The "Grand heresy of ecumenism"

basemwilliam

Here are the words of one famous "Heretic" who was a "Believer" in the "Grand heresy of ecumenism". Do you recall who was that "Heretic" (Capitalization intended!!)

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

If you are offended by this, hope you can understand my anguish with all the disturbing I things I had been reading from all sorts of fundamentalist "Christians" especially those who stand firm on the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Schisms including clergy, monks, and elders!

God bless!

minatasgeel

I am a bit confused on what is the intention of your comments...some clarification in clear direct words would be beneficial. I think i know where this is going...but i don't think indirect references will be helpful at all in making a point.   

basemwilliam

The point is the least relevant opinion in Christianity is the opinion of our Lord Jesus Christ!

minatasgeel

That's not a clarification....that playing with words that still don't make any sense. 

basemwilliam

Feel free to disregard or delete as appropriate - I regret posting anyway

minasoliman

Basem, why are you anguished? Christ's prayer has nothing to do with ecumenism. There is good ecumenism and there is ecumenism that could be detrimental. Some have expressed complete opposition against all ecumenism, which is too stubborn-minded. But at the same time, one needs to be sympathetic to those voices who seem to be very worried about their Church's involvement and how it might effect the Orthodox phromena of their Church. It is something I have a great sympathy especially with many of the Protestant and Catholic infiltrations we as Copts suffered from the last century or so.

Nevertheless, continue to pray, rather than being frustrated. Try to be understanding than quick to judge.

God bless you.

mikeforjesus

Yes we need to repent which starts with accepting all those outside the church who do not believe in heresy. I don't know how we can reconcile with catholics who do not believe one needs to believe in jesus to be saved or with eastern orthodox who believe the same by believing non christians can be prayed out of hell and some of them believe all might be saved and some preach it. Before accepting sincere christians outside the church who do not join the church because of fear of turning their christian parents and siblings from jesus it is better but not necessary to accept them after we perhaps accept those in our churches who follow such heresies who may not be heretics because they did not start it but it is actual teaching of their churches right now. The leaders of the church must repent even if they do not know better if they can know better but those who are not leaders who do not know better need to repent if they know the truth that they are probably making less be saved rather than helping them which is their intention.   I think those who think they are helping by accepting non christians can be saved but we who believe better must preach the truth. They should be accepted because they are believers but it better we all repent and have union that more should be saved. But if we do not accept sincere christians outside the church then we will not be allowed or excused to follow heresy. I hold the unity of believers who love Jesus. I insist God gives them the Holy Spirit but if their church is full of lazy and wicked pastors for confession they should seek those who would help them which may be going to another church but they may able to follow Jesus alone and not feel the need for pastors. And God may take it as though they had communion through desire. Will they miss out by not going to our orthodox talks? I hope God will compensate. They should strive to enter the church for Jesus to make it seem right to their loved ones if that is possible

basemwilliam

To be clear: I am not proposing ecumenism in terms of unifying worships, liturgy, or even doctrine! I am talking about Christians stop using the deterimental word "heretic" and stop glorifying the Church scandalous history. Yes, the Chuch has been a scandale to the name of Christ; now each little church trying to defend itself about "haven't done anything wrong" doesn't help anyone. If I have 2 daughters and 1 is baptized in a church and 1 in another and there are bishops and elders on each side calling the other "heretic" what is to come of my family. I am supposed to present my children as a gift to God being raised in love and fear of God as witnesses to Christ and the Glory of God! That is where my anguish is!! Hope you can understand beyond sectarianism. You are familiar with the writing of Fr Matta Almaskeen (called both a Church Father and a heretic - recall Origen?) who saw "Christian rebirth" as a work of Grace through faith and not "affiliation". Lord have mercy!!

basemwilliam

"Try to be understanding than quick to judge"

