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Views on dating?
What are the Coptic views on dating. I am very interested.
Comments
Page 24, Q104
http://www.youthbishopric.com/library/DownloadLibrary/Book/yconcernE.pdf
I just want to say that I totally disagree with what someone said before. That dating is a waste of time. I think is totally the opposite.
Dating is a time in which a couple gets to know each other, is a more personal friendship that you enagage in with that person of the opposite sex with whom you feel attracted towards. And yes, you would have to spend time with one another, by doing things that both people enjoy.
It is very essential before considering engagement.
And dating does not indicate that the couple is going to have sexual practices, we as human beings and as christians know or should know what our attitudes and actions should be as discipules of God, therefore our actions should speak as such. I think God has made us strong enough, He has given us not only the strenght, the will power, but also the wisdom to make the correct decisions at the right time.
I agree with what you just said. ;)
I just don't know. I would be interested to hear what other people think.
A.
the problem these days wit youth is that they want to jump the gun n start dating without knowing its wrong to everyone out there the main fact is your relationship with god,with him you are complete and should never need or desire anyone else, "he who leves father or mother or wife more then me does not deserve me".when the time comes and god wills you to get married it is his choice not ours where we try partners and see who suits us, god is our father and he arranges all our affairs including marrige and his choice is always best
This is an amazing thought, thanks for sharing it with us, I do agree with some of your points however with most of them I do not.
I am not a great righter so I will stick to one or two. First, I think it is very important for a couple to know each other VERY well before engagement. In my opinion the engagement time is only preparation for marriage. How well they need to know each other and what is the limits? That is the issue.
I think that the limits is how much they respect each other, If I respect my future wife and the mother of my kids, I would not attempt to do things which I would tell my kids one day not to do it. That being said, I think dating before engagement which controlled by the engagement/marriage thought is totally acceptable in my opinion.
It is really sad that you bring the Egypt culture part in this. I feel really sorry for ADULTS who lives there. We have our own mind and judgment. if two people should be able to hug or giving each other a kiss on the cheek (even if they are married) and they should not go to jail for that. That is pathetic
God Bless You All! Interesting topic! I see some very good points here. I think That if we have surrendered ourselves to Christ that would include EVERYTHING including our sexuality (Colossians 3:17). So then we do what God tells us through His commandments. His commandments helps our wills to be more in tune to His thus we get to know more and more His Holy Will for us from the smallest to the biggest questions. We must ask ourselves if we still live life according to OUR precepts or God's? The Bible says," For you were bought at a price... (1 Corinthians 3:20)" and " He must increase and I must decrease... (John 3:30)" so this is not a holier than thou judgement but a fraternal reminder that sex is more than just a need but a kind of sacrament meant to be shared between a married couple (1 Corinthians 6:15-20, 1 Corinthians 7:90. We must avoid extrmemes also like jail for kissing or huging in public and sex before Marriage. lets do it God's way. His way is always best as a dear sister said before.
I just finished reading this book that was written by an American called "I kissed dating goodbye" by Joshua Harris. It discusses the reasons for why dating and physical intimacy before marriage is such a bad idea using bible verses to prove it. This book was actually used in the church to help explain why our religion denounces dating. Even when you are engaged dating is not a good idea. Yes you have to get to know each other, and you do, but you have to always have your friends with you. That's the difference between American dating and Egyptian engagements. You can't be left alone with your significant other. It's not a good idea to be left alone with a person of the opposite sex because it leads to temptation. Even if nothing happens. Why would someone put themselves in such a tempting position? To prove they are strong? God doesn't want you to prove anything. He wants you to stay away from temptation. That would be the smart thing to do. As for what Dicknix was saying about physical intimacy. I'm sorry, but I dont' agree. Marriage shouldn't be based on physical anything. Physical intimacy makes a person all the more attatched to another person so breaking up is difficult. Even if being "physically intimate" is just a kiss. One kiss can lead to impure thoughts and even more stronger temptation. Say they aren't "physically compatable" and they leave each other. First of all, how would they know the difference if they have nothing to compare it too? Second, what if you have to go through a whole bunch of people to find that person who you are physically compatible to. Each person you are with you give a piece of your heart to; so by the time you are married all you have to give to your spouse is WHAT IS LEFT of your heart. Say you are walking in the grocery store with your husband/wife and you run into a past fiance' that you were physically intimate with you are still going to have some feelings for this person. Even if there is nothing between you and this person anymore you are still going to feel something, because at one point you cared for this person. Those feelings, no matter how small they are is a kind of cheating on your spouse. You are thinking about someone else. Your heart has cheated against your spouse. If you want a strong marriage then physical intimacy shouldn't matter before marriage. If a guy meets a girl and she is the most amazing person he has ever met and there is no one like her, then is he going to leave her just because she isn't physically compatible? No. If he loves her it's not going to matter to him as much as her personality does. He shouldn't have anything to compare it to so he won't know the difference anyway. This is not just directed towards guys only. This is for girls too. Physical intimacy is for marriage. Before marriage is not acceptable to god. If you are being physically intimate and your parent is standing right there, aren't you going to feel ashamed? If your married it's not a big deal, but if your not married? God watches us 24/7. Wouldn't you be ashamed?In Egypt if two people are caught hugging or giving each other a kiss on the cheek (even if they are married) they can get put in jail, because the people around them wish they had someone and causes impure thoughts in the people. If there is anything that I have said that someone doesn't agree with or has a reply too, please post it. I like to hear opinions.
