@ophadece Glad you brought those hymns up. In terms of the seven tunes- I have several recordings of other cantors that precede m Ibrahim that say them the same way. Those tunes are common tunes and as long as they are fitting correctly on the words there can be differences as you see with all the other hymns that are melismatic as defined by Rem earlier.
Alleuia bai ba bi or fai pe pi - the changes in it are rather simple. the first, I'll have you know that Fr Shenouda maher also says tamiof the same way that cantor Ibrahim says Thamiof. I have heard it from him in recordings and live with the deacons from the church in Rochester. I will share those with you when I get home. The addition of the syllables or sounds like bshoise and things of that nature can or cannot be there. That differed from cantor to cantor and I have tons of recordings to prove that as well. Cantor Ibrahim was told by the linguists in the institute of Coptic language to change that hymn in specific. That wasn't of his own accord but he's taking all the heat for it.
O nim nai - what are your concerns here? The major difference that Muallem Ibrahim here has with other cantors is the 4 note drop near the ending. I asked him about that personally in 2011. He told me to go back and listen to cantor Mikhail. I did and found that that same drop both in o nim nai and kata nikhoros el hegab was indeed four notes and not 3 as other cantors said. He told me many cantors could not reach that last note. Truth be told that really is the case. from a musical standpoint the hymn seems to put into groups of four notes to begin with and the four note drop sounds a lot more accurate pitch wise.
Aribraswawin or aripresvevin for saint Mary- I asked him about it personally in 2014. First of all it is important to note two things. 1) That cantor Ibrahim's recording of it in the 1970s is the exact same as the recording done in 2007. 2) cantor Ibrahim's way is almost exact with a. Cantor Tawfik and the muharraq b. M Habib Alexandria ... I don't remember how Muallem faheem said it but I will get back to you. Turns out cantor Ibrahim learned it from MSadek who although was limited in his knowledge of the very long hymns of the church was the closest to mastering the hymns of the liturgy of saint basil and things of that nature. He spent the most time with cantor Mikhail in the clerical college and many of the variations he has are taught by cantor Mikhail. Ex (pipnevma)He was one of the more vocally talented cantors of his time, up there with C. Wissa Attiya of Luxor.
Joyous Pauline - HICS recording of the joyous Pauline was a recording of m Ibrahim which is a carbon copy of that which he recorded in his own nativity set. The group of hazzat you are questioning have two ways to be chanted. That same group of ornaments is in kyrie eleyson of great lent and in the great hoos. In c mikhails recordings of both of those hymns he says them exactly the same as m Ibrahim. The old cathedral and the cantors there until now say it the exact same way. HCOC also is consistent with M.ibrahim. I will do more research to find out where he specifically learned that hymn from and whether Mfahim handed that to him and all of the old cathedral. The only cantors that differ are m Tawfik, who messed up a few times in the recording of that hymn, and M Farag who also does those low set of ornaments. Cantor gad also follows c Farag. Both seem acceptable but again C Ibrahim does not do anything without a source whether it be audio or oral tradition and logical reasoning.
Also @ophadece... Please explain your concern with bright Saturday.
Mina Tasgeel is correct in the fact that cantor Ibrahim is not a machine. Every other cantor in the history of the church has messed up in a recording before and left it alone. At least cantor Ibrahim makes sure to record accurately. Aside from that all of us deacons make mistakes. The man sings almost 24/7 you don't think he will miss something here or there? And even that he rarely does! The issue now is that all eyes are on him and even people who don't know much about hymns sit and speak and criticize. The other problem is that a method of communication is lacking so people can't ask questions directly and when that happens, they begin to murmur and say a bunch of things that aren't true.
Also one more note on live and recorded! during services we all make mistakes and things don't always come out perfect. If you are talking about the seven tunes live in the cathedral especially that recording all over soundcloud yes the chorus messed a few things up here and there. But live recordings aren't always the standard. That's why he and other cantors record in studio to make sure they are accurate. There are hundreds of live recordings of cantors faheem where he literally butchers certain hymns lol. Psalm 151 being one of them. I believe more complete assessment of all these sources needs to be done before passing judgement.
Just checked about Joyful Pauline, Cantor Ehsan Shokry says it the same way as Ibrahim and learned it directly from Muallem Faheem. Cantor Mikhail seems to have taught it both ways, one to tawfik in Muharraq and one to Faheem. Personally i enjoy both but i feel that the original recording M. Ibrahim has in his nativity set is the best and is put together very well (i mean the words and tune fit perfect in reference to the word et thahem).
