[quote author=marmara327 link=board=12;threadid=4177;start=30#msg64437 date=1165368699] [quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=board=12;threadid=4177;start=30#msg64431 date=1165367018] Becarefull or they go BOOM BOOM TAKH!!
has anyone ever defended their beliefs (christianity)? has sumone tried to change ur mind but ur beliefs stood firm becoz of ur love for christ.........
so how can we generalise and say that muslims cant stand to be wrong wen they are HUMAN too, no one likes being wrong, we defend our faith as hard as we can
they rely are rong. actually. they believe in different things and they dont even make sense sometimes. im not tryin to be meen but im juss sayin. mi frend in school is muslim. wen we told her she could convert, she said god would get mad. but i think that god will want her to convert to christians.
muslims and christiand are total opposites. ask ur father in confession. wat will he say?/
[quote author=mahraeel link=board=12;threadid=4177;start=30#msg67019 date=1170450634] they rely are rong. actually. they believe in different things and they dont even make sense sometimes. im not tryin to be meen but im juss sayin. mi frend in school is muslim. wen we told her she could convert, she said god would get mad. but i think that god will want her to convert to christians.
muslims and christiand are total opposites. ask ur father in confession. wat will he say?/
wooooooooow bak up matey i didnt say wat they beleive or do isnt wrong i was trying to say that we all defend our faith and so do they i know christianity are completely diff, i wasnt implying their similar my point was that we shudnt be generalsing and say muslims cant stand to be wrong
ALrighty, In the Quran, Islam belive that "3esu will come and burn the cross" "Marriage is ok to 9 yr old" They also belive that they are not a Violent religion, and when someone says they are they go and get their weapons and bomb churchs and kill christians etc...... I even saw in the news that they put signs says "Denmark, Your Sept 11, 2001 is coming next" because of the pictures they put of their prophet Mohamad. Abona Zakaria, he describs their Quran, and he found more than one thing that doesn't make sense, and when he was trying to talk about and explain it, Islam Sheokh critize him, and they'd kill him if he was in egypt. I am not saying Islam people are bad, I have Islam friends and I think alot of them, we alawys have a good time togather better than the girls in church. ;)
Guys, Iqbal said he would prefer it if we didnt discuss other faiths.
My suggestion is therefore to read any literature by Walaa Sultan who was a muslim - until her professor was shot dead by members of the muslim brotherhood. AFter which point, she started questioning "their God", and "her God" . WHen members of an islamic group bombed hotels in Amman (Jordan), muslims were trying to understand how could this be the "islam" they were raised with.
I think the Islam that every Christian is raised with from the Middle East, is not the same Islam that muslims are raised with; there's a double standard; and even when muslims suffer at the hand of their faith, they ask the same questions; therefore, although we love muslims, i can see that there could be some tensions concerning the practice of islam when directed towards non muslims.
Vassilios is quite correct, and we should respect Iqbal's wish that we do not write about the faith of others in a derogatory way.
This thread started with a question that should make us all think - namely why some Christians do not show the same level of seriousness and devotion to our Faith as some Muslims show to theirs. It is a salutary reminder that we can all learn from others about piety and devotion.
Those Muslims who plant bombs may think they serve their God, but they do not; they do not do their faith any credit. Those many faithful and devout Muslims who submit to the will of God are a credit to their faith and an example of devotion from which we can all learn.
Wherever one looks, in any faith, there are those who are drawn to it because it can provide a justification for some power issue they have in their life. Our job, as Christians, is to show thorugh our behaviour whose disciples we are; so then people will say 'why can't (say) an atheist be more like a Christian?'
So, the original question is a good one, and it directs us towards the beam that is in our own eye - before we go about commenting on the number of motes in the eyes of others! Fortunately for those of us in the Coptic Orthodox Church, we have excellent spiritual direction to point us where we ought to be.
