Adultery

wfhanna1

Here is a conversation between a friend of mine and i trying to define adultery
Hopefully you guys can help us out
I am homer the egyptian king lol ;D

Me:well tech sex tht happenes b4 marriage is otuside marriage and is adultery
Jessica: no, you have to be married or in a committed relationship where having sex with people other the one you are with is not allowed
Homer The Egyptian King: i agree witht he marriage part but disagree with the committed realtionship part
Jessica: so if i had sex with someone other than justin then that wouldn't be considered adultery?
Homer The Egyptian King: srry but if u had sex with justin b4 u marry him tht is considered adultery
Jessica: i think you're missing the point of the commandment
Homer The Egyptian King: am i? enlight me then
Jessica: it protects the sancity of marriage, some people don't get officially married but they are committed to their partner and may feel married even though they're not married so this should apply to them too
Jessica: when you have sex with someone other than that person it is adultery
Homer The Egyptian King: ok so i tell u today i love u and i feel like u r my wife then u wll just sleep with me and tht is not considered adultery
Jessica: why would it be adultery to sleep with the person that you are committed to
Jessica: you can't cheat on them with them
Homer The Egyptian King: but wat makes it right
Homer The Egyptian King: wat makes it not adultery
Jessica: the fact that you're not cheating on the person
Jessica: if premarital sex isn't against your personal beliefs then how is it adultery
Homer The Egyptian King: what gives u the rite to sleep with tht person bc u said a word tht i am committed to u gave u tht right
Jessica: because it's my life
Jessica: that's what gives me the right
Homer The Egyptian King: well r u considering tht under the catholic rules
Jessica: see, this is the problem that i have with organized religion
Jessica: it forces people to live their lives by someone else's rules and doctrines all in the name of God
Homer The Egyptian King: well i guess u really had tht coming when u accepted the Catholic faith
Jessica: meaning?
Homer The Egyptian King: u accepted to live by those relgion rules and doctrines

Mark423

Matthew 5:28

"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

According to that you don’t even have to take part in any sexual acts to commit adultery…

Jessica’s argument stated that you aren’t married to anybody so you aren’t cheating on anybody so its not adultery, the fact of the matter is, you are cheating on somebody. You’re cheating on god…

When you have a debate with a person who doesn’t have the readiness to accept any ideas and are closed mined in that sense it is, I hate to say this, almost impossible to change their views. Sadly our human nature rarely lets us just listen to people when they advise us, rather we must feel the heat of the candle so that we believe that it’s hot. In this case, I feel your friend isn’t opening her mind, instead she feels that religion is trying to change her life style and that organized religion is holding her back. I feel this might make her dismiss many of the points you make because any points you make are based on our Coptic faith, if she doesn’t believe in this and she is convinced pre martial sex is justified; it will be hard to make her change her mind. Same thing happens when you argue moral values with atheists. Your source of argument is you bible, but to them the bible is just a book and nothing more. Anyway, I don’t think that we should stop trying to talk to people just because they aren’t Coptic; I’m just stating that it is much more difficult.

In closing…

Though you grind a fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed grain, Yet his foolishness will not depart from him. (Proverbs 27:22)

-Mark

wfhanna1

i did use that verse but i don't remember what happened to it in the middle it went somewhere.
Jessica is not a bad person i guess she just doesn't like all the church rules and doctrine
and for you who are interested now we moved to how we don't have to go to church every sunday to meet God then to the Bible ::)
so if you guys are interested in reading those two let me know

mike_henain

ya, it would be intresting, plz post them.


