OK, I have a problem, and you'll see why below it is under this category: "The Coptic Orthodox Church".
I'm "stuck" in Turkey on business, i usually get a flight back to paris for the weekend, but i'm stuck here (long story). Anyway, I thought that i might as well go to Church here. I checked on the internet, and there's no coptic churches in Istanbul.
Anyway, I went on Sunday to an "english speaking" Catholic Church.
Look what happened:
I went early to the Church, and at the start of the mass this girl said "Welcome everyone, thanks for coming to our Church". Then a priest took the mic and said to everyone :"Happy Easter everyone". No one answered, then he screamed and said "HAPPY EASTER!!!!".
Of course, everyone answered afterwards in fear of extending needless time in purgatory when they could be enjoying Paradise.
HAHA (That was a subtle joke for those that read my comments because you know i have a good sense of humour).
Anyway, I went to the vespers in the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church is GREEK in Istanbul. I went to see H,H Bartholemew. I went to Church, and i was right next to him. He didnt seem very happy to see me. I spoke to a priest concerning communion, and he said it was not possible to have communion in their CHurch as a Coptic CHristian; yet this SAME priest attended the latest ecumenical council in Egypt under his grace Bishop Pishoy in Der Anba Rewis.
I told him that Dioscorus and Athanasious were our Patriarch's. We are NOT heretic. He said it wasnt possible.
The entire vespers were in Greek, and frankly, although my greek isnt too good, i prefered it to spontanous outbursts of "HAPPPY EASTER EVERYONE!!!".
What do i do? I cant pray in the catholic, I cannot have communion in the Orthodox, and i'm stuck here in Istanbul!!!??? THe only thing possible is shopping.... lol ...
Anyway, how is it we can marry greek women and yet not have communion in their Churches??? What do the Greek patriarchate want exactly??? And what will it take it to give it to them.
If you do not travel, nor live where there are NO COPTIC churches, u will NOT understand at all this situation.
Comments
I am very happy I heard your point about Greek. Anyway, I think that is a very difficult question that I won't be able to answer, but what on earth got you stuck in that city in the first place? Very strange as well, as I used to think Greek Orthodox are exactly the same and you can partake in the Communion in these churches as well. But in any case, you fly to France in weekends, can't you attend a Mass in a French Coptic Orthodox church on Friday or Saturday (as I think you mean that it is difficult to attend there on Sundays anyway)? God bless you and always ask him for a solution in your prayers.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
No.. i knew that we couldn't participate in a Greek mass; but I was upset to know that they wouldnt let me communion given that there were NO Coptic Churches!?!
I guess i could have gone to the armenian Churches here (they are our sister churches), but for the life of me, i cant understand armenian, and frankly speaking, the less times i have to speak to a Turk taxi driver, the better i feel.
Yeah - im stuck in Istanbul, I missed the flight back to paris on the weekend. Its an awful country here: EVERYTHING is a mosque.
Its funny, because whenever you go out to do any sightseeing, the only thing to see are mosques. Even if you go to a Church, its a CHurch, but converted to a mosque.
Last week a 4 christians got killed by muslims who were "protecting " their country and "islam" from Christians.
They are scared by the <1% christian population??? Its awful. I feel like Saudi Arabia is more open than here!!
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=5237.msg70258#msg70258 date=1177328298]
Dear vassilios,
I am very happy I heard your point about Greek. Anyway, I think that is a very difficult question that I won't be able to answer, but what on earth got you stuck in that city in the first place? Very strange as well, as I used to think Greek Orthodox are exactly the same and you can partake in the Communion in these churches as well. But in any case, you fly to France in weekends, can't you attend a Mass in a French Coptic Orthodox church on Friday or Saturday (as I think you mean that it is difficult to attend there on Sundays anyway)? God bless you and always ask him for a solution in your prayers.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
I am very sad for the state the Christians are in in those countries, but at least we pray each and every Mass for the Christians all over the world. It is even sadder to see yourself there, as I understood your point, when you said that anyone living in a country with Coptic churches wouldn't understand where you were coming from. In any case, God bless you and help you find a solution for this.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers
I suspect you know the answer to the question What they want is for you to 'convert' to what they insist is the only 'real' Orthodoxy - so I guess it is off to the Armenians.