Ekhrestos anesty @dg920, I cannot agree more with all what you said and that's why I don't think it's correct to call cantor Ibrahim the most meticulous, or the like. Also forgive me if I say that as @drewhalim said before some people take live recordings as educational material and I believe cantor Ibrahim himself needs to take a clear and a strict stance and say when he has messed up. Is that possible? @minasafwat told us before that cantor Ibrahim's rendering of joyous Pauline is not accurate compared to cantor Gad. I believe this opinion. One last thing I am sorry I sounded to have been passing judgments.. oujai khan ebshois
@ophadece, do you know how unreasonable your claim sounds right now? You want a guy to go up and tell you any time he's messed up for every service and liturgy he's attended in the past 50 years? That doesn't make sense. And no other cantor even admitted to messing a hymn up let alone letting everyone know when. At least Muallem Ibrahim is humble enough to admit when he makes a mistake. Secondly, the Pauline isn't a mistake, if there's something he says more than one way it's not a mistake. And if over the years he continues to fix things and adjust himself that means that he's a humble man who isn't stubborn to say whatever he said before is right and that's it. He is continually looking to do better for us, for those whom he serves. This is something he was handed from pope Shenouda himself.
He's extremely meticulous yes in fact the most meticulous in that he'll learn something two ways and will proceed to use both ways and there isn't anything wrong with that.
If we're gonna bring up Cantor Gad. He has a ton of mistakes too. Let's not go there. Cantor gad for the Pauline just goes straight M Farag, and albair uses m Farag as the source for his production and says the hymn exactly the same way as Ibrahim. Musically, m Ibrahim's sounds better. The pitches are more accurate and the entrances of syllables are more relaxed. Cantor Gad has live recordings where he's messed up completely does that mean he doesn't know what he's doing and needs to let us know when he messed up?
You're acting as if people learning from live recordings is because of m Ibrahim. People have learned from live recordings for years nothing to do with him. If someone is serious in learning and know what they're doing they will learn from an actually studied recording.
What I tried to do in the past posts is show that Cantor Ibrahim does everything he can to be 100% accurate and goes back to older sources than most people now. It's clear with the Pauline that there are two renditions and that they're both acceptable. But look at how many hymns you may see discrepancy in and then research them.
Here's a good analogy. Long before people had the tapes of cantor Mikhail, they were on the (Bakar tapes) and the only people that heard them were those who were working with dr moftah. Ibrahim used to listen to those tapes for 8-10 hours a day. He heard a lot of hymns that no one had known at all like Osanna and he also heard things that m Mikhail stressed that other cantors forgot like the mare pikleeros at the end of the longer papal hymns, or the long ending of the praxis response, or the extra few ornaments in erepo esmo. And the list goes on and on. When he first tried to revive those things there was much resistance because no one knew where they were coming from. Now those things have become common ground because those things are readily available. It also has to do with how much is visible to people, a lot more people take notice of things now and learn and wonder but they don't have the ability to ask and find out.
About the Pauline again. This should show that both are accurate
C. Mikhail - no recording exists but says the same ornaments in two other hymns the same as m Ibrahim
C. Faheem - recording is the same as Ibrahim's
C. Sadek - no recording I know of, may or may not know the hymn, and could be the missing link.
C. Tawfik - says the low way but has other mistakes in the hymn. He also stressed another group of ornaments very closely to C. Mikhail.
C.Habib Alexandria - Same as Tawfik regarding the specific ornaments
C. Farag - same as Tawfik
C. Ibrahim - same as Faheem
C. Gad - Same as Tawfik
C. Ehsan (old cathedral) - same as faheem.
What this outlines to me, is that cantor Mikhail used one rendition in the cathedral itself,and may have taught it one way in the clerical college and there may have been one of those gatherings where he taught cantors in Alexandria and taught them differently. I will watch an interview for m Tawfik and see if he mentions learning it from him there. That would explain the two renditions.
A note regarding c Mikhail that someone told me. They said he would teach two ways sometimes so that if the two cantors ever disagreed on what they learned that would go back to him as their source to basically forever make his recordings a source and to have them always come back to him as the elder. I don't know if it's entirely true, considering the man seemed to have a very giving spirit, but it is a possibility.
I'm just presenting the research. My biggest pet peeve especially in the Coptic Church is that we do everything with a lack of education. I am not the most educated person in the world but before I make statements I look for the answers. Hymnography and hymnology kn the Coptic church is a very complex thing and needs to be approached in scientific and educated ways.