Dear all, I am sorry that I couldn't run through all your comments as the post is too long for me to follow. But, I just want to reply to what matt88 said, and I disagree with some of the members there. If some Christians did react to the Da Vinci code, or whatever other insult brough on Christianity, I wouldn't agree with this. Christ didn't teach us to return the insults or even complain; we are not like Muslims who would go too far in even spilling bloods and killing those who insulted them. I didn't forget that Christ asked the one who slapped him on the face why he did so, and if it was for a good reason, but remember, that was only one incident in the whole Gospel. The Bible says that Jesus was like a silent sheep into her slaughter. My exception is when it comes to those insults being utilised politically like in Egypt, where Muslims oppress Christians to get power, and money, etc. Remember, also, that it is only because a lot of these Christians are silent and good retalliators, that many Muslims do convert. After all, this is just my personal opinion, but I strongly agree with what the other member said (can't just remember the nickname; the member with Ireland's flag), as I think he has got his comments based on facts, and not only a personal opinion like me. God bless you all and please pray for me
I agreee, some christians responded to the da vinci code, but their reaction was nowhere near as comparable as the muslim response to the cartoons. When the cartoons were released muslims protested in nearly every muslim country, and in fact some people even died at the time (through stampedes or something). Muslims even organised economic boycotts of Denmark, and other European countries that published the cartoons.
Meanwhile, what did we do when the da vinci code was released? Really, on the whole, a majority of Christians around the world didnt care. Sure there were some groups that voiced their concern (coptics included) about the movie, but most people couldnt care. Its really a fact i guess that christians are generally not as devout as muslims. You can compare so much to see this - muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day, most christians dont even pray, muslims fast ramadan, most christians dont fast, muslims also go to the mosque more than christians go to church. Really (and its sad to see) christians around the world just arent proper christians in the proper sense of the world (i.e. following the the word of christ, or even the the traditions of the various churches).
That is all not to say that muslims are better than christians, far from it. But what i am saying is that Sara Gharoub has a point - muslims are (on the whole) more active in their religion than most christians.
Also, please no one try and compare the coptic church into this, because to be honest we all know that our church is rather exceptional in terms of its true orthodoxy, fasts that do etc.
Rabana Maak,
Matt
As Christians, we are taught to turn the other cheek. We proved the DaVinci Code wrong using books, meetings, etc. We didn't need to kill people or use violence to prove our point, like the Muslims did.
You are so right; by not behaving in the way in which those of some other faiths have behaved, we have shown whose disciples we are.
One of the massively impressive things about the Coptic Church is the manner of its witness; despite provocations its members obey what Our Lord said; they do not pick up the sword and try to cut off someone's ear. That is, perhaps, one of the many reasons why Coptic Orthodoxy has a special 'feel' to it.
It is easy to be a Christian when no one notices it; even easier when those around you are, or when the society of which you are part is founded on Christian value; to do it when none of those things are true is the mark of true Faith. To do it when it can be dangerous is, indeed the greatest witness to the suffering servant who died upon the Cross that we might have life.
may be a simple way deal with all of wha'ts goind on of fake christianity around us to teach what's rit. our faith is our weapon. no one can take that from us. basiclly that's what HH and his brothers the bishops do. teach a teaching with the teaching.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4177.msg69669#msg69669 date=1176402675] may be a simple way deal with all of wha'ts goind on of fake christianity around us to teach what's rit. our faith is our weapon. no one can take that from us. basiclly that's what HH and his brothers the bishops do. teach a teaching with the teaching.
im confused -MiNaGiR-, what do you mean by fake christian? is that in regards to ppl who say they are christian but their walk in life does not reflect their christian values and what differentiates us is our *FaItH*
[quote author=kerestina link=topic=4177.msg69696#msg69696 date=1176469616] [quote author=minagir link=topic=4177.msg69669#msg69669 date=1176402675] may be a simple way deal with all of wha'ts goind on of fake christianity around us to teach what's rit. our faith is our weapon. no one can take that from us. basiclly that's what HH and his brothers the bishops do. teach a teaching with the teaching.