I know that locally, in Egypt, different arrangements can obtain, but where the EO are in the majority, they are insistent on doing it their way - as you have, alas, discovered.
One of the great sadnesses of the last century is the decline of Christianity in the area you find yourself in - and it is getting worse. I guess you'll just have to hope the Turkish taxi-drivers don't mind taking you to an Armenian Church.
In Christ,
John
I vidoetaped the vespers with H,H Bartholemew. It was amazing. THey have these priests that carry his robe. Then these two priests, with Incensors go around and propogate the Church with incense. Then they propogate the patriarch with incense. Then after propogating him with incense, he just stands there.... looking at them. Then he kinda looked at me, as if to say :"Im too sexy for this job". Lol
Then these deacons came up and bowed down and kissed the floor, FULL PROSTRATION, before him. Again, he didnt look amused. You'd think he'd say thank you, but he just stared at them... anyway, he kinda looked towards me as if to say :"look how cool i am".
I don't know exactly what was on his mind, but that was my impression. If I stay there, i could be asked to go and kiss his feet, or give him a neck massage or something, so i decided to leave before someone asked me to go and fetch him a cuppa tea.
What do we have to do with the Armenians?? I'm happy to shake hands, i can give hugs, but that's it.. that's where I stop. More than that, its gonna cost them, and frankly speaking, I AINT CHEAP!
It worries me, u go into a CHurch to pray, and before u know it, people are all over a man , smoothing him over with kisses, kissing his feet, carrying his robe, adoring him, and then before u know it, they've got u joining in on the act. Its all slave labour.
LOL ;D
That was priceless - I'm glad that being in Turkey hasn't dampened that sense of humour.
You sure they didn't swing the censer in your direction a few times - just in case? We'll await the report on the Armenians!
Many thanks for this - v.v. funny.
In Christ,
John
The very fact that 'we' have tried to 'reconcile' with them makes the EO even surer in their own ecclesiology. For them, they are THE Church, and it is our job to repent, say very, very sorry, and ask humbly to be rebaptised. The fact that they do not even recognise our baptism tells you all you need to know - they don't even think we are Christians.
If you follow this link http://www.scoba.us/resources/documents/guide_for_orthodox.pdf it will give you the real answer to your question. It is their official guide to how to engage in 'ecumenism'. It essentially tells EO representatives never to forget that the rest of us are in schism - when we are not heretics.
It is true that some of those engaged in ecumenism do not share this view, but you only have to see how the Monks on Mt. Athos react to even something like the EP's reception of Pope Benedict to see that the EO as a Church is quite determined never to compromise their view. Which is what? That of all the millions of people in the world who call themselves Christians, they, and they alone are the only real ones.
The mindset of an imperial Church is still with them. They view everything in the light of their own suppositions and assume that only their views are valid; that is how imperialism works. Not 600 years of Ottoman rule or the shameful temporary triumph of Godless Communism can shift that mindset.
Whatever is said by those EOs who know that their position is a major obstacle to Christian unity, their Church remains wedded to the view that the rest of us are wrong and will, one day, say very sorry. Vassilios' experience is, I am afraid, the real EO in action. I am sorry for it, and for that attitude. When I was leaving the Anglican Church I thoroughly researched, and experienced, the EO attitude - and one reason I have joined the Coptic Church was that the narrow-mindedness and the sectarian mentality of many of the EO with whom I came into contact frankly repelled me; it was more like a cult than a Church.
My question would be to wonder why they mistake our desire for unity with a wish to unite with them? We wish to work with all Christians to come to an understanding of what we may have in common so that the rifts might, one day, be healed. Their attitude seems to be that they wish to keep others at arm's length to convince them of where they went wrong, so that one day they might have a chance to repent. They might remember that when Melkite troops were slaughtering Copts to enforce their version of 'Orthodoxy', the Copts remained true to the Faith once received and to the Cyrilline language, rejecting the laxness of the tome of Leo because of the Nestorian reading that could be made of it; if even bloodshed and persecution did not shake the Copts, being treated as though we need to repent, isn't going to change much either.
