Dear All,
I'm writing this message from Turkey - Istanbul Turkey. As you all probably know, this was Constantinople. We still call this city constantinople in our Liturgy - never istanbul.
The council of Nicea, the Council of Constantinople, the Council of Ephesus ALL took place in this country.
The Council of Constantinople took place on the top floor gallery of Agios Sophia between two huge marble doors. The Great Basilica commissioned by Saint Constantine, and Theodosius.
The Church is so brilliant, and magnificent that the Roman Catholic's even constructed Saint Peter's Basilica based on this Basilica - but just a little larger.
This is now a mosque. Surely converting a Church to a mosque is in itself a defamation of the Church?? Shouldn't the Orthodox Patriarchates ask for this to be restored back into a CHurch? The Ottomans removed ALL icons from the Church, the only images in the Church left are those that were brilliantly done in Mosiacs... they even tried to pluck them off the walls, but a good portion of it are still there. Where the 4 gospels are, there are now huge koranic verses on the walls. A small "kabba" is placed where the alter was; the Iconostasis has been removed.
Now we are in 2007, and Turkey wishes to get entry to the EU, shouldnt they give this building back to the Orthodox Patriarchate?? Shouldn't we at least suggest the idea?
Comments
In an ideal world, this may happen, but then, in an ideal world, there would be no Islam. I do not see an Islamic country ever giving back a former church turned mosque ever, no matter what.
* This is the buriel place for our Saint John Chrysostom, and many other saints
* This is the world's FIRST basilica!! Its a Christian heritiage. The ottomans/ataturks had NO RIGHT in taking what we hold as sacred and making them into mosques!!
* This is where the council of Constantinople took place. It was this council that included the Holy Spirit which is what we have in the Orthodox Creed.
I don't know, but if you saw HUGE islamic paintings/koranic writings replacing your Church icons, wouldn't that frustrate you also??
It is a pity I can say. I don't know where Cephas comes from, but I come from Egypt myself, and hey thousand and thousand of churches and of monasteries were taken, for the payment of blood and lives of great saints and martyrs, and this is how our church (like minagir always suggests in his posts) is strong and mighty through the ages. Well, afterall, I can't comment on this post, as I don't find a solution for that myself, and I don't think the Islam (whichever century we are living in) would submit to the international laws, or agreements, and give back the mosques that they built in place of the churches. From my point of view, let's just pray, and God will return all things to us in His own way.
Very poor reply, isn't it? Well, I think yes, but as a Christian I don't think we should get into arguments and debates with those people who don't understand anything.
God bless you all and mention me in your prayers
I sympathise. But I think you'll find it is no longer a mosque, either - Ataturk had the Cathedral of St. Sophia turned into a museum, which is what it is today. Indeed, given where you are, you will find Muslims who are angry and would like it turned back into mosque!
Even sadder, in its own way, is the fact that whereas in 1900 there were millions of Christians in the Ottoman Empire, there are now very few left in Turkey. The Ecumenical Patriarch is virtually confined to a very small part of Constantinople, and his actual flock is numbered in thousands. Buildings, however wonderful (and I totally agree about Agios Sophia, it is breathtakingly wonderful) are less important than people; but, of course, what has happened to the one has to the other.
Maybe we should suggest that if it is a museum it is a Christian one? Mind you, then some Islamic fundamentalist would set fire to it - so better leave it alone - sad though it is.
In Christ,
John
Dear All,
I'm writing this message from Turkey - Istanbul Turkey. As you all probably know, this was Constantinople. We still call this city constantinople in our Liturgy - never istanbul.
The council of Nicea, the Council of Constantinople, the Council of Ephesus ALL took place in this country.
The Council of Constantinople took place on the top floor gallery of Agios Sophia between two huge marble doors. The Great Basilica commissioned by Saint Constantine, and Theodosius.
The Church is so brilliant, and magnificent that the Roman Catholic's even constructed Saint Peter's Basilica based on this Basilica - but just a little larger.