Defender

wfhanna1

here is where we left off from the other one

well i guess u really had tht coming when u accepted the Catholic faith
Jessica: meaning?
Homer The Egyptian King: u accepted to live by those relgion rules and doctrines
Jessica: no, i didn't
Jessica: like you, i was born into this, i didn't chose it
Homer The Egyptian King: but u have the choice to get out of it hto
Jessica: i have since formed my own opinions which shape my faith as it is today
Homer The Egyptian King: again do u c ur faith under the Christian church rules or not
Jessica: i see them under my own rules
Homer The Egyptian King: so now there is the jessican relgion cool
Jessica: my problem with organized religion is that it makes it's followers narrow-minded, they're glued to what the church tells them they should believe rather than forming their own opinions and they will fight tooth and nail to tell anyone who doesn't believe exactly what they believe that they're wrong
Jessica: and i'm sorry, but i think religion should be more about acceptance than persecution and name calling
Homer The Egyptian King: yes but look at it this way if it was JUST acceptance wouldn't thousands of ideas came up tht ppl wouldn't know what to do with them
Homer The Egyptian King: for example u know how our church has no offical statement on dating, dancing, and other stuff
Homer The Egyptian King: and u know how hard and how crazy it is for ppl to justify their answered and point of view and until now they still don't agree on one point of view
Jessica: so what you're saying is that because it may be difficult then you shouldn't try to model yourself in God's image (because if you will remember he was all about acceptance/forgiveness) and it's is then ok to persecute others for their beliefs like his son was persecuted for his beliefs
Homer The Egyptian King: i agree with tht but religion with no rules is total disaster
Jessica: why
Jessica: religion is what you make of it and no one can tell you that you have to do something that you don't believe in just because it's in the doctrine
Homer The Egyptian King: bc we r humans and anything without rules is a disater
Homer The Egyptian King: i am not saying i am doing something tht i don't believe in
Homer The Egyptian King: but the adultery thing i do agree with the church doctrine about it
Jessica: that's what the law is for, to provide structure for society to abide by so as not to create mass-hysteria
Homer The Egyptian King: brb
Jessica: ok
Homer The Egyptian King: k abck
Homer The Egyptian King: by there r law for society and there r law for religion
Jessica: yes, there are laws for both...the laws for society govern all people so why do you need to complicate your lives with laws for religion as well
Jessica: if you didn't have the stringent religion laws life wouldn't be as chaotic as you think because there would still be the society's laws
Homer The Egyptian King: bc tht is the way the world was created rules everywhere
Jessica: maybe so, but the world isn't going to end just because you don't go to mass on sundays
Jessica: life will not become chaotic
Homer The Egyptian King: if u don't go at all i guess ur spritiual life would end
Homer The Egyptian King: i know there is the direct realtion btw u and God but still those rules add and increase tht spritiual connection
Homer The Egyptian King: wait a sec how in earth did u and i end up talking about religious and spiritual live
Jessica: you can be spiritually connected without going to church
Homer The Egyptian King: not as high tho
Jessica: where does it say in the bible that you can the only worship in a church
Jessica: you find me that
Homer The Egyptian King: Jesus said "Do this in rememberance of ,Me" in the last supper and idk except if u r an exception u can't do tht in ur house
Homer The Egyptian King: a Priest who is higly sprititual (supposely) does tht
Homer The Egyptian King: bc he is the closest forum to Jesus on earth
Jessica: that's bullshit
Homer The Egyptian King: WHY
Homer The Egyptian King: how is it
Jessica: i can't have dinner with my friends on a thursday night in my house?
Jessica: the last supper was about embracing eachother in harmony
Homer The Egyptian King: tht is different from from the last supper
Homer The Egyptian King: ok embracing each one in harmoney but u think u r good enough (sorry for using tht expression) to relive and redo what Jesus did
Jessica: i'm not saying that i'm good enough
Jessica: but some stone and cement doens't make it any better
Jessica: and that's all a church is
Jessica: it's a building
Jessica: and i do agree that it is God
Jessica: but so is a tree
Jessica: or a book
Jessica: God is everything and everything is God
Jessica: not just what a doctrine says it is
Homer The Egyptian King: but here we r going back to teh old testament and how God Himslef said build me a house
Jessica: yes, but the house is just a meeting place, it's not the end-all place of worship
Homer The Egyptian King: but it is the place tht HE wants ppl to meet in so u wanna change tht
Jessica: it was an offering
Homer The Egyptian King: wat was an offering
Homer The Egyptian King: the temples u mean
Jessica: yes
Homer The Egyptian King: well even b4 the temples God used to live in a tent
it is like moving from an apprt to a house
Jessica: so it's an upgrade, but does it really devalue the tent
Homer The Egyptian King: yes but the tent was His house
Homer The Egyptian King: again it was His house he didn't live in anyone's else tent
Jessica: well would you consider everything to be HI
Jessica: his*
Homer The Egyptian King: well ya
Jessica: do you see my point of view, though
Jessica: by being so strict in your beliefs you're really limiting his power
Homer The Egyptian King: no not yet
Homer The Egyptian King: no bc i do believe in the verse if 2 or mor meet under my name I will be there
Homer The Egyptian King: BUT
Jessica: ok
Homer The Egyptian King: i am wrkign on it
Homer The Egyptian King: back in the old testemeant
Homer The Egyptian King: only the high priest could go to the deepest of the tent and now we c the altar in the church as tht deepest part in the tent and by Christ dying he allows us all to go tht deep
Homer The Egyptian King: and thus we go to church
Jessica: true
Jessica: but think about this...
Jessica:which gospel was written by Jesus
Homer The Egyptian King: ALL OF THEM
Jessica: wrong, none of them
Homer The Egyptian King: nope
Jessica: they were written by other people in his time about him
Homer The Egyptian King: because they were all written by the Holy Spirit which is part of the Trinity
Jessica: so John was part of the holy spirit and not a real person
Homer The Egyptian King: NOOOOO it was wriiten by John inspired (or acutally told to him) by the Holly Spirit
Jessica: but unless it was written first hand by the holy spirit it's open to interpretation
Homer The Egyptian King: it is def open to interpretation
Jessica: by interpretation i was meaning John's interpretation when he wrote it
Homer The Egyptian King: no now tht is not open to interpretation
Jessica: you've heard of the telephone game, right?
Homer The Egyptian King: nope