high five for you!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Having said that dating must be within limits and with the aim of engagement within few months and ultimately marriage
The problem is that if I'm tempted when holding the hands of my fiance before marriage then call me a wild daydreamer who conjures up incredible out there theories but don't you think that would mean you'd be in real trouble in your wedding night when you'll be doing something a whole lot more intimate than simply holding hands??? Its a bit like refusing to feed goldfish then deciding to go straight to feeding sharks by hand. The problem of temptation is a real issue both before and after marriage and it has to be addressed to some extent. Its not like in the wedding ceremony the priest prays saying, Lord please legalise the lust that exists between this couple or Lord please make it so that this couple become instantainiously pure?
I agree that there are many types of physical intimacy that are inappropriate before marriage but you need to have some physical intimacy (according to the wishes of your father) otherwise your not gonna know how you feel about physical contact with them until its perhaps too late? To have no contact at all is like refusing to step off the curb in expectation of jumping off a cliff. The problem of lust doesn't disappear after marriage as King Solomon proved to us. The issue is that we need to activley work with our potential partner to make sure that your together on the basis of love and not lust, an important factor in that is limited and controlled physical intimacy as directed by a father of confession.
If you feel it is best to avoid contact (and this is okay if this is what your directed to do by your confession father and as may occur in many cultures) make sure your not doing it to avoid or cut off the feeling of lust, this is a guarenteed path to failure. When I fight impulses like this they generally get stronger as we grow weaker, there has to be a concerted effort to replace bad lustful or selfish feelings with good interntions, in essence lust has to be replaced with love. Desire for sex or physical contact is not a reaction to my lustful desires, it is my response to God's call to participate in His act of creation or an act of love for my partner, these things are acts of giving love not selfish self seeking lust.
Not all physical contact is evil or a temptation, we have boundaries deep within our heart that dictate this. If I was to touch my mum is that a temptation? If thats not the case then how much more I should feel a pure sense of love for the one I should marry. If I am tempted more severly because of the sexual function in marriage then that issue has to be addressed and not after marriage.
God bless you all,
CS
According to His Holiness Pope Shenouda, dating is for the sole purpose of a prepartation for marriage. He says that dating is OK. However, dating outside of engagement, should only be done in groups; This is to eliminate the lusts and temptations, that otherwise would not be pursued in a group. Dating is really just a way to get to know the person. It is not something vital to one's social life. I believe that the Pope is right. Dating is for the sole purpose of getting to know someone on a more person and even intimate level. It is quite senseless to almost commit to someone, when not serious. Take Care ya'all
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails!
[move]1st Corinthians 13: 4-8[/move]
You stated that you couldn’t get engaged to somebody you didn’t know, so I ask, would you date somebody you didn’t know? Could you meet somebody for 5 minutes and then ask them to date? I think not. You would have to get to know something of the person before you decided that you wanted to date them. People who are quick to consider dating somebody make those decisions based on physical appearance and lust, which are things that should not be incorporated during the process of selecting the person you would like to spend your life with. I do not see any need to be exclusively dating one particular person to get to know them. You can get to know them and the way they think along with several other people. “Dating” implies a very negative depiction of a person and is seen to be highly immoral.
