Actually Christ4Life, you are not allowed to play the cymbals when church is going on, but if you were to play after church is over Abouna does not mind! Hey, I have played the deaf in church in front of Pope Shenouda III, Anba Morcos, Anba Sabadramon, and Anba Youhanna, they didn't say anything, no comment!
I noticed that there's a whole lot of discussion without actually answering the question!!
I asked a priest and he told me that the reason that women are not supposed to do Orban, is becuase only a deacon is allowed to make it. (The person doing it has to be a baptised deacon).
Not only a deacon can make it, a priest can. And in Egypt, they have the "forash" or servant/workers in the Church who make them... So it can be any male... as for the reason... I'll find out and post back.
[quote author=ricovolta link=topic=2676.msg91201#msg91201 date=1213950685] I noticed that there's a whole lot of discussion without actually answering the question!!
I asked a priest and he told me that the reason that women are not supposed to do Orban, is becuase only a deacon is allowed to make it. (The person doing it has to be a baptised deacon).
Can anyone confirm?
Rafik
well...i guess you considered right....but that is not satisfiing enough for ppl here on tasbeha.org, so it gets into other things as where "why can't we do this" when females speak.
[quote author=PrincessMary link=topic=2676.msg41382#msg41382 date=1130705706] hey i know this is a little off topic but u know this verse really bothers me, whats with women not teaching because Adam was formed first???, so then why are we teaching sunday school or choir or hymns or something, if it says women arent supposed to teach?????
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2: 11-15
I thought this scripture was a good answer to the question. I think in this 'western' world, where the Devil reigns we women are easily seduced again to believe lies. Like the lie that it is derogatory for us not to be allowed to make Orban and other such things. That second sentence in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, shows that we would suffer if we attempted such things. Women suffer in child-bearing, which is natural for us. I do not even want to imagine the sufferations that would come from attempting things that are not natural to us! Fear the Lord our Almighty God!!!
I was in Al Muqattam in Egypt once and we were visiting the churches over there and the man present (not a deacon or anything just a man who sits in church..) told all the men who were with us: by all means, go into the mazbah and look around.. and then he looked at my mum and I and said, naturally you know I can't allow you to enter..
I was so angry back then, and then when I asked abouna he said it was wrong for the man to allow any man to enter el mazbah, ONLY servants of el mazbah are allowed to enter
What I mean to say is that many tasks are meant for people who have a certain role in the church, not just for any man But the rules aren't always being followed, also maybe some people get influenced too much by Egyptian society which in many ways looks down upon women..
He said women have to learn in all subjection BECAUSE man was created before women (and other things..)
Doesn't that imply that it was God's plan for women to be like this and that it wasn't a punishment (since in Genesis while God is telling woman about her punishment, he says your desire shall be for your man and he will rule over you..)
My question is: the different (not unequal) role of women in church: was that part of the punishment or was it intended by God from the beginning???
also: What's the significance of God creating Adam first??? (although I think had it been the other way around, we would be asking why He created Eve first)
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=2676.msg91284#msg91284 date=1214039938] I had a question on Timothy:
He said women have to learn in all subjection BECAUSE man was created before women (and other things..)
Doesn't that imply that it was God's plan for women to be like this and that it wasn't a punishment (since in Genesis while God is telling woman about her punishment, he says your desire shall be for your man and he will rule over you..)
My question is: the different (not unequal) role of women in church: was that part of the punishment or was it intended by God from the beginning???
well God knows everything. so He would know that this happends. the role in our Church is NOT a punishment. no one, for weird reason, accept this....... "EVERY PERSON ON EARTH HAVE A GENERAL DUTY FOR ALL AND HAVE A PRIVTE DUTY AS FOR THEMSELVES."
it's that EASY to accept, so do so.......
also: What's the significance of God creating Adam first??? (although I think had it been the other way around, we would be asking why He created Eve first)
because she was created to be his helper; look:
Genesis 2 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." 24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. 25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. (NIV)
it's self-explanatory. verse 24 is just great, i didn't know that it was originally her rather than what was said in St Matthews' of Jesus's words
One more thing: I asked abouna why women weren't allowed to go to the front and read from the bible during liturgy.. He said well, it's to prevent any lustfeelings from the men, if there were a woman standing there surely they would focus on her body and not on the bible reading...(while they can also just look to their right to see all women..)
