um...it was like saint sam3an el karas that hurt himself becasue he saw a womens leg..
do you know of the verse....it is better to go into heaven without a tongue...than to burn in everlasting fire(or somefing like that) and also if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out...
in her and his cases...they saw it as a necessary for their eternity and didnt do it for the sake of depression...or whatever...
[quote author=MarMar91 link=board=12;threadid=2614;start=0#msg40459 date=1129159573] be considered a saint? I had to do a research thing 4 skool, so I was researching "Saint" Rose of Lima, and I didnt like the way she intentionally caused herself physical pain, it seemed kinda pointless... like, okay, she didnt get married n devoted her life to God, but i dont see the need 4 it, i never heard of any of our saints doing that,....
I personally, think its ridiculous, but what about u?? u can also research her if u still want to know more..
To tell the truth, inflicting pains on oneself for the sake of publicity (or to just be called a saint) would be totally wrong. However, if a person were to inflict pains to himself for the greater glory of God, then in a way, you are offering your body back to God, as flimsy as it may be. I hope this helps!
[quote author=why link=board=12;threadid=2614;start=45#msg47277 date=1139223880] well im sorry but i think there are better and healthier ways...i find for no reason to put your self in pain..or hurt yourself in anyway...
um...n usually it is not for repenting it is becasue of depression of some sort...or for bordom for some people
Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where their warm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
My opinion is Lord Jesus words are quite clear (whether spiritually or physically). A saint could apply them, very rarely, even if they are extremely difficult, to her/his body but only for such reasons: - fighting own splendor and beauty especially if serious cause of sin to self or to others - fighting and taming sinning organs to the most - loving Jesus so much to want to feel like part of pain he suffered to be so close to him and to express that This is not about ordinary people or the depressive, but about very advanced saints although it is not too common. These saints are very serious about their goal and would not lose it at any price. I think other than that it would be a very wrong thing to do
Anba Samaan The Tanner, the great saint by whom God made the great miracle of moving the Mokatam mountain east of Cairo willingly pricked his eye.
I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but the Church is generally opposed to acts of self-mutilation. The verses you quote are NOT intended to be taken literally.
Self-mutilation was a practise condemned by a local Alexandrian Synod. Origen, who was a great teacher and defender of Orthodoxy castrated himself for spiritual reasons - he wanted to be able to teach women without falling into temptation, and he wanted to further his potential as a prolific writer, however our Patriarch St Demetrius the Vinedresser condemned him for this action.
St Simon the Tanaar is a different story, since he was a very simple man. He cannot be condemned for his ignorance and simplicity; he was simply doing what he thought was the right and faithful thing to do. His example cannot be brought up as precedent however to justify the self-mutilation of others.
As I said, St Simon’s act of self-mutilation reflects the simplicity of his faith; he didn’t know any better. He thought himself obliged before God to do such a thing, since he had misinterpreted the Bible in such a manner due to his childlike innocence and simplicity. As such, he cannot be held guilty or responsible for this act, which is otherwise condemnable.
Origen (who was a learned Coptic scholar of the Church) self-mutilated himself to prevent himself from temptation, and he was condemned for this by our own Coptic Pope St Demetrius the Vinedresser at a local Coptic Synod. The Church teaches us to overcome our temptations through spiritual exercises; physical self-mutilation is a kind of “cheating”. We are to spiritually crucify our “old man” through self-control, humility, obedience, etc. etc. and not by physical means.
OK Iqbal I get your point. Yes, I was unaware of this detail (of 'cheating'), though I do not understand why the person and not just the act is condemned. Nevertheless, Origen left us a lot of books.
What about Saints who ask the Lord the blessing of a disease?
So I admit my mistake about self-inflicted mutilation, but there are instances of Saints who asked the Lord blessings of pain and were granted it.
As example, there is a Saint whose very powerful interscessions I've seen: Saint Rita of Cascia. She was granted a painful holy thorn wound in her forehead. This was not self-inflicted, furthermore her body is still intact (unspoiled) as a clear divine sign of her saintliness. This is her picture:
You will find that the biographies and hagiographies of many of the Saints of the Western Church involve physical pain and blood (and I am not here referring to martyrdom but rather strange phenomena, such as the stigmata experienced by Rita of Cascia), whether self-inflicted or brought about in a so-called vision or by a so-called apparition. Such things are foreign to the Orthodox Church. These people, such as Rita of Cascia, are not considered Saints of our Church, and we do not recognize the divine origin of such phenomena.
Here is one opinion from the Coptic Orthodox Church concerning the stigmata phenomena:
Stigmata is a phenomenon foreign to the Orthodox experience and, as such, the Church has no official position towards it. Such things may be signs from God, or they could be deceptions or distractions from the devil. The best thing is to remain focused on Christ and not give much heed to these phenomena. In the end what matters above everything is God and God alone. Therefore we should not allow any distracters to shift our focus.
I read that scientists are inclined to believe that the stigmata are connected with nervous or cataleptic hysteria.
Hi every1! ;) I was just thinking about how in the bible God gave St. Paul a disease that he wouldn't take away from him (despite Paul having asked the lord 3 times for Him to remove it), in order to give him humility. In this case, it was part of God's plan bcos he knew that this was what was best for Paul's spirituality. What credit would Paul have in inflicting pain on himself? I think that it's wrong 2 take matters into your own hands and that ideally it's better 2 fight sin and temptation with prayer... Very interesting discussion!
i dont know if someone said this but abba bishoy hanged his hair on a chain so he wouldnt go to sleep so he wouldnt stop praying witch is pain physical not going to sleep and being pulled from a chain i doubt that was wrong
That's an excellent point. Not at all....the restraint of the body is substantially different from physical pain inflicted upon one's self for the sake of self-gratification. When you deter your physical desires to obtian a greater spirtual closness to God, it is a form of fasting. In this case, Anba Bishoy restrained his bodily urge to sleep in order to appease God's will. The pain he endured through the choking of his hair, was not only a short-term disadvantage, it was the necessary behavior for His ultimate salvation. Those who advertedley inflict pain on themsleves for the sake of self-indulgence, gain nothing but lose everything. Such people's ultimate goal is not salvation but self-gratification, even if that gratification is facilitated around coping with depressed emotions.
