I do agree with ophadece. There are certain rites for each occasion and each part of the liturgy. The question is what to do once you have exhausted the rite.
Distribution is one event when the rite often gets exhausted, another is during other parts of the liturgy like waiting for the 7amal
If we are going to be rigid on following the rites to the letter, then we are in danger of killing the spirit of prayer for the sake of the rituals.
Good point of course.. I wish I'd known the answer.. there must have been alternatives and rules that are now long forgotten because no one cares anymore.. just get people involved and don't bother too much with coptic language or hymns.. "rites were made for man not vice versa". At the end of the day how full are churches during vespers and midnight praises? oujai
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
My understanding is that there are enough doxologies annual, and also occasional in the psalmody book.. why couldn't we use such instead of melodies and carols? oujai
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
What is wrong with saying "Night of the Last Supper" after Pi Oik of course?
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
What is wrong with saying "Night of the Last Supper" after Pi Oik of course?
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
What is wrong with saying "Night of the Last Supper" after Pi Oik of course?
It dos not follow the Coptic hymnology.
Would you elaborate please? It is, at least, talking about the communion and the Lord.
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
simply because it is included in many of the arabic books, Layle El-'asha elsirri.
Tony, I'm sorry you took my last post as an attack. It wasn't. I was simply trying to show everyone that there is more to alhan than just fulfilling rites. The deacon's first and foremost job is to facilitate the service for the priest (Acts 6:1, 2). In the past, that simply meant gathering the korban offerings and distributing it to the people (Acts 6:1), preparing books and church vessels on the one hand and responding or directing the congregation in the liturgy on the other hand. So when the priest says, "Remember, O Lord, x", the deacon instructs the congregation to "pray for x who did this or that" and the congregation prays or responds with "Lord have mercy". This is the core foundation of the deacons job. It's supposed to work in synergy. As Coptic liturgical services developed, more profound (and longer) musical hymns were created and attached to the services. Eventually, deacons "inherited" the job of directing the congregation in these long hymns. Whether the deacon says a solo hymn or directs the whole congregation in a chorus is somewhat irrelevant. The job of the cantor deacons is still to facilitate the priest's job and direct the congregation in prayer. We are discussing what to do when we loose that synergy. Whether it is the priest who doesn't want to burden the congregation, or the deacons who are not educated in long hymns, or the congregation who no longer respond in prayer, the synergy is broken. It is easy to say that "we must say at least say hymn x in a fast way to fulfill the rite and people will be elevated and return to prayer." I simply think that the clergy feel the deacons who insist on fulfilling a rite by saying all hymns care only about the hymns or themselves and not the congregation. Even if this isn't true (which it usually isn't), the fact that the many clergy believe this only proves that the cantor deacons have not facilitated the priest's job and therefore have not fulfilled their duties. The best solution, as you said before, is to find a middle ground which everyone can agree on so we can bring back the synergy. Sometimes the only solution is to put aside long hymns and rites so more people can participate in the liturgy without offense. Again, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think God will judge us for not saying ALL the hymns in the Kiahk Distribution rite. But I think He will judge us if one person decided to stop coming to Church because that person felt the liturgy was unnecessarily elongated with hymns during the Kiahk distribution. Now I also think God will be fair and maybe the fault is in that person. But if we put the rites over the people than the fault is in us deacons.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=13928.msg161510#msg161510 date=1354057550] I do not see any wisdom in saying the Lord's prayer in Coptic. You are the one claiming that there is wisdom. Personally, I think there is a lot of wisdom in saying the Lord's prayer in Coptic during a Coptic liturgy in a Coptic Church. Notice the recurring theme is Coptic and language is an integral part of identity. But let's agree to disagree. If others don't find value in praying in Coptic, I won't force it down anyone's throat. I accept saying the Lord's prayer in the common language for the people's sake. And in my own prayers, I will say the Lord's prayer in Coptic. The same for hymns. I will learn hymns that no one else wants to learn. I've tried to find a group of educated deacons who do know many long hymns and teach them new longer hymns and they didn't want to do it. If educated cantors don't want many hymns, how would the general congregation feel about it? The middle ground solution, in my opinion, is to say what people know in liturgical services and the longer hymns in my own prayers. One day someone will ask me to teach them a new long hymn and then we can say it together with the priest's approval. Therein lies the wisdom.