I can assure you C Ibrahim isn't going to just make something up or do it without knowing and not paying attention to detail. Katar Khero 50 years listening to people talk badly about him and he still serves and still works even harder. The man was kept in the institute and the cathedral by two of the greatest saints in today's day for a reason. All of today's love towards the hymns are a result of his efforts and teaching in Egypt and his "embellishments" and use of good voices to present the hymns. Some of the old cantors sound like dead goats. Sorry lol. Not all and not all the time either. I just want to give credit where it's due. Cantor gad learned from cantor Ibrahim and it was Ibrahim who got him to teach and got pope shenoudas approval and he got him his first paycheck and have it to him by hand. problem is we don't see what's behind the TV screen.
@meenasamy, I had the opportunity to listen to the link you posted for the first time today. Where did you get that from? This is a mix between cantor Zaher's style (which I was told from cantor Towfik) and sharat farayhy, and other parts that are a mix "again" between both!!! Would you please let me know who teaches this?
Comments
Glad you brought those hymns up.
In terms of the seven tunes- I have several recordings of other cantors that precede m Ibrahim that say them the same way. Those tunes are common tunes and as long as they are fitting correctly on the words there can be differences as you see with all the other hymns that are melismatic as defined by Rem earlier.
Alleuia bai ba bi or fai pe pi - the changes in it are rather simple. the first, I'll have you know that Fr Shenouda maher also says tamiof the same way that cantor Ibrahim says Thamiof. I have heard it from him in recordings and live with the deacons from the church in Rochester. I will share those with you when I get home. The addition of the syllables or sounds like bshoise and things of that nature can or cannot be there. That differed from cantor to cantor and I have tons of recordings to prove that as well. Cantor Ibrahim was told by the linguists in the institute of Coptic language to change that hymn in specific. That wasn't of his own accord but he's taking all the heat for it.
O nim nai - what are your concerns here? The major difference that Muallem Ibrahim here has with other cantors is the 4 note drop near the ending. I asked him about that personally in 2011. He told me to go back and listen to cantor Mikhail. I did and found that that same drop both in o nim nai and kata nikhoros el hegab was indeed four notes and not 3 as other cantors said. He told me many cantors could not reach that last note. Truth be told that really is the case. from a musical standpoint the hymn seems to put into groups of four notes to begin with and the four note drop sounds a lot more accurate pitch wise.
Aribraswawin or aripresvevin for saint Mary- I asked him about it personally in 2014. First of all it is important to note two things. 1) That cantor Ibrahim's recording of it in the 1970s is the exact same as the recording done in 2007. 2) cantor Ibrahim's way is almost exact with a. Cantor Tawfik and the muharraq b. M Habib Alexandria ... I don't remember how Muallem faheem said it but I will get back to you. Turns out cantor Ibrahim learned it from MSadek who although was limited in his knowledge of the very long hymns of the church was the closest to mastering the hymns of the liturgy of saint basil and things of that nature. He spent the most time with cantor Mikhail in the clerical college and many of the variations he has are taught by cantor Mikhail. Ex (pipnevma)He was one of the more vocally talented cantors of his time, up there with C. Wissa Attiya of Luxor.
Joyous Pauline - HICS recording of the joyous Pauline was a recording of m Ibrahim which is a carbon copy of that which he recorded in his own nativity set. The group of hazzat you are questioning have two ways to be chanted. That same group of ornaments is in kyrie eleyson of great lent and in the great hoos. In c mikhails recordings of both of those hymns he says them exactly the same as m Ibrahim. The old cathedral and the cantors there until now say it the exact same way. HCOC also is consistent with M.ibrahim. I will do more research to find out where he specifically learned that hymn from and whether Mfahim handed that to him and all of the old cathedral. The only cantors that differ are m Tawfik, who messed up a few times in the recording of that hymn, and M Farag who also does those low set of ornaments. Cantor gad also follows c Farag. Both seem acceptable but again C Ibrahim does not do anything without a source whether it be audio or oral tradition and logical reasoning.
I hope I answered your questions.
Mina Tasgeel is correct in the fact that cantor Ibrahim is not a machine. Every other cantor in the history of the church has messed up in a recording before and left it alone. At least cantor Ibrahim makes sure to record accurately. Aside from that all of us deacons make mistakes. The man sings almost 24/7 you don't think he will miss something here or there? And even that he rarely does! The issue now is that all eyes are on him and even people who don't know much about hymns sit and speak and criticize. The other problem is that a method of communication is lacking so people can't ask questions directly and when that happens, they begin to murmur and say a bunch of things that aren't true.
do you have it really??