I must agree that if two individuals desire to sin, surely a label won’t curtail any immoral acts from taking place. On the other hand, I must disagree that dating won’t degenerate ones behavior. If you are “dating” somebody that means that you most likely would have the opportunity to be alone with them. Lets not fool ourselves, we are all humans, we all have hormones, and we all have sexual urges. Being alone with somebody whom you are just “getting to know” is not a good idea. Being with people in groups significantly reduces any chances for immoral events to take place.
Finally, after you have gotten to know several people and one of them stands out in your eyes and you are very fond of them, then an engagement is surely in order. And like you said, this all applies to those who are at least in college. These rules do not apply for teenagers by any means.
-Mark
Basically the centre of how a person needs to approach dating comes down to what their father tells them, be careful not to do something on the basis of what you read in a book, even if it is the Bible without verifying it in confession first. We misinterpret these things too easily, I should know. :-\
I'll be honest I haven't started dating yet and I'm interested in knowing some of your opinions about these things...
God Bless,
CS
However, dating outside of engagement, should only be done in groups; This is to eliminate the lusts and temptations, that otherwise would not be pursued in a group. Dating is really just a way to get to know the person. It is not something vital to one's social life.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails!
[move]1st Corinthians 13: 4-8[/move]
[quote author=CopticSoldier link=board=1;threadid=22;start=15#msg856 date=1082740087]
I'm not sure that ...holding hands
The problem is that if I'm tempted when holding the hands...this couple become instantainiously pure?
Not all physical contact is evil ...be addressed and not after marriage.
[hr]
I totally agree with the above quotes, it is also important to add that the person has to be tottaly open to God about his dating. The person dating should speak to God about his reasons for dating and intentions in his prayer, communications between the person and God help to keep this relationship honest.
My confession father also said that for teenagers, dating in groupsis important to know how the other sex acts and thinks like. It is also preferable to keep away from one one dating because it can lead to temptation.
I am intrested in people's opinion on this matter, please write.
Peter
My confession father also said that for teenagers, dating in groupsis important to know how the other sex acts and thinks like. It is also preferable to keep away from one one dating because it can lead to temptation.
Peter
Perhaps I am terribly mistaken.
Encarta online dictionary:
Dating:
1. activity of going on dates: the activity of going out regularly with somebody as a romantic partner.
Why is it important that teenagers make it publicly known that they are regularly seeing somebody?; even if they are in groups. Wouldn’t that just be called a double date? Triple date...? SURELY, as the civilized and sophisticated creatures that we are, we don’t need to be “dating” somebody of the opposite sex to see how they act or think. There are several other ways of finding out how a people of the opposite gender think, act, and carry themselves; dating doesn’t have to be one of them. So, on this point I must disagree with your father of confession; dating is not important for teens. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a group of teenagers "hanging out", but my definition of dating is in the one stated above. Perhaps I am fixated on the label of “dating”. Does everyone define dating as the way it is above, or do you have different ideas?
My advice is that you use temptation in a posative rather than a negative way. If we are tempted we can do a number of things, we can respond to it or we can resist it ourselves or we can turn to God. The ambition of God in allowing you to be tempted like this is to teach you how weak your fallen nature is and how vulnerable you are. If you realise this it should encourage you to stand before God more earnestly and desperatly seeking his help knowing that your natural inclination is bound by a great burden that you don't have the ability to fight. When you learn this you pray much more and feel a greater sense of thankfulness that God has protected you and he keeps you from making a great mistake you'll grow to regret.
If we resist it ourselves by either running away or taking it on the basis of our own ability we'll quickly see the temptations multiply beyond control. God in His mercy does this to teach us that we orght to look to Him for our healing. I am many others are a witness to this fact!
Basically what God wants to promote in us through something like this is honesty. Do I want to do this? Yes I do and I would if God doesn't protect me. We should never doubt how evil we can act if we depart from God and the devil was allowed to tempt us with all the ferocity he has.
St. John Chyrsostom has a nice quote. There are some temptations that a man just can't resist....
All of them. :)
The truth is that God denies us free will, if he granted us this we'd all perish. I have a little story about this. When I was a few years younger I was stuck in the very same sin your talking about except I wasn't in Church at the time. I came to a point where I was saying to myself "should I stop believing in God?" It was like I was on the edge of a cliff looking down at the sea but somehow this feeling prevailed over me, I never knew what it was but I just couldn't go through with it. I now that that feeling was love, the same love I feel when I think about God today and if He never did that I probably wouldn't be writting this message now.
