Corruption in the church?

Girgisantony

I've heard that Bishop Daniel of Sydney payed money to two bishops who then recommended to Pope Shenouda that he be ordained a bishop. The story goes on to say that Pope Shenouda suspended Bishop Daniel for this reason until he could investigate the matter further. This was towards the end of Pope Shenouda's life so as he became ill, he wasn't able to carefully look into the situation. Then when Pope Shenouda passed away and Anba Pachomios became locum tenens. As locum tenens, Anba Pachomios held several synod meetings. At one of these meetings, the entire Holy Synod supposedly reinstated Anba Daniel to the diocese of Sydney. There are many more allegations of corruption against Anba Daniel that I do not wish to get in to.

My questions are: Are these allegations true? What are the implications if they are true? What should be done?

(Note to the admin: please don't delete this forum, if the allegations are false that needs to be known. If they are not, a serious discussion has to be had and it should not be silenced.)

Girgisantony

Here is a link to a Facebook post about this:
https://www.facebook.com/girgis.ghali.1/posts/566794607045202

minasoliman

There are very few people in the world who are privy to the type of information you are asking for, none of which I bet you post on online fora.

But if you ever find out the answer, ask the same person about what happened in Area 51, if there were aliens there.

qawe

I don't have any inside information regarding the allegation of simony, and you probably can't trust anyone who claims they do.  But just to clarify the accusation is that the money was transferred from the diocese funds after his enthronement as bishop.

Here are the supposed witnesses, you can make your own judgement as to their credibility:

https://www.facebook.com/sherif.farouk.77/posts/1813211572030320

https://www.facebook.com/sherif.farouk.77/posts/1826837187334425

What is fact is that Pope Shenouda ordered Bishop Daniel back to Egypt in 2009.  Bishop Daniel was only given permission to return to his diocese after HH's repose.

These allegations (and others) had been investigated by Bishop Tawadros in his visit to Sydney in 2012 with two other bishops.  The result of this investigation and synod meeting, etc, was Bishop Daniel's return to Sydney.  Especially now that Bishop Tawadros is Pope, that decision is final.  So the "implications" as you put it are the same regardless of the truth of these allegations - Bishop Daniel will remain bishop of the diocese of Sydney.

minatasgeel

There is a handful of people that are posing these allegations against Anba Daniel without any proof. I say without any proof because, if there was proof, these wouldn't be allegations anymore but facts....and it would of been really really hard for any priest, let alone the bishops to ignore those facts. Specially, considering that the alleged scandal includes two other bishops. Even if you consider the girl that was escorted out of the event, Christine Selwanis i think is her name--nothing she said in vids on her page tells any facts or proofs for the allegations. All are just rambling words for not getting the attention of the pope or the hierarchy. 

Also, this is not new ... people are only talking about it now because the Pope is actually there, and I guess they don't think he knows about this. You also have the evil "conspiracy theories site" masihomasr that just loves to pour gasoline on any small fire it finds church-related. 

[edited...i was wrong about Anba Daniel being called to Egypt]

So, let's not waste our time on this.

mikeforjesus

I won't comment more if you don't want me to.
But is it important to clear bishop Daniel name if it is true so the people don't have problems with the bishop ? we have to know why some priests don't like him. The pope needs simply to tell the bishop to stop interfering in things the priest is responsible for. The bishop has some things his job and some things not his job.
The money thing is probably due to bishop Daniel raising money for charity.
We shouldn't have to be the ones wanting to teach bishop Daniel right from wrong. Let the church clergy deal with things properly and let them love even their enemies and try to make peace for all the diocese of sydney

minatasgeel

mikeforjesus

Can someone translate dear brother Mina ? I should learn Arabic if I want to interact with you guys. My family is not always interested to translate for me.

mikeforjesus

If we attack someone for being a sinner how are we fulfilling the mission of Jesus as apostles. We call them devils but we were all enemies of Christ. Jesus came even to those who are doing the devils work making porn films ect.
It is for whom Christ died. No one is evil until they are dead. I know the church knows this but she don't know the church is innocent

The whole problem is she just sympathises with people who left the church but she don't know they don't care and just want to use this to take people away from church. We harm the church if we allow them to do what they want but we can be loving. Therefore we can excommunicate in love.
It is not total excommunication if they want to repent just as we should forbid communion for those who don't forgive

Zoxsasi

Who honestly cares about this?

Let's say it's true. So what?
Let's say it's false. So what??

The accusation sounds childish.

I know we have problems in our church, and I know that bishops can do crazy things, but why is this of anyone's business??

It seems like such a small issue.

Girgisantony

If it's true, it's not a small issue because that means a bishop is guilty of simony and the integrity of the Holy Synod can be considered questionable. If it's false it's still important because then we can restore any lost trust in the hierarchy of the Church. So I respectfully disagree.

mikeforjesus

I agree with zoxasi but these verses are important.