I am not judging! I am protesting for being judged. I regret to say that I had peace in my life more when I was living like an atheist than when I sought God back (or may be God sought me back - I don't know!). I have no safe place to talk (among Copts, Eastern Orthodox, or even my own family). If anything, Christians (of all "genres") have terrorized one another with the accusation of heresy and had no trouble condemning others to the fires of hell (for minor dispute in theology). Orthodox and Catholics alike use the dogma of "no salvation outside The Church" (capitalization intended) despite the lack of proper biblical support of such sectarian dogma (of course each is specifically referring to their "church"). And, they wash their hands by saying: "well, we welcome all but you have to "repent" and we pray for you". Two grave lies are here: (1) It is unlikely that anyone is actually praying (down on knees, prostrated, and  in tears and fully consumed pleading for mercy for one's and his brethren souls) because such "prayer" regenerates the heart significantly and would be unlikely that anyone who prays like this can write angry comments about anything; (2) Not sure what particular "sin" to "repent" of?? Offending "The Church" by refusing to believe in the "Tome of Leo", offending "The Church" in refusing to believe in "papal primacy" or offending "The Church" by being forthcoming to forgive the blood of Coptic martyrs shed by the vicious Byzantine empire led by its "Emperor Patron Saints" in addition to desecrating St Dioscorus teeth and hair by communing with the Byzantine Satanists who commune with "Emperor Saints". Seems ridiculous, to a "heretic" like me, that The Blood of Christ is perhaps not too able cleanse even the "Emperor Saints" of their sins. 

The hypocrisy of sectarianism has no ending: I was on a "conservative Catholic" website and they were accusing their Pope Francis of saying "that some that The Church has labelled as heretics may actually be Saints". The same website lamenting the canonization of Mother Theresa of Calcutta because she had "unorthodox views" in her book of prayer and meditation. Well, the Catholics dig a deep hole for themselves by proposing "papal infallibility" . Now in their "sectarian arroganism ", they have no mechanism to get rid of the "ecumenical heretic pope" - what a tragedy indeed?   

Actually, "The Church" have evolved from being a "Body of Christ" into an IDOL to be worshiped. It is ridiculous that while the condemnation of Eutyches was unanimous (and truly "Ecumenical") because he refused to profess the humanity of Christ while all churches refuse to acknowledge the humanity (aka "fallibility") of their fathers! Origen professed his faith in Christ through torture, castrated himself, lived a strict ascetic life, spent a life time studying the scriptures, fought agnosticism, was ready to for martyrdom (his mother hid his clothes so he won't follow his father to martyrdom) yet he is a "heretic" because he lacked "theological precision" although he was "pre-Nicene". Even worse, he was a "universalist" (saw God as "consuming fire" that will come at the end and Christ will redeem ALL CREATION (no ifs, ands, or buts) to Himself eventually) and the "Church Fathers" and their "Emperor Saints" can't accept salvation unless they bestow it!! They control access to the gates of heaven and marry religion and politics and you have the Roman/Byzantine ugly two headed monster bird that carries the sword with one had and the cross with the other !! It is even ridiculous that Orthodox and Catholics are demonizing Calvin; they are also "Calvinists" in their very beings but they just have overtaken the authority of redemption from God to their church; a new twist on "total depravity" Calvin=you are not capable of reaching out to God, He has to reach out to you vs Church=you are not capable of reaching out to God, you have to go through The Church (mind you which "Church" that is?). 

Christians of all "genres" are conflicted in their very being and I am growing tired and weary of ALL CHRISTIANS. My heart can't denounce Christ the Lord crucified - I profess him my Lord and my God but apparently that is isn't enough for some!! Lord have mercy!!!!!!!!!!

basemwilliam

Pardon me that I left Protestants out - that wasn't my intention! I would rather be annihilated as a "heretic" than being accused of promoting a "protestant agenda to infiltrate the church". I actually don't find anything more offensive than being accused of having a "hidden religious agenda"! 

Ok, protestants where I start? I can probably write volumes. For a start about half are "Calvinists"; i.e. they follow Calvin's doctrines. If you don't know what they are, and you are not so inclined to just totally ignore my babbling, Dr Goggle would be your friend but briefly Calvin proposed that sin has damaged us severely that we even have no way of freely choosing to have faith in God and God has predestined some of us to be saved and if we are in the lucky group there is no nothing we can possibly do to "resist Grace" and the rest of mankind - oh well, bad for them, the "merciful God" has predestined them to eternal hell!! I would rather be a ISIS-style fundamentalist Muslim than being a Calvinist!! What kind of god chooses people arbitrarily to be saved or burned?? 

