, reminded me that I have left my posts regarding our interaction with Him significantly unqualified.
I must stress the fact that inasmuch as we do participate in and receive God insofar as we participate in and receive His Grace ("energies"), our encounter with Him cannot be reduced to a merely impersonal encounter with "faceless" Grace/Energies. His Grace is given expression to by the Hypostases/Persons of the Trinity. Our union and relationship with, and encounter of Him is indeed personal. The Grace of the Holy Spirit is as inseparable from His Person as His essence is.
Indeed, and thank you for this. At the heart of our Faith is the personal encounter with the Risen Lord at the Eucharistic feast; it is the encounter of our person with His Person - and through that we shall know Him. You do (as always) well to stress this.
Because of Him, and what He has done for me, my relationship with God is transformed; because of Him I know that God is my father and my friend, as well as my judge; through knowing Christ I know the Father. If I do not know Christ, I know nothing worth while at all.
Comments
God's essence is that which defines God's being in and of Himself; it is what makes God who He is in contrast to everything created. In that sense, no one can participate in the essence of God.
God's energies, otherwise known as His Grace, is that which is God in His economy--in His activities and self-revelation. We receive God insofar as we receive His energies.
The energies of God are not "part" of His essence. Nor are they hypostases or persons. The Hypostases of God are ontologically prior to His energies; they give expression to His energies, but are not to be identified with His energies.
In the Holy Communion we partake of the body and Blood of our Lord, we do not partake of His Divinity.
The definition of Church’s Mysteries: Partaking of Divine and unseen Grace under a visible and seen substance,( water of Baptism, Oil of Myroon bread nd wine......)
Again, Safaa hit the nail on the head. As Safaa makes clear, the energies of God i.e. His Grace, is Divine. It is not however, the Divine essence. The distinction seems a bit confusing, but it is important that you bear it in mind.
I cannot believe that this topic still going on!? I'm going to close it. Its getting out of hand. There are more important issues that are disturbing me such as Egyptian Culture in the Coptic Church. This is a very serious issue.
I'm going to close this topic, because as far as I'm concerned, its not debattable. Iqbal gave the answer. That's it.
What he said, made total sense, and more than that is confusing me....
I don't think the thread is getting out of hand in any sense of the expression that would demand it to be locked. People are making genuine inquiries and there is no reason to not allow others to continue to post in order to shed more light on any of the issues raised or to further inquire for their own edification. My answers are certainly not the final word, and no one should be restricted from contributing lest they be deprived of an opportunity to learn or enlighten, or both.
This thread, as with any thread, should remain open unless it begins to follow a course whereupon the forum rules are being challenged; there doesn't seem to be any reason why this thread should pursue that line, however.
Im concerned that Iqbal already gave the answer here:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=5357.15
There is no debate on Coptic Theological dogmas. Its literally all factual. I'm concerned that he's already given us the answer (at least I'm very happy with it), and our energies could be used in addressing more pressing issues.
Also, this topic is now going into the issue of do we "eat" Christ's divinity in the Holy Communion. Iqbal already answered this:
We eat His Holy Body. Not His Divinity.
I'm closing this topic for one reason: Its not fair taht Iqbal writes clear answers and takes the time to make them coherent, if we ignore it. By closing this topic, people will have to go and see the answers themselves. I think that's fair.
This issue of partaking of His Divinity was already asked by myself in another thread.
Regards,
Let me take this opportunity to thank Safaa and Iqbal very much for their precise and concise clarification of these things. Yes, these things are pretty confusing, and sometimes very much so. But it is clear now, we partake the Communion which is the real Body and Blood of Christ to share in His Essence through His energies, but as being limited creatures, we cannot contain the Unlimited, be it the Holy Spirit, or the Body or Blood of Christ.
Second thing, I don't think I need to open a new thread, as we have all learnt from this one. Dear vassilios, please don't forget that I am a newbie, I didn't have the chance to read your thread before. It might have been my mistake in the first place to ask the question, but in all honesty, I am glad that many people kept asking, and I learnt new things through a mere stupid and slightly "easy" debate. You can't know how much I learnt.