@dg920,
I cannot agree more with all what you said and that's why I don't think it's correct to call cantor Ibrahim the most meticulous, or the like. Also forgive me if I say that as @drewhalim said before some people take live recordings as educational material and I believe cantor Ibrahim himself needs to take a clear and a strict stance and say when he has messed up. Is that possible?
@minasafwat told us before that cantor Ibrahim's rendering of joyous Pauline is not accurate compared to cantor Gad. I believe this opinion.
One last thing I am sorry I sounded to have been passing judgments..
oujai khan ebshois
He's extremely meticulous yes in fact the most meticulous in that he'll learn something two ways and will proceed to use both ways and there isn't anything wrong with that.
If we're gonna bring up Cantor Gad. He has a ton of mistakes too. Let's not go there. Cantor gad for the Pauline just goes straight M Farag, and albair uses m Farag as the source for his production and says the hymn exactly the same way as Ibrahim. Musically, m Ibrahim's sounds better. The pitches are more accurate and the entrances of syllables are more relaxed. Cantor Gad has live recordings where he's messed up completely does that mean he doesn't know what he's doing and needs to let us know when he messed up?
You're acting as if people learning from live recordings is because of m Ibrahim. People have learned from live recordings for years nothing to do with him. If someone is serious in learning and know what they're doing they will learn from an actually studied recording.
@dg920,
I'm sorry man you got offended that much.. forgive me again..
oujai khan ebshois
Here's a good analogy. Long before people had the tapes of cantor Mikhail, they were on the (Bakar tapes) and the only people that heard them were those who were working with dr moftah. Ibrahim used to listen to those tapes for 8-10 hours a day. He heard a lot of hymns that no one had known at all like Osanna and he also heard things that m Mikhail stressed that other cantors forgot like the mare pikleeros at the end of the longer papal hymns, or the long ending of the praxis response, or the extra few ornaments in erepo esmo. And the list goes on and on. When he first tried to revive those things there was much resistance because no one knew where they were coming from. Now those things have become common ground because those things are readily available. It also has to do with how much is visible to people, a lot more people take notice of things now and learn and wonder but they don't have the ability to ask and find out.
About the Pauline again. This should show that both are accurate
C. Mikhail - no recording exists but says the same ornaments in two other hymns the same as m Ibrahim
C. Faheem - recording is the same as Ibrahim's
C. Sadek - no recording I know of, may or may not know the hymn, and could be the missing link.
C. Tawfik - says the low way but has other mistakes in the hymn. He also stressed another group of ornaments very closely to C. Mikhail.
C.Habib Alexandria - Same as Tawfik regarding the specific ornaments
C. Farag - same as Tawfik
C. Ibrahim - same as Faheem
C. Gad - Same as Tawfik
C. Ehsan (old cathedral) - same as faheem.
What this outlines to me, is that cantor Mikhail used one rendition in the cathedral itself,and may have taught it one way in the clerical college and there may have been one of those gatherings where he taught cantors in Alexandria and taught them differently. I will watch an interview for m Tawfik and see if he mentions learning it from him there. That would explain the two renditions.
A note regarding c Mikhail that someone told me. They said he would teach two ways sometimes so that if the two cantors ever disagreed on what they learned that would go back to him as their source to basically forever make his recordings a source and to have them always come back to him as the elder. I don't know if it's entirely true, considering the man seemed to have a very giving spirit, but it is a possibility.
I'm just presenting the research. My biggest pet peeve especially in the Coptic Church is that we do everything with a lack of education. I am not the most educated person in the world but before I make statements I look for the answers. Hymnography and hymnology kn the Coptic church is a very complex thing and needs to be approached in scientific and educated ways.
I can assure you C Ibrahim isn't going to just make something up or do it without knowing and not paying attention to detail. Katar Khero 50 years listening to people talk badly about him and he still serves and still works even harder. The man was kept in the institute and the cathedral by two of the greatest saints in today's day for a reason. All of today's love towards the hymns are a result of his efforts and teaching in Egypt and his "embellishments" and use of good voices to present the hymns. Some of the old cantors sound like dead goats. Sorry lol. Not all and not all the time either. I just want to give credit where it's due. Cantor gad learned from cantor Ibrahim and it was Ibrahim who got him to teach and got pope shenoudas approval and he got him his first paycheck and have it to him by hand. problem is we don't see what's behind the TV screen.