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Can the Devil Be forgiven?
If the Devil repented and actaully meant it, will God forgive him? I know it sounds like a kindergarden question but we had a Sunday School lesson about forgivness. So, yeah, would God forgive him???
Comments
but....good question..it is not at all childish!!
The second point I need to clear here is the “(the devil will NEVER repent. simply because that is his nature)”. Again I disagree with you here also. Remember that God created the angels including the devil. God does not create a bad nature.
Forever,
Coptic Servent
even though God created the devil as an angel, the devil made the prideful decision to aspire to be like God. he aspired to perfection and is doing so he blasphemed the saving grace of the holy spirit i.e. he refused the holy spirit and its ability to grant forgiveness and repentance.
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." matthew 12:32
Yes, God is merciful but he is just. he has set before us his laws, his covenant, which we are to follow. surely there is a consequence for not doing so: " For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." romans 6:23
GBU
The devil on the other hand, sticking to his own theory “ I am better than god”. Which isn’t getting him anywhere. I can guarantee you that if God offer to forgive him, the devil will not accept
lol
That's a really funny question.
I think you should not be friends, nor should you like, nor love the devil. He is our enemy. We were at war with him, and it is a perpetual war, since the day of our baptism.
When you are at war, there is no notion of forgiveness - we can all talk about forgiveness once there is a Victor and good has conquered evil.
If you see what a mother says during the baptismal prayers: She states THREE times that she "hates the devil, his work, and all his deeds". She declares enmity with him on our behalf.
When you talk about "forgiveness" its as if you want to enter into a dialog with someone to discuss matters. The first rule in diabolical warfare is to NOT enter into discussion with the Devil. Therefore, forgiveness is not an option that you can even suggest.
When you are at war, there is no notion of forgiveness - we can all talk about forgiveness once there is a Victor and good has conquered evil.
I think that can be a dangerous idea, the notion that "when you are at war, there is no forgiveness".... Didn't Christ say to "love your enemies?" And to "pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you?"
I realize you're talking about Satan, and not people, but I think what you said can be too easily blurred that's all.
Also, St. Isaac of Nineveh wrote that we should not only pray for our neighbors and enemies, and even the demons and, yes even that Satan himself would be saved. And he's not the only one, but certainly the most well known who stated such ideas. When someone truly burns with the love of God within them, they want all to be saved, as I'm sure God Himself wants Satan to be saved.
With that said, I think for all practical purposes you're right. Because we are weak people, and not very spiritually attuned we most certainly should NOT, and should NEVER attempt to dialogue with demons or Satan. We shouldn't have any conversations with him saying "I forgive you", etc...Satan's fall came long before humanities, and his forgiveness is something in spiritual realm that is IMO beyond us. It's probably dangerous at some level to even speculate on it too deeply because we're talking about things we really have very little knowledge about.
But to me, the over all broad concept/question of whether Satan "can" be saved is not a silly question at all. Many saints said he COULD, if he repented.....mainly because God is God and can do anything He chooses, including forgiving Lucifer. That doesn't mean he WILL be forgiven, because he still has free will, and just from eons of spiritual history, it's pretty clear Satan will probably never repent, but the truth is we don't know with any certainty. Within the Eastern Church, I don't see any certitude of what things will be like 3 trillion eons from now. :)
We know that now, as you rightly pointed out, Satan is our enemy, and we shouldn't think of him in any other sense....but the philosophical question of CAN Satan be saved, has been asked by many Church fathers, and many of them said, yes he can, with a whole bunch of "IFs" added in. :) I think it is really their way and the Church's way of saying "we don't know for sure".....which is something I find comforting about Orthodoxy over Western Christianity, as the East seems to be more comfortable with saying "we don't know for sure"....or "it's a mystery"......where as the scholastic west defines every single thing down to the last detail.
I agree, Satan is roaming around looking for whom he may devour, but that's why we must be filled with love, because love is what he despises above all else. I don't mean we love satan, but we love God, and this nullifies any true power the enemy has. I guess I don't completely disagree with you, but just have a little different POV on the matter.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=3148.msg104090#msg104090 date=1245059125]
When you are at war, there is no notion of forgiveness - we can all talk about forgiveness once there is a Victor and good has conquered evil.
I think that can be a dangerous idea, the notion that "when you are at war, there is no forgiveness".... Didn't Christ say to "love your enemies?" And to "pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you?"
I realize you're talking about Satan, and not people, but I think what you said can be too easily blurred that's all.
Also, St. Isaac of Nineveh wrote that we should not only pray for our neighbors and enemies, and even the demons and, yes even that Satan himself would be saved. And he's not the only one, but certainly the most well known who stated such ideas. When someone truly burns with the love of God within them, they want all to be saved, as I'm sure God Himself wants Satan to be saved.