How on earth would you know if they were engaged or not? Could you read their mind? Is it not possible that they are meditating on the prayer? Is it not possible that they are learning from the church's theology? Is it not possible that they are internally joyful? I do not think you are in a position to say so.
I am only reiterating what priests have told me. They are many priests who constantly get complaints during confessions about the length of service and the inability to pray or be engage during long services. In fact very recently, one very well known, old priest (ordained by Pope Cyril VI) complained when a younger priest, acting as the cantor, said a long hymn during the distribution. The older priest reprimanded the younger priest publicly during the service because he saw no one was singing with the younger priest. The older priest did this (as he himself said) because so many people complain when they can't sing along. In essence, the younger priest, acting as the deacon, did not fulfill the deacon's purpose of facilitating the older priest's job. The older priest felt personal responsibility and condemnation for services where the entire congregation is not engaged.
What I meant was, we can compromise by saying something simple (easy for the congregation) for communion as long as its part of the distribution rite. I do not really know of any long hymns that are directed to saints other than maybe Apekran, so you kinda lost me. The problem is that sometimes they prefer to do something for saints during the distribution which is not proper and that is why I made that comment.
From the beginning, I concurred with your assessment that saint hymns should not be said during the distribution. I only added the caveat that the congregation's salvation is more important than any rite or hymn as I described above.
forgive me, i did not read all the posts, but 'night of the last supper' is good to sing during Holy Communion because people can understand it and can follow the tune. this way, they can use this song to worship God. in the end, it's about worshiping God.
For some comedy, I'd like to add what my church does year round (Easter, Christmas, Annual etc.)
After Psalm 150, we have a wonderful array of:
+ O Pilgrim + How Lovely +O tell me John + My Coptic Church + The battle belongs to the Lord +You are my hiding place + Shine Jesus Shine....
Pi-oik eh bas? One time, a friend and I decided to sing "Kata Nikhoros" during Sunday in the 50 days, and Abouna turned at us (with the angriest face physically possible) and screamed "Only songs. I don't want hymns!!!!!!!!"
Anyways, thought I'd add some comedy for the fun of it.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13928.msg161562#msg161562 date=1354150560] For some comedy, I'd like to add what my church does year round (Easter, Christmas, Annual etc.)
After Psalm 150, we have a wonderful array of:
+ O Pilgrim + How Lovely +O tell me John + My Coptic Church + The battle belongs to the Lord +You are my hiding place + Shine Jesus Shine....
Pi-oik eh bas? One time, a friend and I decided to sing "Kata Nikhoros" during Sunday in the 50 days, and Abouna turned at us (with the angriest face physically possible) and screamed "Only songs. I don't want hymns!!!!!!!!"
Anyways, thought I'd add some comedy for the fun of it.
Would you elaborate please? It is, at least, talking about the communion and the Lord.
The melody has nothing to with distribution. I do not object to the words , just the music. The annual music follows ja fezmaraowt like Abana Allazy (Our Father who art in heaven), Listen o Congregation of Christ, ....
I did not take your post as an attack. Looking back at my post, it seems I may have used a tone that could have come off that way. Anyway, I just wanted to give attention to what you wrote.
You said: "It is easy to say that "we must say at least say hymn x in a fast way to fulfill the rite and people will be elevated and return to prayer." I simply think that the clergy feel the deacons who insist on fulfilling a rite by saying all hymns care only about the hymns or themselves and not the congregation. Even if this isn't true (which it usually isn't), the fact that the many clergy believe this only proves that the cantor deacons have not facilitated the priest's job and therefore have not fulfilled their duties. "
I think you are over generalizing. Not all priests are like this at all. In fact, many insist on following the rites simply because they are the rites. It is something that was given to us, not so that we can change or alter, but so that we may have a system and unity. I also want to point out that you are basing this on a hunch and not actual fact. Nevertheless, we have rites to keep us organized/unified and without them, we are then subject to a chaotic type of service where anyone could say whatever they wanted regardless of the occasion. This can be harmful to the church.