wfhanna1

I am sorry for the long posts but i think you need to read the entire thing to see understand what happened
Sorry again ::)

wfhanna1

Jessica: ok, the telephone game is where one person tells someone something and then it goes down a chain of people
Jessica: by the time it reaches the end of the chain it's different from when it was originally told to the first person
Jessica: that's human nature, the nature of the memory, it can't be helped
Homer The Egyptian King: ooooooh k now i know what u talking about
Homer The Egyptian King: i think to solve all Christian dicussions we all should go back to when Jesus was on earth and listen to Him ourselves
Homer The Egyptian King: lol
Jessica: lol
Homer The Egyptian King: hey i think i might have found something to answer ur question about the Bible
Jessica: oh yeah?
Jessica: what's my question?
Homer The Egyptian King: about Jesus writing the Bible Himself
Jessica: ok
Homer The Egyptian King: it is a long ans but i guess u wll get the idea
Homer The Egyptian King: (Link: http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=322)http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=322
Jessica: which one are you wanting me to look at
Homer The Egyptian King: the longest one tht starts with 101 and so on
Jessica: i'm not denying that it was inspired by god
Jessica: but movies can be inspired by true stories and not necessarily be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god
Homer The Egyptian King: lol
Jessica: ya liked that, huh
Jessica: lol
Homer The Egyptian King: but again The Bible is open for interpretation for us to interpretate what it means but for those who wrote it lived those times and moments as it is said in the thread ppl recoreded what happened in WWII 30 yrs after it was over
Homer The Egyptian King: and they were as accurate as we know
essica: it is as accurate as we know, but no one was alive 2000 years ago and things could have been changed since then
Jessica: so we don't really know
Homer The Egyptian King: tht is y it was recoreded as soon as we know so it won't be turn into a telephone game
Jessica: but how much time elapsed between when it all happened and when it was recorded
Jessica: and besides, things could have been changed after it was recorded
Homer The Egyptian King: well what we have is as accuarte as we can get for the time being
Jessica: absolutely true
Jessica: which also means that it still might not be completely true
Homer The Egyptian King: so bc u think it is not completely true to totaly ignore it
Homer The Egyptian King: or to take whatever sounds good and leave what sounds not so good
Jessica: no, not completely ignore it...just use it as a guideline and not live your life so strictly by it
Homer The Egyptian King: k and the guideline says Matthew 5:28