I suspect the main problem is that both the main EO Churches, the Greek and the Russian are so infused with nationalism that they have long mistaken ethnic practice for Orthodox praxis; the Greeks can't forget Constantinople; the Russians can't forget the Tsars. Our eyes remain fixed on the Holy City and the King of Kings. We would be wise to remember that.
In Christ,
John
I agree totally with what you said, the Greek Orthodox CHurch view us as heretics. They were so rude to our priest who went to visit the cave of Saint John with a group of Coptic youths. They threw him a table and said :"Here.. u can pray the mass on this table, AND by the way, don't be too long, u heretic!!". They wouldn't let him pray the mass in the grotto. They kept on telling him that he should repent and return to the "true faith", and deny our Coptic heresies.
WHat heresies??? Which ones??? I mean, we seem to have more in common with them (theologically at least) than with the catholics.
Perhaps they don't want us to become one Church with them in fear that our bishops will expect the same 5 star service they give to their bishops: carrying robes, kissing feet, etc ? I don't know..
I don't think its because they are too absorbed in nationalism! THeir fervour for their own faith can give the impression that Christ Himself was born in Athens, but i feel its beyond that. I think it has to do with "change" and "language".
You see; greek was once the official language of theologians: for them to express creed, dogma etc, it was greek. When you translate anything from Coptic to Greek, because its not in greek, they find it hard to accept it. They are stuck on their language. But why don't they have the spirit of unity.
OK.. my last question is: They want us to repent and be baptised. REPENT FOR WHAT? WHAT HERESIES?? They should say!! What do we believe in that THEY DO NOT???
Nothing changed in our Church since Dioscorus. We have the same creed since his time. WHy are they all of a sudden against us???
[quote author=Anglian link=topic=5237.msg70416#msg70416 date=1177567661]
Dear EpNomos EnTaio,
The very fact that 'we' have tried to 'reconcile' with them makes the EO even surer in their own ecclesiology. For them, they are THE Church, and it is our job to repent, say very, very sorry, and ask humbly to be rebaptised. The fact that they do not even recognise our baptism tells you all you need to know - they don't even think we are Christians.
If you follow this link http://www.scoba.us/resources/documents/guide_for_orthodox.pdf it will give you the real answer to your question. It is their official guide to how to engage in 'ecumenism'. It essentially tells EO representatives never to forget that the rest of us are in schism - when we are not heretics.
It is true that some of those engaged in ecumenism do not share this view, but you only have to see how the Monks on Mt. Athos react to even something like the EP's reception of Pope Benedict to see that the EO as a Church is quite determined never to compromise their view. Which is what? That of all the millions of people in the world who call themselves Christians, they, and they alone are the only real ones.
The mindset of an imperial Church is still with them. They view everything in the light of their own suppositions and assume that only their views are valid; that is how imperialism works. Not 600 years of Ottoman rule or the shameful temporary triumph of Godless Communism can shift that mindset.
Whatever is said by those EOs who know that their position is a major obstacle to Christian unity, their Church remains wedded to the view that the rest of us are wrong and will, one day, say very sorry. Vassilios' experience is, I am afraid, the real EO in action. I am sorry for it, and for that attitude. When I was leaving the Anglican Church I thoroughly researched, and experienced, the EO attitude - and one reason I have joined the Coptic Church was that the narrow-mindedness and the sectarian mentality of many of the EO with whom I came into contact frankly repelled me; it was more like a cult than a Church.