im confused -MiNaGiR-, what do you mean by fake christian? is that in regards to ppl who say they are christian but their walk in life does not reflect their christian values and what differentiates us is our *FaItH*
will you can put it that way to. but the way i meant it is the christians who just don't like our church or the belife that they were taught and raised upon, so what do they do, the make there church and start to attack other true belifes like urs as Orthodox people. that count all kind of heritics and those that are in the same catagory.
i think most religions attempt to justify that what they belive is the true faith by noting weakness or 'attacking' as you say other churches but it also refers to pure comparison, how often do ppl compare religions?. religion can be a sensitive topic depending of the person your talking to but we all hold our truths about our religion and stand firm in our beliefs, so matter how many ppl tell you, your following the wrong faith, it wont change them, they themselves need to notice the need for change.
You speak well. He tells us to love each other that the world might know whose disciples we are; it is a good thing to follow that lead. We are mired in sin, yet He emptied Himself and made Himself like to us in everything save sin, that He might save us.
Some will say that by 'us' he meant only their Church. So, they know the mind of God do they? They think they can limit the limitless love of God; how like sinful man to presume so.
It is better, and more humble, to accept that salvation is in the hands of the Lord. We in the Coptic Church believe that the fullness of the Faith is found in the teachings of the Holy Mother Church; but we do not presume to tell Our Lord who is and who is not to be saved. Those who do criticise other Christians need to think about whether, in so doing, they are doing His work.
My view would be that we, in the Coptic Church, are the fortunate inheritors of the glorious tradition of the ancient undivided Church; we naturally welcome anyone who wishes to know the fulness of the Faith we enjoy; but we do not create scandal by criticising others as being 'fakes'. As you say, others are sincere.
Where one draws a line is with those who deny the Trinity - such as the Jehovah's Witnesses; they are not within the Christian tradition; and we must pray that they are enlightened.
The Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, the Anglicans, the Protestants, all these are Trinitarians; from our way of thinking they have all either added or subtracted something from the Faith once delivered to the Apostles; they think similar things about us. We know they are wrong in that; they know we are wrong -- and so on and so forth. Such arguments are usually a waste of time.
The Copts show their love of God through their daily witness; how true they are to the teachings of Our Lord, and how they walk in His ways. It is that that wins people like to as converts - not brash arguments or high-pressure evangelism; just simple, humble, massively impressive Christian witness. I read the words of HH Pope Shenouda III, and I rejoice at the enlightenment I get from him; a truly holy, humble servant of the Risen Lord - may he be given many more years among his people.
i jus wanted to make one brief point............i agree who are we to judge whom enters heaven and who doesnt, we are as much as sinners as the next person but its what we make of the aftermath that counts not so much the sin itself.......................i wouldnt argue with anyone whether they are a 'fake' christian or not......no matter morman or jehova.... relisaion only comes through proof through the bible......this is for God to judge...........but my point is that we all hold our own truths in regards to the true faith and that we could argue all day with a catholic for example but unless they see what we see, it will never become clear to them the rationale for our beliefs.........
You are right. There is little profit in such arguments. However, when it comes to non-Trinitarians, and indeed, non Christians, such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, we have to accept that they are simply wrong. Their teachings are not Trinitarian or Christian in any Orthodox sense. This is not true of Roman Catholics, Protestants or Anglicans; they are all Trinitarian Christians who, like the Eastern Orthodox, see things a little differently than we do. But they all believe in the Risen Lord and the Redemption He brings; even if, to our way of believing, they have matters a little awry on some points.
If you read what HH Pope Shenouda III has written on the heresy of the JW's you will not go wrong; and, of course, if you read what he writes on Christ's divinity you will be edified and informed. The more I read of HH's writings, the more I see what a gift he is to us; may he have many years yet to teach his people.