You said: "Sometimes the only solution is to put aside long hymns and rites so more people can participate in the liturgy without offense. "
Perhaps the participation is not because of long hymns but because of ignorance. This ignorance can be from not understanding the service (the rite), the hymns, or the tradition. Maybe there is no one to teach them hymns. Maybe they do not know what is going on in the Liturgy. Maybe they need direction. Maybe they do not want to even bother. I am not sure you are aware of my opinion because you seem to be implying that I am in favor of chanting all the long hymns in the church every sunday, when that is not the case at all. I said there should be balance. I do not think that chanting a long hymn during one major Lordly feast is an issue, considering all the points I previously mentioned in an earlier post. I mentioned also that there needs to be wisdom! You seem to imply that a long hymn is unacceptable in any circumstance. If that would be the case, then pascha would be so much shorter! But if you think about it, people love pascha week! What if people just decided not to say things like "O monogenees" or "Fai etafenf?" That would be a great shame.
You said: "Again, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think God will judge us for not saying ALL the hymns in the Kiahk Distribution rite. But I think He will judge us if one person decided to stop coming to Church because that person felt the liturgy was unnecessarily elongated with hymns during the Kiahk distribution. Now I also think God will be fair and maybe the fault is in that person. But if we put the rites over the people than the fault is in us deacons."
I never said we should say all the hymns in the distribution rite. All I said was that we should not change the rite and create our own. I think there would be bigger issues concerning an individual who decided to leave the church just because of the hymns.
You said: "Personally, I think there is a lot of wisdom in saying the Lord's prayer in Coptic during a Coptic liturgy in a Coptic Church. Notice the recurring theme is Coptic and language is an integral part of identity. But let's agree to disagree."
You are forgetting one key variable in that equation. No one speaks Coptic anymore (except maybe you, ophadece, and a handful of individuals). I think that there is more to our identity than language (i.e. our faith). I am a Christian first and foremost above all else. I am also really confused by your point because before, you said that it would not be a good idea to pray it in Coptic in order for the people to participate; however, now you are saying that praying it in Coptic is wise. How could it be wise if the goal is to have the people participate?
You said: "I am only reiterating what priests have told me. They are many priests who constantly get complaints during confessions about the length of service and the inability to pray or be engage during long services."
I do not think one hymn would be the reason why people complain (usually its several long hymns). I do not agree that there ought to be many long hymns in the service. Again, the deacons must exercise wisdom and discern when would be the appropriate time/occasion if they were to say a hymn that was long and plan accordingly.
I agree that we should be concerned with allowing them to participate but there is only so much we can do. One long hymn will not send them running to the door if it is done with wisdom. I am reminded of a time when my uncle was explaining the hymn Pekethronos on Good friday and told the congregation the significance and beauty behind the hymn, which made it easier for them to see and contemplate on it, while also enjoying its tune.
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13928.msg161562#msg161562 date=1354150560] For some comedy, I'd like to add what my church does year round (Easter, Christmas, Annual etc.)
After Psalm 150, we have a wonderful array of:
+ O Pilgrim + How Lovely +O tell me John + My Coptic Church + The battle belongs to the Lord +You are my hiding place + Shine Jesus Shine....
Pi-oik eh bas? One time, a friend and I decided to sing "Kata Nikhoros" during Sunday in the 50 days, and Abouna turned at us (with the angriest face physically possible) and screamed "Only songs. I don't want hymns!!!!!!!!"
Anyways, thought I'd add some comedy for the fun of it.