Not just the Roman Catholics. Take a look at all the Ottoman mosques around Turkey, or even Egypt, which have been based on Agia Sophia! They didn't destroy the icons; they plastered over them. Ironically, this has protected the icons from wear and tear and has actually preserved them very well considering their age. Some restoration work has been done, although a lot more is needed. Actually, there was a petition going around for people to sign, demanding that the Turks must return Agia Sophia to the Orthodox if they want entry to the EU. The relics of St. John Chrysostom was taken to Rome by the Catholic crusaders. Most of them were returned by the late Pope John Paul II last year as a sign of good will towards the Orthodox. I think they now rest in St. George's church in the Patriarchate. Sadly, this has been the case since the dawn of Islam. Even St. Catherine's monastery in Sinai has a small mosque inside it, and the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem has a special section for Muslims wanting to see the birthplace of "Isa al Rasul". Agia Sophia was not constructed until centuries later by Emperor Justinian, and so the Council did not take place in the existing Basilica.
But it still has great significance. In the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom used by the Byzantine churches, prior to the Creed the deacon still says "the doors, the doors, Wisdom let us attend." I've heard this refers to the time when Constantinople (Byzantium) was still a Christian city. The people would begin the Liturgy in the small parish churches, then they would all walk in procession to the church of Holy Wisdom (Agia Sophia), where the deacon would say "the doors, the doors, Wisdom let us attend" and the people would enter the Basillica and proceed with the final part of the Liturgy.
Even sadder, in its own way, is the fact that whereas in 1900 there were millions of Christians in the Ottoman Empire, there are now very few left in Turkey. The Ecumenical Patriarch is virtually confined to a very small part of Constantinople, and his actual flock is numbered in thousands. Buildings, however wonderful (and I totally agree about Agios Sophia, it is breathtakingly wonderful) are less important than people; but, of course, what has happened to the one has to the other.
The biggest problem is the way the Turkish government is using immigration policy and building restrictions to eradicate the Orthodox community in Constantinople.
The theological seminary at Halki has been closed for years, which makes it very difficult to produce "home-grown" priests of Turkish nationality, which is what the Turks are demanding. At the same time, however, they make it extremely difficult for priests from Greece to get residency in Turkey, or to obtain citizenship, which would allow them to serve the people.
What happens to Agia Sophia, although of great importance, is mainly an issue of heritage, pride and symbolism.
The issue regarding immigration and the closure of the Halki seminary, however, has much more serious and immediate consequences on the Orthodox population of Constantinople.
http://www.hagiasophiablog.com/mainpage.html
The attempt by the Chalcedonians to make the non-Chalcedonians accept their Christology helped weaken the hold of the Empire on Egypt and Palestine; the Chalcedonian schism between East and West meant that the latter, far from helping preserve Agios Sophia and Constantinople, stormed the latter and sacked the former in 1204, thus hastening the end of the Empire in the East. I am not apportioning blame here, simply pointing out that we Christians have our own disunity to thank for losing the cradle of the Faith to the Muslims. We do precious little to help our Christian brothers and sisters in the region now - indeed the recent events in Iraq have put that ancient Christian community in grave peril of extinction.
If the fate of Agios Sophia is, indeed a 'Christian disappointment' perhaps that is because we, the Christians, are a sad disappointment ourselves. Perhaps, one day, we may learn the lesson of disunity - but I would not hold my breath.
In Christ.
John
Orthodox11 makes some excellent points. The sad fact is that Agios Sophia was lost to Christians long ago; who knows, at some point we may even wake up to the fact that one of the reasons why the Muslims were able to conquer the Eastern Roman Empire was the split between Christians.
This is certainly the case. "Every kingdom divided against itself shall not stand." A divided Christendom made conquest very easy for the Muslims.
It seems to me though that the Muslim presence in the Orthodox world is a bit like the plaster over the icons in Agia Sophia.
Although largely hidden from sight, what has remained has been preserved in tact, retaining its former glory.
The west, however, where Christianity was never threatened in the same way seems to have been left out in the open and has withered away slowly but surely.
How are you? long time no heated debate.
The council of constantinople must have taken place in Agios Sophia - the evidence? The sign on the marble door on the 1st floor saying that that's where the meetings were held. HA HA!
And secondly, I went to Saint George's patriarchate in Fener (istanbul) and I met up with the patriarch; BELIEVE ME, Saint John's relics are not there. I double checked 100 times.
[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5232.msg70593#msg70593 date=1178209703]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5232.msg70208#msg70208 date=1177191856]
Dear All,
I'm writing this message from Turkey - Istanbul Turkey. As you all probably know, this was Constantinople. We still call this city constantinople in our Liturgy - never istanbul.