*JoHn* i totally see what your saying and agree without a doubt that we need to accept non christains such as mormons as simply wrong but i wouldnt argue with them, that they are wrong. i tried it once with my mormon friend lol (bad idea), and just as i was firm in my faith so was he, he was determined and persistent to belive that his church was the true faith.......ok fine, which is why i belive ones actions send out a stronger msg than preaching per se....
What seems to be the piont for us is that WE are NOT SEEN as the Holy nation we are and were once seen as. WE have fallen into a secular 'this world' mentality. This is do to many reasons; most is due to too much western influence. The western mind is very carnal and self agrandizing. The western mind trusts the tangible, the physical....the "provable". Thus the the reason for so much kaos with the church over the years. Most of the critical heresies that ripped the church and scatterd the faith was due to western conditions and how those conditions impacted the church.
We that are eastern (non-European) are today more apt to except western "christian" behavior than our own. Just look at how people come to church today. This is not 'our' way. It is un-orthodox for us to come late, wear street cloths (all white was the norm for us; just look at the clergy), women showing areas of thier bodies. wearing make-up ( I have seen women take communion with lipstick and leave lipstick on crosses bibles, Icons, etc.).
We want to act, look and seem like common folk, non-beleivers....worldly (protestants).
Our kids have lost the orthodoxy which is taught from observation, presentation. Our young do not SEE the importance of looking like a true believer and why that is absolutely important. They however SEE the importance of looking like they are trying to be more like Britney Spears and the boys like gangster rappers.
We use Icons that are not in the eastern tradition (christ with blond hair and blue eyes). Many of us want to look like that too.
Who would have thought that an orthodox chirstian would place a statue on his house our church. We see that as normal now (use to be seen as RC). And maybe it is alright. But these are not the things that was found with the orthodox of long ago.
We have a worldly look and thus an implied wordly attitude (non-religious) which is commonly protestant. Others see this and judge us.
If we want to be seen (and thus be respected) as who we are than we need to make an adjustment to go back to what we are in spirit. If we really ARE living in line with our sprituality we would be inclined to EXHIBIT this character and in doing so get the attention from others that helps to increase RESPECT for the Holy Church of God. WE set the example.
We forget that the Mulsim faith has adopted our Orthodoxy from thier beginnings; inlcuding chanting, women being covered (only our nuns today unfortunately), women praying on the right side and men on the left and ALL standing for the whole service (we sit in pews at pionts now). All things so-called Islamic behaviors are from the Orthodox Church. In Ethiopia you can not tell a Orthodox from a Muslim. They all wear white during public prayer and orthodox women in Ethiopia cover thier whole body during service and it is considered an abomination for a women to take communion along with lip stick and make up. Ethiopians remove shoes for prayer (not just for communion) and so on. All these behaviors are seeminlgy "Islamic" to uneducated observers; I let them know that these are ancient Orthodox Christian traits which were around and in use long before the Muhammed was born.
WE must exhibit the Holiness we claim to have. If we exhibit something else we are thus hypocrates. You acn be sure that looking like a rapper is not Holiness ans wearing jeans that are too small and clothes that show the flesh is NOT holiness. We are in these cases excersisng our free will to be what we want to be. THAT IS PROTESTANT thinking.
Orhtodox follow the church in all ways of living. That is TRUE ORTHODOX MENTALITY.
Welcome to this forum - good to have you here and with such a strong voice.
I agree with much of what you say, but perhaps we should beware of just blaming something called 'the west'; that's too easy and allows us to ignore our own sinfulness. No one makes 'us' behave like 'the west', and not everyone there behaves in the deplorable way you rightly describe and criticise.