My question would be to wonder why they mistake our desire for unity with a wish to unite with them? We wish to work with all Christians to come to an understanding of what we may have in common so that the rifts might, one day, be healed. Their attitude seems to be that they wish to keep others at arm's length to convince them of where they went wrong, so that one day they might have a chance to repent. They might remember that when Melkite troops were slaughtering Copts to enforce their version of 'Orthodoxy', the Copts remained true to the Faith once received and to the Cyrilline language, rejecting the laxness of the tome of Leo because of the Nestorian reading that could be made of it; if even bloodshed and persecution did not shake the Copts, being treated as though we need to repent, isn't going to change much either.
I suspect the main problem is that both the main EO Churches, the Greek and the Russian are so infused with nationalism that they have long mistaken ethnic practice for Orthodox praxis; the Greeks can't forget Constantinople; the Russians can't forget the Tsars. Our eyes remain fixed on the Holy City and the King of Kings. We would be wise to remember that.
In Christ,
John
You have experienced this very sharply, of course; but I doubt any of us who have had any prolonged contact have not experienced something of the sort.
The EO, of course, regard St. Dioscorus as a heretic, as they do St. Severus of Antioch, so it is not surprising that they still regard us as Monophysites. Well, I have read much of the work of St. Severus and see nothing of that sort in it - nor yet in anything we believe. Coming as I did from outside Orthodoxy, I naturally looked towards EO, simply because here in the west it is the most common type. I found it generally narrow-minded, self-satisfied and preoccupied with ethnic issues; all very unChristian in my view. Then I came across the British Orthodox Church and the Copts - and found a totally different attitude.
I know many EO people who are not at all narrow-minded, and who are kindly, interested in dialogue, and very well-informed - indeed there are some on this site. But their hierarchies are a different matter.
No, let us remember they do think we are heretics - and most of them have no real idea why - but they are not encouraged to ask such questions - and have been told that the answer is because their tradition says so; very intellectually rigorous - I don't think.
The humility and the witness to Christ of the Copts speaks for itself; I am honoured and proud to be under the patriarchate of Alexandria, and to have as my spiritual leader a man of the stature of HH Pope Shenouda III.
In Christ,
John
OK, I have a problem, and you'll see why below it is under this category: "The Coptic Orthodox Church".
Anyway, I went to the vespers in the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church is GREEK in Istanbul. I went to see H,H Bartholemew. I went to Church, and i was right next to him. He didnt seem very happy to see me. I spoke to a priest concerning communion, and he said it was not possible to have communion in their CHurch as a Coptic CHristian; yet this SAME priest attended the latest ecumenical council in Egypt under his grace Bishop Pishoy in Der Anba Rewis.
I told him that Dioscorus and Athanasious were our Patriarch's. We are NOT heretic. He said it wasnt possible.
The entire vespers were in Greek, and frankly, although my greek isnt too good, i prefered it to spontanous outbursts of "HAPPPY EASTER EVERYONE!!!".
Am not surprised. we are not in unity with the greek church yet. for that u couldn't take communion. they wouldn't allow it and our church don't allow it...also you shouldn't allow it upon yourself.
who said we can marry from the greek church. the churchs are not in unity so there is no connection between our rite and theirs. yes they're in fact the closest to us but not with us.
God is in you all the time and His Spirit. taking communion is yes a great mystery to do during our lifes....but what can you do. for example i am going away for this weekend. 100% sure i wont be able to get communion Sunday....would that kill me...no.
All you have to do is keep Jesus in your heart all the time.
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5237.msg70420#msg70420 date=1177584703]
I agree totally with what you said, the Greek Orthodox CHurch view us as heretics.
WHat heresies??? Which ones??? I mean, we seem to have more in common with them (theologically at least) than with the catholics.
will as it was explained many times before, what happend is that in the great spllit during Pope Dioscoros, they excomunicated as and we did the same to them. (correct me if i am wrong John).
but i think the word heretic is just to strong to describe a church who kept the faith. don't forget, like u said before vassillios we kept the same faith since the counsils time. so....... weren't u there, why not ask them........... :) ;) i would love to an answer. i think language doesn't make any diffrence. look today we have many coptic churchs in many countries and in many language. the word coptic doesn't only refere to name of a language but it's the name of a nationality. the word coptic basicly means egyption. so it's the "Egyption Orthodox Church" in modern days wording. but its origin is Coptic becuase of all the ruling system and other stuff that connect to Islam in Egypt.
i am surprised by the word baptised. we have the same way of baptism and there must not be second baptism. i think they always been.