Ray
musiba! this really proves my point that some of the coptic songs are not easy to learn for people to join in and know they belong in the church. to avoid this disaster, we need to sing good orthodox songs in the language of the country we are in, in tunes that can be more easily followed. it's easy to loose concentration after Holy Communion, yet it's the most sacred time of the service, so singing praise to God is a great way to keep people's attention on where they are and what they are doing. pi oik is great, but i'm only just learning the tune halfway now after being for 6 months in a church which sings it every liturgy, i can only imagine how impenetrable the tunes are for outsiders. (psalm 150 is easy enough to learn)
Pi-oik eh bas? One time, a friend and I decided to sing "Kata Nikhoros" during Sunday in the 50 days, and Abouna turned at us (with the angriest face physically possible) and screamed "Only songs. I don't want hymns!!!!!!!!"
And the excuse of "Oh the congregation does not know long hymns" will lead to the end of hymns, end of coptic and we will become the American Orthodox Church, aka Egyptian Protestants. This angers me.
unless you aim for some middle ground between 'only the longest possible hymns with a very difficult tune in a foreign language' and 'easy to sing tunes with heretical lyrics'.
middle ground is not so hard! :o
try 'a few long hymns (half in english), plus a few easy orthodox songs with very good lyrics such as "night of the last supper" ' don't get me wrong, i sing 'tai shori' very loudly (i didn't say very well!) ;) and i love the coptic language, and my favourite song out of all songs in any language is 'thoak ta te gom' (yours is the power, glory and majesty). i just can't wait for Holy week each year to sing it.
but i also know plenty of converts, enquirers and native coptic people who are just asking to worship God in an orthodox Christian way with the use of their minds and not just their voices. surely the upsurge (seems mainly in north america) in protestant songs is because we have FAILED to give the people good ORTHODOX songs to sing that they can relate to.
again, i am not saying 'take the tune of "my guy" and superimpose some orthodox lyrics on a catchy, popular tune. i am saying 'take some established church tune (or write a new one with the help of the priests and bishop) and use some good orthodox words with it. there are ALREADY songs / hymns we can sing for Holy Communion which are allowed and which have been translated well, so PLEASE let us sing them.
Mabsoota, I understand what you are saying. My church now has a liturgy just for English people, directed to converts. All the hymns are in English. Alleluia, the hiteniet, agios, everything! They don't say the Long Psalm 150 intro, they say amen alleluia in english etc. The people who 'are in charge' of the Liturgy are trying to get rid of coptic all together in our church. Without Coptic, it is nearly impossible to say all of our long hymns. Once we lose our long hymns, we basically lose our identity.
In regards to this discussion,
People should learn these long hymns. "The congregation doesn't know the hymns" should not be an excuse to sing madayeh that aren't for communion but rather a reason to teach it to the congregation. I visited St Mark's Church in Raleigh,NC and every Sunday, Abouna Arsanious would be teaching the congregation hymns. The week I was there, he was teaching the 4th hoos in coptic. That is amazing. The congregation's lack of knowledge should not be an excuse to lose our hymns. Even if they don't know the hazzats, the english words are usually on the screen and they can meditate instead of talking in the communion line about what they are making for breakfast.
Let's be honest. If one posits "people (or the congregation) should learn long hymns", then I will say "People should have a reading comprehension of the Coptic language". If you can't do the latter, don't expect the prior.
All the reasons given to promote singing and learning long hymns apply to having a reading comprehension of the language (notice I didn't say a basic reading level only. I said reading comprehension - able to understand and form sentences). There have been many classes given in many churches to teach Coptic properly. I myself have done it many times. With rare exception, everyone is only interested in reading Coptic letters only, not learning the language.
When it comes to hymns, with rare exception, people generally are only interested in certain hymns in Coptic (which are fast and popular), and certain Coptic hymns only in their common language (ie, English or Arabic, or whatever), and never any melismatic hymns. Maybe it's just a hunch. Maybe it's just my observations. But I think it's more than my opinion. It is fact because I've seen many priests rebuke deacons for saying melismatic hymns (and as RO said, even suggesting it gets a reproach).