With that said, I think for all practical purposes you're right. Because we are weak people, and not very spiritually attuned we most certainly should NOT, and should NEVER attempt to dialogue with demons or Satan. We shouldn't have any conversations with him saying "I forgive you", etc...Satan's fall came long before humanities, and his forgiveness is something in spiritual realm that is IMO beyond us. It's probably dangerous at some level to even speculate on it too deeply because we're talking about things we really have very little knowledge about.
But to me, the over all broad concept/question of whether Satan "can" be saved is not a silly question at all. Many saints said he COULD, if he repented.....mainly because God is God and can do anything He chooses, including forgiving Lucifer. That doesn't mean he WILL be forgiven, because he still has free will, and just from eons of spiritual history, it's pretty clear Satan will probably never repent, but the truth is we don't know with any certainty. Within the Eastern Church, I don't see any certitude of what things will be like 3 trillion eons from now. :)
We know that now, as you rightly pointed out, Satan is our enemy, and we shouldn't think of him in any other sense....but the philosophical question of CAN Satan be saved, has been asked by many Church fathers, and many of them said, yes he can, with a whole bunch of "IFs" added in. :) I think it is really their way and the Church's way of saying "we don't know for sure".....which is something I find comforting about Orthodoxy over Western Christianity, as the East seems to be more comfortable with saying "we don't know for sure"....or "it's a mystery"......where as the scholastic west defines every single thing down to the last detail.
I agree, Satan is roaming around looking for whom he may devour, but that's why we must be filled with love, because love is what he despises above all else. I don't mean we love satan, but we love God, and this nullifies any true power the enemy has. I guess I don't completely disagree with you, but just have a little different POV on the matter.
You want to love the Devil?
This is really odd.
If you are Coptic, your own parents who had baptised you stated clearly "they hated the Devil".
There's no question of forgiveness...
But u have a point: Christ did say that we should love our enemies - that's right. Then your logical conclusion of that is that we should also love Satan?
Well.. I'll let someone else answer that. I attended many baptisms where we actually say we "Hate you" (3 times) to satan.
I guess you can say "We hate you" with love.. I've never tried that, but it could be possible.
Ask someone else?
You have me all confused now!!
I hope you are all well in Christ. I think it is important that we do not fall into error here; see that Christ Himself says that "the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me." If we are called to be like Christ, indeed, to become "partakers of the divine nature," then he or she who willingly devoids themselves of Christ, refusing to partake of the divine nature has no place in Christ. See how the Great Enemy willfully wishes for us to be drawn away from God, how adamant he is in preventing us from coming closer to God. Some may say "who are we to judge?" It is God who judges and who has judged; the time for judgment of the angels has already passed. Christ proclaims famously "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Christ, who is God, who is the embodiment of love, shows clearly His contempt for Satan.
In Mark 9:42, it is said, “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea." Has Satan not caused billions to stumble?
Consider the ramifications of the assumption that Satan will be forgiven. If he who detracts us from God, who continues in sin, who detests God will be forgiven, then why must we struggle? In fact, if this was the case, everyone would enter into the kingdom of heaven! Matthew 7:13-14 states, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." There are few that find it, few that will enter the kingdom of heaven, few that become partakers of the divine nature. This automatically precludes the salvation of several people.
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Does Satan do the will of the Father? Surely not!
There is no love to be had for Satan, the enemy of our salvation, the opposer of all that is good. Do not be mistaken in this.
May we be firm and stand steadfastly in our faith; be focused on yourself and those who are around you, for our day comes soon and judgment comes with it.
childoforthodoxy
So would you agree - 9/10 times, we should never even think of forgiving satan?
There is never a situation when you should forgive Satan, in my opinion.
OK. Case closed. ChildofOrthodoxy has spoken.
Shame (big time) on anyone who disagreed with me. Lol.. forgive the devil... yeah, whatever.
You want to love the Devil?
This is really odd.
That's not what I said at all. Go back and read what I wrote...in fact I specifically said:
I don't mean we love satan, but we love God, and this nullifies any true power the enemy has. I'm not Coptic, but what does that matter? All Orthodox baptismal rites are very very similar. The Greeks "spit" on the devil 3 times in fact.
However "hate" has a specific meaning, it is something that I just do not see fitting in with Christianity. Hate is one of the passions, (according to all the great fathers and saints of the desert), so how can an ungoldy passion be useful? My point is we're not to hate satan, but rather to LOVE GOD. If we spend all our time hating the devil, then we're wasting time and energy that we could be using to love God. Does that make sense? No, WE are not to "forgive" satan, because that's something that is not within our power. However, God CAN forgive Satan, which was the point of the original post, (or so I thought). The question was can Satan be forgiven, and the answer of course is yes. Because God can do anything He wants. That doesn't mean satan WILL be forgiven, only that with God all things are possible, with the provision of course that satan were to repent. (which I don't believe he ever will)
(I feel like I repeating myself)
Look at it another way, what if trillions of ages from now, Satan DOES repent.....would God say, "will nice try but I CANNOT forgive you because it's not within my power?" Do you see my point? If God so chooses, He CAN forgive satan, but as we know God never takes away free will and will not FORCE forgiveness on someone, and so satan would have to do his part, which from what we know of satan, is completely out of character and an unlikely event.