The council of Nicea, the Council of Constantinople, the Council of Ephesus ALL took place in this country.
The Council of Constantinople took place on the top floor gallery of Agios Sophia between two huge marble doors. The Great Basilica commissioned by Saint Constantine, and Theodosius.
The Church is so brilliant, and magnificent that the Roman Catholic's even constructed Saint Peter's Basilica based on this Basilica - but just a little larger.
Not just the Roman Catholics. Take a look at all the Ottoman mosques around Turkey, or even Egypt, which have been based on Agia Sophia! They didn't destroy the icons; they plastered over them. Ironically, this has protected the icons from wear and tear and has actually preserved them very well considering their age. Some restoration work has been done, although a lot more is needed. Actually, there was a petition going around for people to sign, demanding that the Turks must return Agia Sophia to the Orthodox if they want entry to the EU. The relics of St. John Chrysostom was taken to Rome by the Catholic crusaders. Most of them were returned by the late Pope John Paul II last year as a sign of good will towards the Orthodox. I think they now rest in St. George's church in the Patriarchate. Sadly, this has been the case since the dawn of Islam. Even St. Catherine's monastery in Sinai has a small mosque inside it, and the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem has a special section for Muslims wanting to see the birthplace of "Isa al Rasul". Agia Sophia was not constructed until centuries later by Emperor Justinian, and so the Council did not take place in the existing Basilica.
But it still has great significance. In the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom used by the Byzantine churches, prior to the Creed the deacon still says "the doors, the doors, Wisdom let us attend." I've heard this refers to the time when Constantinople (Byzantium) was still a Christian city. The people would begin the Liturgy in the small parish churches, then they would all walk in procession to the church of Holy Wisdom (Agia Sophia), where the deacon would say "the doors, the doors, Wisdom let us attend" and the people would enter the Basillica and proceed with the final part of the Liturgy.
The council of constantinople must have taken place in Agios Sophia - the evidence? The sign on the marble door on the 1st floor saying that that's where the meetings were held. HA HA!
Only one problem. The Council of Constantinople was held in 381 A.D. The current Basilica was built by Emperor Justinian in 537 A.D.
Nothing remains of the first church in which the Council of Constantinople was held. Hmmm, I don't know where he's hiding them then. I do know that His All Holiness went to Rome a while back to meet John Paul II and received the relics of St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory of Nyssa, and that he took them back to Constantinople.
In any case, they're definately not in Agia Sophia.
Well, someone was holding meetings in that Church ? Who could it be? I even took a picture of the marble door with the sign saying "Meetings were held in this room". What meetings??
And where are the icons? I didn't see any icons? THere were no icons. There were only mosaic icons. And someone had obviously tried to remove the mosiac tiles...
I paid 10 turkish lira to get in and see the Church, and I think they must have showed me another building instead!!! ... That's why we shouldnt allow turkey into the EU.
[quote author=Orthodox11 link=topic=5232.msg70629#msg70629 date=1178319135]
[quote author=vassilios link=topic=5232.msg70626#msg70626 date=1178317741]
The council of constantinople must have taken place in Agios Sophia - the evidence? The sign on the marble door on the 1st floor saying that that's where the meetings were held. HA HA!
Only one problem. The Council of Constantinople was held in 381 A.D. The current Basilica was built by Emperor Justinian in 537 A.D.
Nothing remains of the first church in which the Council of Constantinople was held. Hmmm, I don't know where he's hiding them then. I do know that His All Holiness went to Rome a while back to meet John Paul II and received the relics of St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory of Nyssa, and that he took them back to Constantinople.
In any case, they're definately not in Agia Sophia.
Are you telling us that the Turks have put up a misleading notice in a building which they stole from the Christians? That, I guess, would be a really big shock! ;)
Given the inability of the Turkish authorities to admit to their own history, most notably the fate of the millions of Armenians killed during the First World War, I guess one can hardly express too much surprise at their getting an event from the ancient world wrong.
Orthodox11 makes an interesting point about the fate of Christianity in the West, but I really wouldn't be that pessimistic; one could hardly look at the USA and say Christianity was dying there; Orthodoxy itself is growing there. We should never despair about the Faith - we have His assurance that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
In Christ,
John