And for the rest of non-Calvinist Protestants, they view themselves are the only "True Church" and any of the ancient churches as "Satan-headed Churches" with the Catholic Pope being the "Anti-Christ" depicted in the Book of Revelation. In the US, where fundamentalist Protestantism thrives (where you see the famous white-hooded KKK), they never heard about "Orthodox" anyway but the few who may have some vague idea views Orthodox as "Catholic without a Pope" - well, at least that is a good start, eh! If we are not led by an "Anti-Christ" at least there is some hope for our salvation!!!! How many youth and adults attack each other in the US on those matters is despicable. I know a few who abandoned Christianity altogether because they went to a camp (to provide humanitarian relief - ironic, eh?) and other attacked them with "You are heretics, you are going to hell" or "You are Mary-worshipers and your pope is the Anti-Christ" in addition to other deplorable sentiments!! 

Now, hear this and hear this well, the terrorizing words of our Lord: "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea" (Mark 9:42). 

I think I am about done here - does anyone know how to actually delete all posts and close my account indefinitely? Thank you

mikeforjesus

Quote from me on february 7

"Yes we need to repent which starts with accepting all those outside the church who do not believe in heresy. I don't know how we can reconcile with catholics who do not believe one needs to believe in jesus to be saved or with eastern orthodox who believe the same by believing non christians can be prayed out of hell and some of them believe all might be saved and some preach it. Before accepting sincere christians outside the church who do not join the church because of fear of turning their christian parents and siblings from jesus it is better but not necessary to accept them after we perhaps accept those in our churches who follow such heresies who may not be heretics because they did not start it but it is actual teaching of their churches right now. The leaders of the church must repent even if they do not know better if they can know better but those who are not leaders who do not know better need to repent if they know the truth that they are probably making less be saved rather than helping them which is their intention.   I think those who think they are helping by accepting non christians can be saved but we who believe better must preach the truth. They should be accepted because they are believers but it better we all repent and have union that more should be saved. But if we do not accept sincere christians outside the church then we will not be allowed or excused to follow heresy. I hold the unity of believers who love Jesus. I insist God gives them the Holy Spirit but if their church is full of lazy and wicked pastors for confession they should seek those who would help them which may be going to another church but they may able to follow Jesus alone and not feel the need for pastors. And God may take it as though they had communion through desire. Will they miss out by not going to our orthodox talks? I hope God will compensate. They should strive to enter the church for Jesus to make it seem right to their loved ones if that is possible"

Nice words but heresy indeed. As my dad says it is not my job to accept or not accept. But I thought he encourages me to accept protestants but I guess he just wants me not to reject them but have hope for them. He accepts them and if I see them as christians he encourages me to accept them. I do not wish to apologise for these words because I want to be mean but I worry if I am soft on those who make others not saved I will be judged. Jesus says not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord shall enter heaven so we can't be quick to accept any. The question is will non christians be saved who could be saved if we preach the truth if I am soft accepting heretics in the church?  Yes I think the non christians can be saved if there are enough good or wise believers preaching the truth so I am not promoting that heretics can be saved while making others lost because they won't through us. And the reward will go to the good believers. But I am afraid I will not be able to do my duty and so the non christians and me and those who insist to believe in and preach heresy will be lost so I will condemn preaching of heresy only by saying my position and therefore warning until we are strong. But God may have enough people successfully preaching but people have to keep seeking the truth and if they know the truth they are called to preach it incase not

basemwilliam

Dear Mike: take it easy on yourself! Our "duty" is to pray for all and love all and gorify Christ our Lord in our lives by striving in faith to emulate Him. We should trust the wisdom and justice of God the father in judging humanity. After all, He will be "One in All" we don't know what that exactly mean but if we humans (drenched in the filth of our sins) are merciful for our brethren who don't share our doctrine or faith, what would be the position of our high-priest and savior of the world Christ our Lord. We need to place our hope in Him! God bless you!

mikeforjesus

Thank you dear basemwilliam :) I hope I can learn to do that but I believe I must correct my false teaching if I can