It is in temptation that we get our greatest blessings so we should moan or complain about temptation. There is a story from the desert fathers.
There was a Father who had a monk who was fiercly attacked by temptation so he asked his son if he wanted him to pray so that the temptation was removed. The young monk responded that he wanted to presevere because it benefitted him greatly.
There is also a story about our desert mother St. Sarah. She was heavily tempted by the sin of lust and she never asked God to take the burden away once but only to give her the strength for the fight.
To put these in context we need to remember a story from the life of St. Anthony. He saw a vision where there was a world full of traps and he cried out God how can one escape this!!!??? The Lord replied HUMILITY Anthony, for it cannot be attained.
So we don't run from our weakness, we confront it by being honest and admitting our weakness honestly before God, our confession father (very very important) and before others also and God in His mercy will deliver us from evil and not only that but use it to build us up.
I hope that this helps.
God bless you,
CS
Dating is something special, it is looked down upon, beccause its use has been abused. I must emphasize, that if dating is used for the right reason and in the right circumstance, then it can be very beneficial.
All the replies to this discussion, i must say, are all words of wisdom...
My opinion on this matter is that when someone asks wut are the Coptic Orthodox views on dating, the question often comes from a troubled and confused youth. Most of the replies i've read so far are directed towards grown ups that are preparing to marry and engage... but they usually know how to act maturly towards dating.
If there are any teens out their reading this... u must understand that u can not start dating till u have reached the age of emotional maturity. We, as teens, are often confuddled... we think that once we hit puberty, we're ready to start dating and get all touchy with the opposite sex... which is ofcourse, WRONG... no one ever said it's wrong to be good friends with the opposite sex... but it is wrong to date and get up close and personal with them...
also, several ppl mention that its okay to 'hang out' in a group as friends... if someone can please define 'hanging out' because we are often misled to believe that its okay to date, or say ur dating, but u must be withing a group from church... and we often follow this with our own misinterpertation that we think is right.
I'd also like to say that as a teen living in America... when i face an issue such as dating... it does have certain religous aspects taht are opposed to it... but it's really morals and ethics
I'f you'd like to go out with someone... fall 'in love' with them (mind you, at a teen age) and then go out with them, whther it b a day or a month or years, in the end... u know ull just have someones heart broken, as u may have observed certain friends after they break up... some ppl think that these experiences make them stronger, but as erini said before, did u ever think about how it's making your heart weaker? what will u have to offer ur husband or wife at the alter of the church? even if you didnt do anything with ur bf/gf.. u still offered them ur heart before you offered it to you husband, or even God... so y go through the pain and agony of a break up... y not just be friends, i'd like to know wuts hte difference between going out with someon, and just have some good old fun wiht a bunch of friends, guys n grls alike? when u think about it.. take away all the kissing and holding hands, etc, and u have a friend... but once u break up or stop dating this 'friend' u'll never return to how it was before u started dating... no matter how hard u try. i guess my main point here is y start a relationship with someone that u know wont last long when u can simply have them as a best friend there by ur side for years to come?
We've all heard the analogy that our bodies are temples of the Lord... but if you allow the feelings of another man/woman to enter into your own heart without God's presence amongst them, then you are defying the Lord and his laws.
1Co 6:13: "Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body."
Dating is just not acceptable until u reach ur university years and beyond and can get serious about a commiting relationship that will remain pure as the Lord intends it to be. (by university years, i usually mean 20+)
And if you haven't learned from the broken relationships and hearts that surround all of us in society today... learn from the words of the Lord: 1Co 6:18:
"Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body." I may be wrong in this interpertation... but if every sin that a man does is outside the body... but sexual immorality is an inward sin... then the Lord also implies sin against the heart and soul... which dating hurts all aspects of ur psyche mind soul heart and especially body... i'm not sure if that makes sense to you, but i tried to put it into words that do make sense.
I often have a lot to say on this topic as you can see, but I'd just like to end this reply with one little note: Just because the world around you is changing, does not mean that you have to destroy the morals and amount of knowledge that God has given to you and follow what the rest of the world is doing... because most of the times, it's the world that's wrong, and ppl that face the world, are often teh ones that are right...because God is on their side!