Heresies have been ripping at the unity of the Church since the time of the Apostles, as we see from the Holy and God-inspired writings of the Apostle and evangelist, St. John, with his warnings against those who preached incorrectly. So, although you are right in seeing the west as the source of many heresies, it inherited many of them; that doesn't excuse them, but reminds us not to blame others if we are sinful. So often, if we blame others it serves to excuse our own failings.
You are so right in so much that you say, but I do think that in the Orthodox Church we have succumbed less to these things than others have. However, you rightly remind us that we too have fallen into sin, even as we were conceived in it. Only through humility, repentance and prayer - and the Church, can we find His love and the salvation He brought us.
I look forward to reading more of your inspiring thoughts.
Comments
[quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=board=12;threadid=4177;start=30#msg64431 date=1165367018]
Becarefull or they go BOOM BOOM TAKH!!
lol boomboom takhh lol
:P LOL DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM AGAINST SA3iDA???
sure sure sure
PM me and I'll tell u :P
aywa keda........ feah nas mosh betegi gear men el 3ean el hamra!
u didn't PM yet :P
mosh 3iza shobha
:P
Rabana yesmhak
Rabana yesmhak
so how can we generalise and say that muslims cant stand to be wrong wen they are HUMAN too, no one likes being wrong, we defend our faith as hard as we can
am i wrong or right???
muslims and christiand are total opposites. ask ur father in confession. wat will he say?/
they rely are rong. actually. they believe in different things and they dont even make sense sometimes. im not tryin to be meen but im juss sayin. mi frend in school is muslim. wen we told her she could convert, she said god would get mad. but i think that god will want her to convert to christians.
muslims and christiand are total opposites. ask ur father in confession. wat will he say?/
wooooooooow bak up matey
i didnt say wat they beleive or do isnt wrong
i was trying to say that we all defend our faith and so do they
i know christianity are completely diff, i wasnt implying their similar
my point was that we shudnt be generalsing and say muslims cant stand to be wrong
Abona Zakaria, he describs their Quran, and he found more than one thing that doesn't make sense, and when he was trying to talk about and explain it, Islam Sheokh critize him, and they'd kill him if he was in egypt.
I am not saying Islam people are bad, I have Islam friends and I think alot of them, we alawys have a good time togather better than the girls in church.
;)
My suggestion is therefore to read any literature by Walaa Sultan who was a muslim - until her professor was shot dead by members of the muslim brotherhood. AFter which point, she started questioning "their God", and "her God" . WHen members of an islamic group bombed hotels in Amman (Jordan), muslims were trying to understand how could this be the "islam" they were raised with.
I think the Islam that every Christian is raised with from the Middle East, is not the same Islam that muslims are raised with; there's a double standard; and even when muslims suffer at the hand of their faith, they ask the same questions; therefore, although we love muslims, i can see that there could be some tensions concerning the practice of islam when directed towards non muslims.
This thread started with a question that should make us all think - namely why some Christians do not show the same level of seriousness and devotion to our Faith as some Muslims show to theirs. It is a salutary reminder that we can all learn from others about piety and devotion.
Those Muslims who plant bombs may think they serve their God, but they do not; they do not do their faith any credit. Those many faithful and devout Muslims who submit to the will of God are a credit to their faith and an example of devotion from which we can all learn.
Wherever one looks, in any faith, there are those who are drawn to it because it can provide a justification for some power issue they have in their life. Our job, as Christians, is to show thorugh our behaviour whose disciples we are; so then people will say 'why can't (say) an atheist be more like a Christian?'
So, the original question is a good one, and it directs us towards the beam that is in our own eye - before we go about commenting on the number of motes in the eyes of others! Fortunately for those of us in the Coptic Orthodox Church, we have excellent spiritual direction to point us where we ought to be.
In Christ,
John
I am sorry that I couldn't run through all your comments as the post is too long for me to follow. But, I just want to reply to what matt88 said, and I disagree with some of the members there.