God bless us all. Please don't forget to mention my name in your prayers
Its ok. i was just trying to make Iqbal's life easier.. but he seems happy to answer the same questions again. That's great. I hope he can still be fair and use his/her time to answer other questions also.
Take care,
Vas
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5357.msg71904#msg71904 date=1180973235]
Dear all,
Let me take this opportunity to thank Safaa and Iqbal very much for their precise and concise clarification of these things. Yes, these things are pretty confusing, and sometimes very much so. But it is clear now, we partake the Communion which is the real Body and Blood of Christ to share in His Essence through His energies, but as being limited creatures, we cannot contain the Unlimited, be it the Holy Spirit, or the Body or Blood of Christ.
Second thing, I don't think I need to open a new thread, as we have all learnt from this one. Dear vassilios, please don't forget that I am a newbie, I didn't have the chance to read your thread before. It might have been my mistake in the first place to ask the question, but in all honesty, I am glad that many people kept asking, and I learnt new things through a mere stupid and slightly "easy" debate. You can't know how much I learnt.
God bless us all. Please don't forget to mention my name in your prayers
Thanks for your quick reply.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
Dear vassilios,
Thanks for your quick reply.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
Its just there's 1000's of topics i've mentioned, and it would be so cool to have Iqbal's take on it, and the sad part is he's answering the SAME questions again that he's already answered very thoroughly.
Iqal hasn't been answering the same questions. People have been asking many different questions, and various people have answered. Iqbal and Safaa are not here to answer your questions exclusively.
thats going out of hand...it makes no sense
pp4m
http://www.copticpope.org/downloads/eng_keraza/engkeraza23-02-2007.pdf
Hopefully this can help anyone that is having as much trouble as me grasping this concept, it is under the Spiritual Article by HH on the left of the page
thats going out of hand...it makes no sense
pp4m
No! I don't think so! People are still making very very valid and interesting comments in that topic. Very interesting posts.... yes...
Its going out of hand when i say its going out of hand - yes? and so far, i haven't said that - yes?
lol
Many thanks, not least to jydeacon for the weblink, which was excellent.
Prof. Bebawy, has, alas, lapsed from the True way. This illustrates one of the problems when one decides to interpret Holy Scripture and the Fathers by the light of one's own reason rather than through the light of the Holy Church.
We have an example of it here at the start. Quite clearly the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity, and to imply that in some way Our Lord was subordinate to the Spirit is not true doctrine; the Church has never taught this.
Similarly with ourselves and the Eucharist. The bread and wine become the body and blood of our blessed and glorious Saviour, and they help unit us with Him; but it is with the energies and not the essence of Christ. What we know of the Father we know through the Son, for he who has seen the Son has seen the Father; that does not mean we have seen the whole of the Father - just what we are allowed to know of Him.
This is, I think (and hope) an interesting and informative discussion - carried on in love and fellowship - as befits a Christian community (even a virtual one!).
In Christ,
Anglian
Reading your remark regarding the personhood of the Holy Spirit, reminded me that I have left my posts regarding our interaction with Him significantly unqualified.
I must stress the fact that inasmuch as we do participate in and receive God insofar as we participate in and receive His Grace ("energies"), our encounter with Him cannot be reduced to a merely impersonal encounter with "faceless" Grace/Energies. His Grace is given expression to by the Hypostases/Persons of the Trinity. Our union and relationship with, and encounter of Him is indeed personal. The Grace of the Holy Spirit is as inseparable from His Person as His essence is.
Indeed, and thank you for this. At the heart of our Faith is the personal encounter with the Risen Lord at the Eucharistic feast; it is the encounter of our person with His Person - and through that we shall know Him. You do (as always) well to stress this.
Because of Him, and what He has done for me, my relationship with God is transformed; because of Him I know that God is my father and my friend, as well as my judge; through knowing Christ I know the Father. If I do not know Christ, I know nothing worth while at all.
In Christ,
John