Also don’t brag about me replying to this post late vassilios.
Good post, for which many thanks.
I would agree about the use of the word 'heretic', were it not for the fact that the EO still seem to use the word 'monophysite' to describe us, and that, of course, is a heresy; it happens to be one we don't hold - but that doesn't stop the allegation being repeated.
The fact that the EO do require baptism from Coptic 'converts' shows they do not regard our baptism as valid - i.e. that we are the same in their eyes as heathens; that is not respectful. We, I think, do not require it of them, since we hold that although they chose to add to the Faith at Chalcedon, they hold much of the ancient Faith, and we see them more as brothers with whom we have quarrelled in the past and who, as will happen sometimes, just won't admit that they misjudged us. I have been told in as many words that we have to repent, apologise and accept Chalcedon and their other Councils, and then, just maybe they'll think about accepting us for baptism. That really is an imperialist mindset.
As long as that appears to be the EO view (although who, precisely, can actually speak for the EO is unclear) there appears to be little way forward. If one looks at the way the Russian Orthodox have spoken about each other in the past, with the rift between ROCOR and the Church inside Russia, one can see that this intolerance has not been confined to us. It is a great shame, since if they would but acknowledge it, we have more in common than divides us.
In Christ,
John
The fact that the EO do require baptism from Coptic 'converts' shows they do not regard our baptism as valid - i.e. that we are the same in their eyes as heathens; that is not respectful. We, I think, do not require it of them, since we hold that although they chose to add to the Faith at Chalcedon, they hold much of the ancient Faith, and we see them more as brothers with whom we have quarrelled in the past and who, as will happen sometimes, just won't admit that they misjudged us. I have been told in as many words that we have to repent, apologise and accept Chalcedon and their other Councils, and then, just maybe they'll think about accepting us for baptism. That really is an imperialist mindset.
yes i agree with you John, but it's just ignorent for them to not have our baptism valid. if a person who is converting from another denomenation to our coptic church, and he was baptised in the right way that we belive. even thoo if they were protestant. the bible clearly states that there is only one baptism in a liftime.
[coptic]+ Pi`<rictoc aftonf[/coptic] This is not true. As far as I know, if you are of a christian denomination that is not Orthodox, then you must be baptized when you become Orthodox.
well that's true if they are not baptised as our way. if he or she is, in the right way, there is no point of a second baptism because we are a church of one baptism as the bible states.
Vas, I think you should stick with the armenian church.. since it is one of our teacher churches and you can have communion there... perhaps you can download a translation of their liturgy in a language that you are more comfortable with and take it with you to follow on.. ?
Hope I helped.
+God Bless.
guys, try not to mock other religious traditions, at least not in a public forum. Keep in mind you may actually offend someone..
ya habibi we're not mocking or attcking in one. we're just saying the truth and what we think about it. since we're takling the greek church, may be someone can correct if we said any wrong.
This is from the Standing Conference of Orthodox Bishops in the USA on dealing with other Churches: The EO are being perfectly consistent with this view when they will not commune us or when they insist on rebaptising. Now it is true that at a local level in Alexandria there are agreements in place between ourselves and the Greeks which do allow for an 'economy'; that is great, and we encourage it.
But one of the difficulties of dealing with the EO is to know where authority lies. On another message board, run by the EO, I have seen the Greek patriarch of Alexandria denounced for this arrangement. So, I hope no one things this is being discourteous to the EO, but we know we are the Orthodox Church. It might be possible to explore an ecclesiology (a doctrine of the Church and its boundaries) which allowed for some understanding - but not whilst the Greeks and Russians say they are 'the only' Orthodox Church - after all, what does that make us in their eyes?