If some Christians did react to the Da Vinci code, or whatever other insult brough on Christianity, I wouldn't agree with this. Christ didn't teach us to return the insults or even complain; we are not like Muslims who would go too far in even spilling bloods and killing those who insulted them. I didn't forget that Christ asked the one who slapped him on the face why he did so, and if it was for a good reason, but remember, that was only one incident in the whole Gospel. The Bible says that Jesus was like a silent sheep into her slaughter.
My exception is when it comes to those insults being utilised politically like in Egypt, where Muslims oppress Christians to get power, and money, etc. Remember, also, that it is only because a lot of these Christians are silent and good retalliators, that many Muslims do convert.
After all, this is just my personal opinion, but I strongly agree with what the other member said (can't just remember the nickname; the member with Ireland's flag), as I think he has got his comments based on facts, and not only a personal opinion like me.
God bless you all and please pray for me
Sorry that I forgot your name in my last post.
God bless you and mention me in your prayers please
Kristina,
I agreee, some christians responded to the da vinci code, but their reaction was nowhere near as comparable as the muslim response to the cartoons. When the cartoons were released muslims protested in nearly every muslim country, and in fact some people even died at the time (through stampedes or something). Muslims even organised economic boycotts of Denmark, and other European countries that published the cartoons.
Meanwhile, what did we do when the da vinci code was released? Really, on the whole, a majority of Christians around the world didnt care. Sure there were some groups that voiced their concern (coptics included) about the movie, but most people couldnt care. Its really a fact i guess that christians are generally not as devout as muslims. You can compare so much to see this - muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day, most christians dont even pray, muslims fast ramadan, most christians dont fast, muslims also go to the mosque more than christians go to church. Really (and its sad to see) christians around the world just arent proper christians in the proper sense of the world (i.e. following the the word of christ, or even the the traditions of the various churches).
That is all not to say that muslims are better than christians, far from it. But what i am saying is that Sara Gharoub has a point - muslims are (on the whole) more active in their religion than most christians.
Also, please no one try and compare the coptic church into this, because to be honest we all know that our church is rather exceptional in terms of its true orthodoxy, fasts that do etc.
Rabana Maak,
Matt
As Christians, we are taught to turn the other cheek. We proved the DaVinci Code wrong using books, meetings, etc. We didn't need to kill people or use violence to prove our point, like the Muslims did.
You are so right; by not behaving in the way in which those of some other faiths have behaved, we have shown whose disciples we are.
One of the massively impressive things about the Coptic Church is the manner of its witness; despite provocations its members obey what Our Lord said; they do not pick up the sword and try to cut off someone's ear. That is, perhaps, one of the many reasons why Coptic Orthodoxy has a special 'feel' to it.
It is easy to be a Christian when no one notices it; even easier when those around you are, or when the society of which you are part is founded on Christian value; to do it when none of those things are true is the mark of true Faith. To do it when it can be dangerous is, indeed the greatest witness to the suffering servant who died upon the Cross that we might have life.
In the Risen Christ,
John
may be a simple way deal with all of wha'ts goind on of fake christianity around us to teach what's rit. our faith is our weapon. no one can take that from us. basiclly that's what HH and his brothers the bishops do. teach a teaching with the teaching.
im confused -MiNaGiR-, what do you mean by fake christian? is that in regards to ppl who say they are christian but their walk in life does not reflect their christian values and what differentiates us is our *FaItH*
[quote author=minagir link=topic=4177.msg69669#msg69669 date=1176402675]
may be a simple way deal with all of wha'ts goind on of fake christianity around us to teach what's rit. our faith is our weapon. no one can take that from us. basiclly that's what HH and his brothers the bishops do. teach a teaching with the teaching.
im confused -MiNaGiR-, what do you mean by fake christian? is that in regards to ppl who say they are christian but their walk in life does not reflect their christian values and what differentiates us is our *FaItH*
will you can put it that way to. but the way i meant it is the christians who just don't like our church or the belife that they were taught and raised upon, so what do they do, the make there church and start to attack other true belifes like urs as Orthodox people. that count all kind of heritics and those that are in the same catagory.