Comments
um...it was like saint sam3an el karas that hurt himself becasue he saw a womens leg..
do you know of the verse....it is better to go into heaven without a tongue...than to burn in everlasting fire(or somefing like that) and also if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out...
in her and his cases...they saw it as a necessary for their eternity and didnt do it for the sake of depression...or whatever...
be considered a saint?
I had to do a research thing 4 skool, so I was researching "Saint" Rose of Lima, and I didnt like the way she intentionally caused herself physical pain, it seemed kinda pointless...
like, okay, she didnt get married n devoted her life to God, but i dont see the need 4 it, i never heard of any of our saints doing that,....
The way they state it, She inflicted strict n extreme penances on herself..
read about her here:
http://school.eb.com/all/eb/article-9064084?query=rose of lima&ct=null
so what do u guys think??
I personally, think its ridiculous, but what about u??
u can also research her if u still want to know more..
To tell the truth, inflicting pains on oneself for the sake of publicity (or to just be called a saint) would be totally wrong. However, if a person were to inflict pains to himself for the greater glory of God, then in a way, you are offering your body back to God, as flimsy as it may be. I hope this helps!
um...n usually it is not for repenting it is becasue of depression of some sort...or for bordom for some people
well im sorry but i think there are better and healthier ways...i find for no reason to put your self in pain..or hurt yourself in anyway...
um...n usually it is not for repenting it is becasue of depression of some sort...or for bordom for some people
Like what?
Mark 9:43
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where their warm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
My opinion is Lord Jesus words are quite clear (whether spiritually or physically). A saint could apply them, very rarely, even if they are extremely difficult, to her/his body but only for such reasons:
- fighting own splendor and beauty especially if serious cause of sin to self or to others
- fighting and taming sinning organs to the most
- loving Jesus so much to want to feel like part of pain he suffered to be so close to him and to express that
This is not about ordinary people or the depressive, but about very advanced saints although it is not too common. These saints are very serious about their goal and would not lose it at any price.
I think other than that it would be a very wrong thing to do
Anba Samaan The Tanner, the great saint by whom God made the great miracle of moving the Mokatam mountain east of Cairo willingly pricked his eye.
I'm not sure if you're aware or not, but the Church is generally opposed to acts of self-mutilation. The verses you quote are NOT intended to be taken literally.
Self-mutilation was a practise condemned by a local Alexandrian Synod. Origen, who was a great teacher and defender of Orthodoxy castrated himself for spiritual reasons - he wanted to be able to teach women without falling into temptation, and he wanted to further his potential as a prolific writer, however our Patriarch St Demetrius the Vinedresser condemned him for this action.
St Simon the Tanaar is a different story, since he was a very simple man. He cannot be condemned for his ignorance and simplicity; he was simply doing what he thought was the right and faithful thing to do. His example cannot be brought up as precedent however to justify the self-mutilation of others.
Origen (who was a learned Coptic scholar of the Church) self-mutilated himself to prevent himself from temptation, and he was condemned for this by our own Coptic Pope St Demetrius the Vinedresser at a local Coptic Synod. The Church teaches us to overcome our temptations through spiritual exercises; physical self-mutilation is a kind of “cheating”. We are to spiritually crucify our “old man” through self-control, humility, obedience, etc. etc. and not by physical means.
What about Saints who ask the Lord the blessing of a disease?
As example, there is a Saint whose very powerful interscessions I've seen: Saint Rita of Cascia. She was granted a painful holy thorn wound in her forehead. This was not self-inflicted, furthermore her body is still intact (unspoiled) as a clear divine sign of her saintliness. This is her picture:
You will find that the biographies and hagiographies of many of the Saints of the Western Church involve physical pain and blood (and I am not here referring to martyrdom but rather strange phenomena, such as the stigmata experienced by Rita of Cascia), whether self-inflicted or brought about in a so-called vision or by a so-called apparition. Such things are foreign to the Orthodox Church. These people, such as Rita of Cascia, are not considered Saints of our Church, and we do not recognize the divine origin of such phenomena.
Here is one opinion from the Coptic Orthodox Church concerning the stigmata phenomena:
Stigmata is a phenomenon foreign to the Orthodox experience and, as such, the Church has no official position towards it. Such things may be signs from God, or they could be deceptions or distractions from the devil. The best thing is to remain focused on Christ and not give much heed to these phenomena. In the end what matters above everything is God and God alone. Therefore we should not allow any distracters to shift our focus.
I read that scientists are inclined to believe that the stigmata are connected with nervous or cataleptic hysteria.
- H.G. Bishop Youssef
I was just thinking about how in the bible God gave St. Paul a disease that he wouldn't take away from him (despite Paul having asked the lord 3 times for Him to remove it), in order to give him humility.
In this case, it was part of God's plan bcos he knew that this was what was best for Paul's spirituality. What credit would Paul have in inflicting pain on himself?
I think that it's wrong 2 take matters into your own hands and that ideally it's better 2 fight sin and temptation with prayer...
Very interesting discussion!
God bless you, Mickey-who is like God