"But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Homer The Egyptian King: so maybe it doesn't look like adultery to u but according to Jesus justin committed adultery if he looked at u lustfuly
Jessica: no, according to Matthew
Jessica: jesus may have said "whoever looks at another woman" and it was omited just in a lapse of memory
Homer The Egyptian King: well if u won't believe tht verse y even bother witht the rest of the Bible
Jessica: i said i think of it as a guideline
Homer The Egyptian King: but if u refuse one part of the guideline u refuse it all
Homer The Egyptian King: it is like saying ok i wll follow the law in not killing but i won't in don't steal
Homer The Egyptian King: and by law i mean the society law
Homer The Egyptian King: in either cases if u get caught u wll be judged
Jessica: that's not what a guideline is
Jessica: you're thinking of guideline as being the strict way to go and not a tool to help you make the right choices for yourself
Homer The Egyptian King: well the guideline gives me a guideline tht if i look bad at a women i approched the adultery part
essica: the church could be considered the institution instead of a building
Jessica: lol
Homer The Egyptian King: wat do u mean the institution?
u know what is the only difference btw a church and ur house?
Jessica: when people say "the church" they can either mean the building or the specific religion which is also sometimes called "the church"
Homer The Egyptian King: well to ans my question to u the only difference is an Altar and a priest if we get those two in ur house and a community then ur house is a church or if u don't like tht wrd the house of God now
Jessica: what are you talking about
Homer The Egyptian King: i am talking about the question u know what is the only difference btw a church and ur house?
Jessica: i didn't ask any question like that
Homer The Egyptian King: i asked u tht
Homer The Egyptian King: but u seem like skipping tht ans
Jessica: because id idn't know what you were talking about
Jessica: and you're right the only difference between an actual church and my house is that the church is a widely accepted place of worship
Jessica: that's it
Homer The Egyptian King: again i think all tht argument made u abit tired i shall say
Jessica: why
Homer The Egyptian King: it is not a matter of widely accepted or not
Homer The Egyptian King: the difference is btw what is present in the church and what is present in ur house
Jessica: no it's not
Homer The Egyptian King: from my point of view it is
Jessica: but once again, you are consumed by your religion which makes you narrow-minded and only able to see your point of view
Homer The Egyptian King: my religion is ur religion Christinaity
Homer The Egyptian King: but i guess we interpretate it a bit different
Jessica: i'm not consumed by it like you are
Homer The Egyptian King: wat u mean consumed is being deep and religious turned into a wrk called consumed
Jessica: i live my life the best way i know how and you live your life by a set of 2,000 year old rules
Jessica: i mean your whole life is dictated by it
Homer The Egyptian King: well ya bc religion does play a big part of my life
Homer The Egyptian King: i am not a secular goverment here

AND THAT IS WHERE WE ENDED UP for the that night at least

Abanoub88

Wasim,
I have a friend like that as well. You base your facts on a religion, the correct religion, and it is that same type of religion that your friend opposes. It is like going in a circle. Anything one will say is based on religion, but since the other person does not agree with that religion, it invalidates the source of the other person. Sorry, that might have been confusing. Now on the topic of adultery, I doubt there is much more you can do to convince your friend premarital sex is adultery. At this point, I would just pray for them so that God will enlighten their ways.