In Christ,
John
The fact that the EO do require baptism from Coptic 'converts' shows they do not regard our baptism as valid - i.e. that we are the same in their eyes as heathens; that is not respectful.
Other than on Mount Athos, and possibly Jerusalem and the ROCOR, this is not true.
A Copt wishing to join the Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Moscow, Romania, etc. would be received by Chrismation only, which is how an EO would be received into the Coptic Church.
In Christ,
John
The Lord gave power to the fathers saying: "what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; and what you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
It seems clear then that a true priest can deny or give the blessing to you and in either case heaven is behind the choice.
If a person is denied a sacrament it is the power of the priest (like it or not) we must respect it without grumbling.
If the priest gives a different sacarament (ie: marriage OK but communion NO) this is also his power to do so and it must be repsected.
If the priest in any case abuse his power or is reckless or is negligent than pray for him and find another priest.
If we know that we are not worthy of a sacarament and run to another priest who is more 'liberal' than we make ourselves heretics in such cases.
If we beleive the priest is not being just in his power we can see his bishop for his review of the matter. We do this with great respect. It may be best to first ask the priest his permission to go to his bishop to discusss the matter. This is really the right and orthodox way.
Just some small points of mention
Well... I think its a shame that us and the Greek Patriarchate are not in communion. But i think it is possible actually to marry from them without any re-baptism.
[quote author=Dcn. Amde link=topic=5237.msg70899#msg70899 date=1179164064]
Christ Has Risen!
The Lord gave power to the fathers saying: "what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; and what you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
It seems clear then that a true priest can deny or give the blessing to you and in either case heaven is behind the choice.
If a person is denied a sacrament it is the power of the priest (like it or not) we must respect it without grumbling.
If the priest gives a different sacarament (ie: marriage OK but communion NO) this is also his power to do so and it must be repsected.
If the priest in any case abuse his power or is reckless or is negligent than pray for him and find another priest.
If we know that we are not worthy of a sacarament and run to another priest who is more 'liberal' than we make ourselves heretics in such cases.
If we beleive the priest is not being just in his power we can see his bishop for his review of the matter. We do this with great respect. It may be best to first ask the priest his permission to go to his bishop to discusss the matter. This is really the right and orthodox way.
Just some small points of mention
Hi,
Well... I think its a shame that us and the Greek Patriarchate are not in communion. But i think it is possible actually to marry from them without any re-baptism.
marriage is one of our 7 coptic sacrements. you can't break it. ur coptic orthodox through these 7 sacrements. since they are nor in unity with us, than they don't apply for the 7 sacrements.
Actually if you want to get married/or they want to join our church, from there church they don't have to get re-baptized but they must be chrismated.
yes that goes to everyone else in Christianty but you have to consider the baptism. am not sure which way the greek church baptis in. Sprinkling or full immersion. please someone confirm.
No when i mean they must be chrismated i mean by our church not just theirs and i believe they do do it by submersion because we have someone from the Russian Orthodox who came to our church and he was not re-baptized but only Chrismated. so i would guess because the Russian Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox are in communion with each other they would baptize the same way as well.
not necessarily. thy're in unity in faith but not in rites and dogmas. 1 example is that they have diffrent liturgies.
In Christ,
Anglian
I would agree with you Minagir - the problem is that many EO would not. I wonder what out friend Orthodox11 thinks?
doesn't that mean they are denying what St, Athansius did in the Nekia, and what St. Cyril in Constantinople and in Ephesus. So they are saying that we are not Orthodox even though we, as Oriental Orthodox and more specific copts, were the ones who defended the faith, were the head of the brothers (the pope of the churches), and we put to gather the Creed and than the intro of the creed.
Don’t they know that we are the ones who kept the faith in didn’t change in Chalcedon, correct me if I am wrong anyone.
Here in this link, Deal or No Deal? , Fr. Anthony Messeh shows how our Orthodox Church is the original Apostolic church, leading down from the Apostles times. (Great sermons)
It’s just so weird how people think of God …………………
O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility, and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Pascha like no other.
so true..............................