God bless and take care
You speak well. He tells us to love each other that the world might know whose disciples we are; it is a good thing to follow that lead. We are mired in sin, yet He emptied Himself and made Himself like to us in everything save sin, that He might save us.
Some will say that by 'us' he meant only their Church. So, they know the mind of God do they? They think they can limit the limitless love of God; how like sinful man to presume so.
It is better, and more humble, to accept that salvation is in the hands of the Lord. We in the Coptic Church believe that the fullness of the Faith is found in the teachings of the Holy Mother Church; but we do not presume to tell Our Lord who is and who is not to be saved. Those who do criticise other Christians need to think about whether, in so doing, they are doing His work.
My view would be that we, in the Coptic Church, are the fortunate inheritors of the glorious tradition of the ancient undivided Church; we naturally welcome anyone who wishes to know the fulness of the Faith we enjoy; but we do not create scandal by criticising others as being 'fakes'. As you say, others are sincere.
Where one draws a line is with those who deny the Trinity - such as the Jehovah's Witnesses; they are not within the Christian tradition; and we must pray that they are enlightened.
The Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, the Anglicans, the Protestants, all these are Trinitarians; from our way of thinking they have all either added or subtracted something from the Faith once delivered to the Apostles; they think similar things about us. We know they are wrong in that; they know we are wrong -- and so on and so forth. Such arguments are usually a waste of time.
The Copts show their love of God through their daily witness; how true they are to the teachings of Our Lord, and how they walk in His ways. It is that that wins people like to as converts - not brash arguments or high-pressure evangelism; just simple, humble, massively impressive Christian witness. I read the words of HH Pope Shenouda III, and I rejoice at the enlightenment I get from him; a truly holy, humble servant of the Risen Lord - may he be given many more years among his people.
In the Risen Christ,
John
i jus wanted to make one brief point............i agree who are we to judge whom enters heaven and who doesnt, we are as much as sinners as the next person but its what we make of the aftermath that counts not so much the sin itself.......................i wouldnt argue with anyone whether they are a 'fake' christian or not......no matter morman or jehova.... relisaion only comes through proof through the bible......this is for God to judge...........but my point is that we all hold our own truths in regards to the true faith and that we could argue all day with a catholic for example but unless they see what we see, it will never become clear to them the rationale for our beliefs.........
God bless n take care
You are right. There is little profit in such arguments. However, when it comes to non-Trinitarians, and indeed, non Christians, such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, we have to accept that they are simply wrong. Their teachings are not Trinitarian or Christian in any Orthodox sense. This is not true of Roman Catholics, Protestants or Anglicans; they are all Trinitarian Christians who, like the Eastern Orthodox, see things a little differently than we do. But they all believe in the Risen Lord and the Redemption He brings; even if, to our way of believing, they have matters a little awry on some points.
If you read what HH Pope Shenouda III has written on the heresy of the JW's you will not go wrong; and, of course, if you read what he writes on Christ's divinity you will be edified and informed. The more I read of HH's writings, the more I see what a gift he is to us; may he have many years yet to teach his people.
In the Risen Christ,
John
*JoHn*
i totally see what your saying and agree without a doubt that we need to accept non christains such as mormons as simply wrong but i wouldnt argue with them, that they are wrong. i tried it once with my mormon friend lol (bad idea), and just as i was firm in my faith so was he, he was determined and persistent to belive that his church was the true faith.......ok fine, which is why i belive ones actions send out a stronger msg than preaching per se....
God bless n take care buddy
You are quite right. Some of these people try to draw people into arguments so they can unsettle their faith and try to 'convert' them.
Just do what you rightly say - live your faith and love the Lord.