Praise the Lord with a new praise: O all people who love Christ our God: for He has visited us with His salvation: as Good and Lover of Mankind.
- Chris

Michael_Thoma

even if you cant convince her that it's adultery, maybe you can convince her it is fornication. Either way, she's committing a sin by persuing either act.

Ask her what she means by organized religion? I mean if she writes down her beliefs, and she gets her friends to agree with her, are they organized? Religion by its very nature is organized (some way or another), otherwise it wouldn't be a religion, just some ideas. Imagine someone saying they don't believe in organized ideas, there would be no political parties, no unions, no businesses, no clubs, or anthing that involves more than one person.

Abanoub88

Ah. Excellent point. Really really excellent. I think I'm going to use that in my arguments with my friends. :) Thank you.

God Bless,
- Chris

egyprincess

u could also mention that is she really sure that she is going to marry that person. Is there a 100% garentee that nothing will happen? Even so, y take the chance. By doing anything with anybody is giving each person a part of her, and then when she does get married, she won't have anything to give that person.

here's an example, although its sorta of girlish, but this example is always used at my church.
you have a jewlery box. every now and then, u give somebody a piece of jewlery from the box. soon, ull have nothing else to give out. we r the jewlery box and the jewels are our feelings, soon we will run out of them and wont have anything to give the one true person.

hope that made sense.

petergergis

First, Sex is a sanctity. It is the process of reproduction. This is what the Church teaches, " For the use of sex is from the purpose of the continuation of the species of man kind; and that it is for the next sanctity of a relationship between a man and his wife, for the pleasures and desires of sex are to be kept within a marriage, for the Lord teaches that a man and a woman should have each other; sex and its value of pleasure is not a sole purpose for the use of it, and should that be, it is an abomination of the sect; for the councils of Alexandria, Eritria, Jerusalem, Finland and the Ecclesia have adopted this. And it shall be tought throught the numbers." -

sleepymusician

I read in a book once, that a married couple can't go without sex for a certain time....is this true? Can anyone help me out here?


sleepy

mike_henain

So Peter, what u basically mean is "even married couple should have sex only for the purpose of reproduction, not for pleasure" and if so then holding hands, kissing and all that is impure.

Any ideas??

Defender

petergergis

Hi Defender,
No, actually, the church sanctions sex as a form of pleasure, and describes it as one of marriage's needs:

for the pleasures and desires of sex are to be kept within a marriage, for the Lord teaches that a man and a woman should have each other;

So, pleasures are allowed, but the church warns, that sex should not be used for the sole purpose of pleasure. Its main purpose is reproduction, but pleasure is a benefit and a neccessity of marriage.

mike_henain

After all if it wasn't then why would God created pleasurable?

Defender

petergergis

Great, so you get what I mean.

mike_henain

Ofcourse I do,

I'm not as dumb as every1 thinks I am

petergergis

Chill out, we all know that you are not dumb. Don't take everything so negatively. Have you ever thought that maybe people aren't always out to get you?

mike_henain

It doesn't matter Peter, I'm leaving the darn forum anyways

sleepymusician

This forum wouldn't be the same without you. We all contribute to it and make it what it is...if we all leave, what's the point to it???


sleepy

P.S. Hopefully you'll change you're mind

Coptic_Avenger

yo defender! i thought u were gonna help me out with the verse of the day. wat happened? don't tell me ur gonna bail out now. just chill out and listen to me. were're telling you the simple stuff not because we don't think you know it but because maybe you forgot about it. noone's saying ur stupid or anything.

sleepymusician

Basically, He has a point, but this is your choice. Just make sure thaqt your choice is influenced by God, not the devil.



sleepy

petergergis

Hey everyone,
I want to make one thing clear. This forum is for anyone. Coptic, Budhist whatever. This is an open door forum, if you want to leave you may. I am quite sure that no one here is interested in drama. So everyone, please read the postings, and do not react instantly. Absorb the info, then write.

I'm not singling anyone out, but I just think that drama has no place here. Thanks, Peter