What I'm suggesting is that it's dangerous to say "No satan cannot be forgiven" because it suggests (to me) that there is something that God can't do. The question wasn't about whether WE should forgive satan, but whether God can....or at least that's how I read it, maybe I misunderstood. That wasn't my conclusion at all. Please re-read my post.
I'm sorry I've confused you, but I just cannot explain it any better than I have, and that is my fault and inability. I'm just not articulate enough to be any more clear.
[quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=3148.msg104124#msg104124 date=1245250905]
There is never a situation when you should forgive Satan, in my opinion.
OK. Case closed. ChildofOrthodoxy has spoken.
Shame (big time) on anyone who disagreed with me. Lol.. forgive the devil... yeah, whatever.
Ok here's the original post:
If the Devil repented and actaully meant it, will God forgive him? I know it sounds like a kindergarden question but we had a Sunday School lesson about forgivness. So, yeah, would God forgive him???
As you can see, the question was NOT about can or should WE (meaning human beings) forgive satan, but rather can/would God forgive him. That was what my post was talking about. You are the one that took the topic into the question about what we should or shouldn't do. My post clearly stated that what I was talking about was God'a ability to forgive satan, not ours.
I guess my disagreement was with your statement that "in war there is no forgiveness", that's simply nothing Christ ever said, or even implied, and with all the wars going on in the world, I think it's a dangerous phrase to toss out there, because while you meant it in spiritual terms of a spiritual enemy, I promise you, many people would see that to mean fellow human beings as well, including many Christians who've used that excuse over and over again, including the Byzantine Empire in oppressing the Copts who they say as "heretics" and "spiritual enemies". That's what I meant....that it's too easy to take the idea of unforgiveness and apply it to people. So we shouldn't even be talking about such concepts.
But I really cannot be any clearer than that, and for that I apologize.....I also apologize for confusing anyone, and will refrain from further defense of my argument. It was misunderstood, and that's my weakness, but in the end if it has caused anyone to stumble, then I should have simply kept my thoughts to myself.
You are right; I was addressing the fallacy of us as humans forgiving Satan simply because the topic arose amidst the initial discussion.
For the original post, perhaps we should view the topic in the way that we view our own lives in the age to come. If I am to be condemned to Hades (God forbid) after this life, is it possible for God to forgive me and bring me to the kingdom of heaven? This is not how we view things; perhaps it is because it is not God who condemns, but I who condemn myself. I am the one who separates himself from God, not God who distances Himself from me. Let us see the case of Satan now, who has, since his fall, chosen to separate himself from God. I suppose we can get into philosophical discussions as to whether or not the possibility exists of repentance and such, but as far as I have been educated on the matter, the judgment of the heavenly beings has already occurred; if judgment is carried out, can God go back on His Word? This is truly the discussion to be had. Philosophically, then, the question becomes "does Satan still have the capacity to repent?" We see in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that the rich man realizes that he has done evil, insomuch that he wishes to go and warn his family members... a realization of fault, but an option to change? No. The rich man is condemned through his own actions; Satan is condemned through his and continues to be. Can the rich man repent and change his ways? Is this how Orthodoxy works... if that was the case, then let us drink and be merry, because we can do what we like today and repent of it in the life to come. This is not the way that it is.
Perhaps we should be less focused on things we are unsure of, things beyond our capacity to comprehend and certainly beyond our capacity to determine, and let us focus on ourselves, on our own lives, on our coming closer to Christ and becoming lights to the world.
Pray for me, a sinner,
childoforthodoxy
Hi Northstar,
My sincere apologies. I admit I didnt read the 1st post. I just read the title.
Never judge a thread by its title.
You did mention a very clever point: Its not in our power to forgive Satan.
Its a good question actually. And by the way, I didnt know the Greeks spit on satan 3 times. Lol.. wow!
That's so cool. Greeks are such good fun: they break plates, spit, eat extremely garlic food. Never a boring moment in the Greek Church - is there?
Yeah, so its a good question: What if Satan apologised - would God forgive Satan? I've got no idea.
Bishop Youssef gives a pretty satisfactory answer here! everyone check it out !
Can Satan repent?
Satan passed the time of repentance. The angels were created with a free will. Satan and his angels failed the test. The angels in heaven today cannot sin and Satan and his angels have no room for repentance now for it is too late. The same principle applies to human beings. For the righteous who have departed from earth to Paradise do not sin wheras it is too late for those in Hades to repent. Therefore our Lord said "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming" (Mt 24:42). Also there is no repentance for Satan because he sinned without deception unlike Adam who had been deceived.