Back to the foundations levels in heaven and thoughts on intercession of saints

mikeforjesus

There may be levels in heaven. The reward of those not accepting deliverance to obtain a better resurrection in Hebrews below may be to be allowed to pray for anyone that concerns them whose sins do not allow them not to be prayed for. But this may not be true since people would rely on other prayer but could be wrong for everyone is always responsible for themselves and not fair to those who person never met. But the reward may be righteous to be kept just for themselves

But this means not random people but let us suppose them also since we practice it

I’m not sure because I do believe you can’t get to heaven on someone else merit
even st Mary we pray her intercession as a sure help against Satan but I wonder how that is just
Jesus Himself ever lives to make intercession for us therefore we can get to heaven just through Him if we are righteous but we should be humble to ask their intercession incase we can not
I guess though He may make exception for us as Job friends were forgiven by Job prayer as an honor to Job and some of those who sinned in Moses time were forgiven for his sake for they commit sin not leading to death meaning sin that intercession can not atone for
So what about those who don’t ask for the saint intercession is it fair they don’t receive ?
Therefore I wish to say we can not get to heaven based on another merit also the sin not leading to death may be sin we are struggling hard to overcome which we haven’t been able to but their prayers only justify us if through their prayers we rise from the fall

But we say in the liturgy as said by st Basil may their intercession be with us all so even those who don’t reject it willingly are maybe cared for and maybe they pray that we all learn about it

Back to levels in heaven in Hebrews it is also mentioned lest we be like Esau who sought to inherit the blessing but it is too late. It seems it may not be too late for any sinner now to escape that. Therefore I believe there may be 2 repentance one to be worthy of heaven and one to be a saint
everyone who is a saint may have same reward and maybe their reward is to help others
Or we must all be saints through their prayers
There is no sadness in heaven
Though there are rewards the one with less reward is not like Esau who lost blessing

I believe therefore there are levels in heaven

Perhaps I am trying to please people too much and would lead to carelessness either teaching this way not preparing them for salvation or rewards. I think saints want a better resurrection to help others but I don’t know

The other thing I want to say we must not trust anyone blindly even church fathers if intercession of saints is wrong then the church father rightly appears a wolf in sheep clothing to some Christians even if unwillingly and especially if that means their prayers don’t have to make us righteous. We believe others prayers now can help us now so we believe in gaining blessing of merit of others so why not the saints who have passed ?
The bereans were commended for not trusting blindly but searching scriptures diligently if what Paul taught is true

I have to follow reading on intercession of saints as it will be a great blessing I haven’t been healthy or disciplined to read some books I know. It would help if others would teach the reason for this doctrine more often and more deeply

Hebrews 11:35-38 (NKJV)
35 Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented—38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

mikeforjesus

mikeforjesus said:

may be to be allowed to pray for anyone that concerns them whose sins do not allow them not to be prayed for

I meant do allow them to be prayed for

Joshuaa

Not to get to heaven on someone's merit but their commend through prayer.
If a saint prayed for me then he commends me before the Lord that the Lord sees worthiness upon what is righteous and good. In other words the Lord will help upon the saints recommendation through the saints prayers

mikeforjesus

Thanks for your reply Joshuaa but the way I see it God does not need a counselor to say whether I am good or not. He sees. But I guess you are right as I may see you are agreeing with me in a different way that God spares them for the saints sake if one commits sin not leading to death but I guess you may be saying more the reason it is accepted is because they are righteous if the saint pity them according to righteousness sake.

mikeforjesus

My dad believes the saints only help in earthly things. I said if it was not for Moses intercession those who sinned would not have been forgiven. He said that is all old testament. God is the one who honors people not for us to bow down to them he says. I said what about Joseph who was to be honored by all the people to keep the people alive? He said that is all old testament Joseph was a type/symbol of christ.
I can not defend his views for him but if he defended it the church may agree it is orthodox.
I thought he was saying to me he does not believe anyone is the cause of another salvation but I may be wrong he just means we do not cause other sin to be forgiven we just have to live as good Christians. Do then they not deserve bowing Augustine says there are different joys in heaven for other virtue but no one envy the other for it. Does not some have authority over more cities ?


Also my dad believes the priest is not who forgives sin and can choose not to forgive in confession and forbid communion. God is the one who forgives sin and has given authority only to priests to determine they are truly living in christ so they can complete the salvation through communion. The priest does not forgive sin they simply testify to your repentance and relationship with Christ so they can help you not face condemnation from communion. But my dad also believes the priest should not give communion to people if it is on biblical grounds such as those who do not forgive others and those who make no attempt to reconcile. Also those who practice sin without attempting really wanting to change. But it seems a contradiction so it may be rather he means he should warn against it but he should leave it to everyone to examine themselves only if it is a doubtful thing and he can not be 100% sure.
Now I would like to talk about what St. Paul said about salvation being not of works but of living faith my dad did not talk about this but he is probably aware. Abraham was saved before the circumcision because he was going to circumcise as he must when he gets the chance ? Can we not say the same about communion ? But most Protestants would never would do so if they were alive so it is different matter

Also I believe in my dad we have to stop saying to protestants they are not christian. God is able to make them see they need to be orthodox if they have to be. Our job is just to defend our faith and follow orthodoxy because we know it is true.

Joshuaa

Quite right Mike we do not say protestants are not Christian because they are followers of Christ.
However we do believe they are heretics because they have lessened their means of salvation. Doing away with some of the Holy Sacraments for example.
I try to avoid arguments or comparison and if it comes up just explain our faith well my fundamental understanding anyway.
Pray for them.

Joshuaa

The priest hears our confession and gives absolution, which is to absolve us or purify us or make us clean. I read a quote that confession is second baptism.
But if you pray for someone and God helps them it is not you who actually helped them but that contributed to their improvement.
I could ring an ambulance but it's the paramedics who help.
Jesus heals us from sin changing us for what is good and in a way prepares our hearts that it is a temple and we know what Jesus did to the money changers in the temple.

mikeforjesus

Thanks for your reply Joshuaa I do think we are much in agreement. I think we can judge the faith as heresy not so much the people which only God can help