In Christ,
John
What seems to be the piont for us is that WE are NOT SEEN as the Holy nation we are and were once seen as. WE have fallen into a secular 'this world' mentality. This is do to many reasons; most is due to too much western influence. The western mind is very carnal and self agrandizing. The western mind trusts the tangible, the physical....the "provable". Thus the the reason for so much kaos with the church over the years. Most of the critical heresies that ripped the church and scatterd the faith was due to western conditions and how those conditions impacted the church.
We that are eastern (non-European) are today more apt to except western "christian" behavior than our own. Just look at how people come to church today. This is not 'our' way. It is un-orthodox for us to come late, wear street cloths (all white was the norm for us; just look at the clergy), women showing areas of thier bodies. wearing make-up ( I have seen women take communion with lipstick and leave lipstick on crosses bibles, Icons, etc.).
We want to act, look and seem like common folk, non-beleivers....worldly (protestants).
Our kids have lost the orthodoxy which is taught from observation, presentation. Our young do not SEE the importance of looking like a true believer and why that is absolutely important. They however SEE the importance of looking like they are trying to be more like Britney Spears and the boys like gangster rappers.
We use Icons that are not in the eastern tradition (christ with blond hair and blue eyes). Many of us want to look like that too.
Who would have thought that an orthodox chirstian would place a statue on his house our church. We see that as normal now (use to be seen as RC). And maybe it is alright. But these are not the things that was found with the orthodox of long ago.
We have a worldly look and thus an implied wordly attitude (non-religious) which is commonly protestant. Others see this and judge us.
If we want to be seen (and thus be respected) as who we are than we need to make an adjustment to go back to what we are in spirit. If we really ARE living in line with our sprituality we would be inclined to EXHIBIT this character and in doing so get the attention from others that helps to increase RESPECT for the Holy Church of God. WE set the example.
We forget that the Mulsim faith has adopted our Orthodoxy from thier beginnings; inlcuding chanting, women being covered (only our nuns today unfortunately), women praying on the right side and men on the left and ALL standing for the whole service (we sit in pews at pionts now). All things so-called Islamic behaviors are from the Orthodox Church. In Ethiopia you can not tell a Orthodox from a Muslim. They all wear white during public prayer and orthodox women in Ethiopia cover thier whole body during service and it is considered an abomination for a women to take communion along with lip stick and make up. Ethiopians remove shoes for prayer (not just for communion) and so on. All these behaviors are seeminlgy "Islamic" to uneducated observers; I let them know that these are ancient Orthodox Christian traits which were around and in use long before the Muhammed was born.
WE must exhibit the Holiness we claim to have. If we exhibit something else we are thus hypocrates. You acn be sure that looking like a rapper is not Holiness ans wearing jeans that are too small and clothes that show the flesh is NOT holiness. We are in these cases excersisng our free will to be what we want to be. THAT IS PROTESTANT thinking.
Orhtodox follow the church in all ways of living. That is TRUE ORTHODOX MENTALITY.
Welcome to this forum - good to have you here and with such a strong voice.
I agree with much of what you say, but perhaps we should beware of just blaming something called 'the west'; that's too easy and allows us to ignore our own sinfulness. No one makes 'us' behave like 'the west', and not everyone there behaves in the deplorable way you rightly describe and criticise.
Heresies have been ripping at the unity of the Church since the time of the Apostles, as we see from the Holy and God-inspired writings of the Apostle and evangelist, St. John, with his warnings against those who preached incorrectly. So, although you are right in seeing the west as the source of many heresies, it inherited many of them; that doesn't excuse them, but reminds us not to blame others if we are sinful. So often, if we blame others it serves to excuse our own failings.
You are so right in so much that you say, but I do think that in the Orthodox Church we have succumbed less to these things than others have. However, you rightly remind us that we too have fallen into sin, even as we were conceived in it. Only through humility, repentance and prayer - and the Church, can we find His love and the salvation He brought us.
I look forward to reading more of your inspiring thoughts.
In Christ,
John