I can't help but think this is not a good reason, I mean they might as well make women were veils as they do in Islam to prevent men from looking at them... Of course, there are limits as to women and their clothes, but some men look at them no matter what they're wearing, still it's portrayed as the woman's fault when that happens...
I love the coptic church and respect and value its traditions, don't get me wrong, and I know that men and women are equal yet different in our church and I don't mind that as long as we both can have the same relationship with God and soforth, it's just that I think maybe some of the traditions might have been influenced a bit by Arab tradition especially in Egypt, that's what I was wondering about
Guys... i think we just have to accept that men (Deacons) do most lots of things in our Church.. Like Korban, read the Bible (stuff already mentioned here)...
Comments
sorry marmar
Forever,
Coptic Servent
I asked a priest and he told me that the reason that women are not supposed to do Orban, is becuase only a deacon is allowed to make it. (The person doing it has to be a baptised deacon).
Can anyone confirm?
Rafik
pray for me
joe
I noticed that there's a whole lot of discussion without actually answering the question!!
I asked a priest and he told me that the reason that women are not supposed to do Orban, is becuase only a deacon is allowed to make it. (The person doing it has to be a baptised deacon).
Can anyone confirm?
Rafik
well...i guess you considered right....but that is not satisfiing enough for ppl here on tasbeha.org, so it gets into other things as where "why can't we do this" when females speak.
hey i know this is a little off topic but u know this verse really bothers me, whats with women not teaching because Adam was formed first???, so then why are we teaching sunday school or choir or hymns or something, if it says women arent supposed to teach?????
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2: 11-15
I thought this scripture was a good answer to the question.
I think in this 'western' world, where the Devil reigns we women are easily seduced again to believe lies. Like the lie that it is derogatory for us not to be allowed to make Orban and other such things. That second sentence in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, shows that we would suffer if we attempted such things.
Women suffer in child-bearing, which is natural for us. I do not even want to imagine the sufferations that would come from attempting things that are not natural to us!
Fear the Lord our Almighty God!!!
Please pray for us!
I was so angry back then, and then when I asked abouna he said it was wrong for the man to allow any man to enter el mazbah, ONLY servants of el mazbah are allowed to enter
What I mean to say is that many tasks are meant for people who have a certain role in the church, not just for any man
But the rules aren't always being followed, also maybe some people get influenced too much by Egyptian society which in many ways looks down upon women..
God Bless
He said women have to learn in all subjection BECAUSE man was created before women (and other things..)
Doesn't that imply that it was God's plan for women to be like this and that it wasn't a punishment (since in Genesis while God is telling woman about her punishment, he says your desire shall be for your man and he will rule over you..)
My question is: the different (not unequal) role of women in church: was that part of the punishment or was it intended by God from the beginning???
also: What's the significance of God creating Adam first??? (although I think had it been the other way around, we would be asking why He created Eve first)
God Bless
I had a question on Timothy:
He said women have to learn in all subjection BECAUSE man was created before women (and other things..)
Doesn't that imply that it was God's plan for women to be like this and that it wasn't a punishment (since in Genesis while God is telling woman about her punishment, he says your desire shall be for your man and he will rule over you..)
My question is: the different (not unequal) role of women in church: was that part of the punishment or was it intended by God from the beginning???
well God knows everything. so He would know that this happends. the role in our Church is NOT a punishment. no one, for weird reason, accept this.......
"EVERY PERSON ON EARTH HAVE A GENERAL DUTY FOR ALL AND HAVE A PRIVTE DUTY AS FOR THEMSELVES."
it's that EASY to accept, so do so.......
because she was created to be his helper; look:
Genesis 2
20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man." 24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. 25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. (NIV)
it's self-explanatory. verse 24 is just great, i didn't know that it was originally her rather than what was said in St Matthews' of Jesus's words
God Bless,
Copt Andrew
I can't help but think this is not a good reason, I mean they might as well make women were veils as they do in Islam to prevent men from looking at them... Of course, there are limits as to women and their clothes, but some men look at them no matter what they're wearing, still it's portrayed as the woman's fault when that happens...
I love the coptic church and respect and value its traditions, don't get me wrong, and I know that men and women are equal yet different in our church and I don't mind that as long as we both can have the same relationship with God and soforth, it's just that I think maybe some of the traditions might have been influenced a bit by Arab tradition especially in Egypt, that's what I was wondering about
God Bless
Please pray for me