Galatians 6:1-2
1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

You can have no hatred but you should also show gentleness

mikeforjesus

Jesus said he who receives a child in my name receives me. He is talking about listening to people who want attention to guide them to the truth.
He said if any cause one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin it is better for him if a millstone be hung around his neck

mikeforjesus

I believe bishop Daniel when reporting what happened with the incident of police said not to press charges as she is our daughter. But I suppose to convince people he should say we love our daughter but she is doing wrong on tv. He can be affectionate. I apologise as 2 peter says I have to be afraid of speaking evil of dignitaries since I am corrupt myself and deceive myself

The people who she is harming are those outside the church not inside the church. Those inside the church want to follow her destructive ways

qawe

@Girgisantony

It's not like this is the only allegation of simony in church history - or even recent history. You need to place these sorts of things in their proper context. Clergy are fallible and in 2nd/3rd world countries financial transparency isn't valued as much as in the West. This makes it harder to prove rumours wrong or right.

minasoliman

@Girgisantony

What will happen to your personal Orthodox faith if the allegations are true?  Will you lose your faith?  Or will you be the one who will try to help everyone's faith in the Orthodox Church around you to be stronger despite the fallibility of certain men in the Synod?

Joshuaa

Repentance is always the key. If there is no repentance then it means we are always hitting the target and that we are perfect. I know it's not true and I believe there needs to be more emphasis and commitment towards repentance than the present state where people are finding it easier to protect reputation, self-esteem or dignity. At the moment people are quite comfortable to hide behind these things and deny anything than face sin.

1 Corinthians 16:13-14
13 Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong.
14 Let all that you do be done with love.

mikeforjesus

All should focus on repentance we can't force anyone. God will be the judge of right and wrong

mikeforjesus

God protect His Holy Church. This issue is old since ancient times and since a decade or so ago it seems jesus said there would be tares it don't matter who it is it don't take away from fact that it is God church. It is proof that it is but it should hopefully happen only sometimes for the devil will try to corrupt God house and it is written if you come to serve the Lord prepare for temptation. But the proof that it is God house is that God will protect its image either by giving repentance to those corrupting it or if he has to destroying its opposition. Let us pray seriously privately if we have to or publicly if we can show respect to our enemies
Jesus said not to try to uproot the tares. We all need to not contribute to the problem but this is probably why people are worried about corruption from this old issue started from someone and most people being babies in Christ not expecting the church could have any fault but be perfect so they overreacted

mikeforjesus

Matthew 23:1-4
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers

Matthew 23:13-14
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

I do not worry for the priests about this condemnation as much as myself. Many priests are humble and loving and wise and know how to attract people to church without compromising faith but I am not. A priest who is not humble can actually make others perish. They can make me twice as much a son of hell. Notice Jesus never said not to submit to the church you have to to take communion He said they have law of Moses and he meant Pharisees would continue to exist in the world having authority over believers which means priests
At first I did not agree to call pope Tawadros Melchizedek because the glory should be to God and jesus is worthy as He is perfect. But God gave that honor to the priesthood that we may never speak evil of our leaders. God gave that honor to mean He will work through the church just as He worked with jesus

We have to obey the church yet they can cause us not to enter the kingdom, how ?

I guess that only applies to non humble priests they are not our priests. The ones who know they are not interested in truth and especially those perverting church. I witnessed bishop Daniel as very loving person and tries to do what is right while respecting the church

A priest should not have more knowledge than us is the meaning of jesus saying do not call anyone on earth your teacher

If he does he is our teacher

Matthew 23:9-12
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

The church is our teacher if we resist the priest when he is upholding the church we resist God

He isn't our teacher until we confirm he is or we don't know he is wrong if we don't know we have to regard him as our teacher

Another thing st James had the same ability to know the truth and excelled peter in acts debate of circumcision but God gave peter the gift to determine who is correct. James may not have known without peter. The pope is peter first among equals and in this way I just described he is teacher also without violating call no one on earth your teacher

mikeforjesus

Do you want to be worthy to sit on the seat of Moses ? The one who never prays for his enemies does not because Moses did though he sometimes did not apparently if he needed to discipline them or they are unchangeable then he didn't at all. Moses was chosen because he wanted to make peace between Israelites

mikeforjesus

The church is perfect because if the pope is honest he will be infallible if he listens to all clergy. If he is not honest God will remove him as pope

Some things are given because they don't want to lose the flock but they are still sin in church eyes but they give them freedom not to listen to church advice on best path to be saved and they can be saved but harder or maybe not harder or maybe saved just as easily but less righteous . Those who are saved but less righteous are still treated as though as righteous as St Mary. Your not supposed to leave your first love if nothing happend but you just fall out of love and fight. The one who refuses to reconcile has essentially divorced their spouse

I won't remarry if my wife commits adultery because I don't want her to remarry because it can bring God judgement on them as world will be less pure. That's the only solution I see so I follow it.

mikeforjesus

mikeforjesus said:

I do not worry for the priests about this condemnation as much as myself. Many priests are humble and loving and wise and know how to attract people to church without compromising faith but I am not. A priest who is not humble can actually make others perish. They can make me twice as much a son of hel

This sounds bad reading again (I meant to be non judgemental to priests it is non judgemental but only those who understand) because people may not perceive what I am trying to say. I know some bad people out of the church will try to say they don't want to go to church because of priests. It is not priest fault but mostly me for speaking bad about questioning fairness of church.
Just because many can not perceive church is good because of me doesn't mean the priests did not represent church good. But still some may

Girgisantony

So I thought about this issue a little more and I've come to the conclusion that it's not my business. If it's true, only God can judge and do something. If it's not I committed a grave sin by gossiping and slandering the integrity of apostolic succession. I pray that God forgives me for getting involved in something that has nothing to do with my salvation. I ask you all to forgive me as well. It would be nice if this was the last comment on this thread. (Note to the admin: please close this discussion or delete entirely if necessary). Please forgive me