Again, we will not loose our identity. We will not loose our long hymns. We will not loose our Orthodoxy if we don't sing melismatic (or any) hymns in favor of facilitating the congregation's liturgical experience.
The main thing is to be honest and find that middle ground, even if it is not the solution we want or consider a middle ground.
Well we of course cannot burden people, especially converts with language they don't understand, or nobody understands, or hymns that even natives got tired and rid of.. just follow mabsoota's church orders and returnorthodoxy.. certainly now people interpret the Lord's commandment "seek and you will find" to only refer to the physical act of travelling to church, nothing more nothing less.. and if people come to The Coptic church because She's the most scrupulous, then to appease those we are not any more.. we're not even worthy of being coptic anymore.. why should we, when we don't live in Egypt any longer? oujai
I firmly believe that Coptic hymns form an important and vital part of our rites and identity as the Coptic Orthodox Church.
Those who advocate the removal of these hymns from the services of the Church sadden me, and are doing far more harm than good. You have only to look at some of our sister churches to see the detrimental effects that stem from the gradual loss of their liturgical language.
Some Coptic hymns are long, yes. Some Coptic hymns are difficult to learn, yes. Some Coptic hymns are so obscure they are rarely said, yes.
But all Coptic hymns are deeply spiritual. Their sacred music, their text from the Holy Bible and the Fathers are truly Orthodox, and present to us the correct way of lifting our hearts in prayer before God.
A person doesn't have to know Coptic to understand the meaning of the words being prayed - there are translations for virtually all hymns. It is prayer to merely close one's eyes, to meditate on the words being prayed in the hymn and to lift one's mind and heart to God.
Coptic hymns are a thing to be encouraged, a thing to be preserved, a thing to be revitalised. And I pray that the Coptic Church will always pray in Coptic and retain it's priceless treasure of Coptic Hymns until the end of the age.
With all due respect JG.. no they aren't.. some of them are full of grammatical mistakes, some are boring, and some are invented.. and why should we be keen on keeping the Coptic identity at all? Are we like other churches which value their own treasure and discipline of their forefathers? As long as Christian songs found their way to the liturgy and they are nice, and have nothing wrong in their verbatim, SO WHAT? oujai
just to be clear, i am suggesting doing HALF the hymns in coptic (agreeing with remnkemi), not none of them... i'm sorry if i came across harsh, ophadece, i admire very much your efforts at keeping coptic culture and Christian faith alive. it's precisely because i know that the beauty of the orthodox church is hidden from so many people that i am making a big effort to help them to see it. i get passionate about it sometimes, and even use capitals. i am not in the church to wipe out the coptic culture.
i can read coptic, and i understand some of it. i have to keep working on my coptic, or my Godfather will be disappointed! jg knows who he is, and he will also tell me off if i don't keep it up!
copticuser20, if your church's 'english liturgy' is half or less than half of the time, you still have plenty of time to sing in coptic. i think we should make sure we don't loose our heritage, eg. doing tasbeha. i love tasbeha very much, and i know a few hymns in coptic, not just in english. (thanks to this website) :-*
but we should also pray with our minds, and our minds are not so bright, so we should sometimes sing in our own language as well.
Dear mabsoota, of course you know how much I respect you.. I seriously wasn't talking about you or that you were advocating anything.. I'm just very disappointed and fuming from church authorities all over the world now who discourage use of coptic.. how is this happening? I don't understand.. this wrong teaching gave converts the false idea that Christian songs are OK to sing during liturgy.. THAT'S WRONG WITH A DEEP DEEP PASSION, and it's spreading, and it happens in my own church.. I leave them when they do that.. well most of the time, but I myself need to learn to be more honest and meticulous in spreading the teachings of my forefathers I never felt this before this strongly, sstrongly yes but not that much.. my own father died last year, and a man who taught me values and principles within the Egyptian culture, I'm by no means ever going to change or give that up for a dime.. I live in a multicultural society and they do respect me this way.. that's why I'd be upset of Fr. Peter's or whoever else's suggestions that I shouldn't live like this or teach this to my kids.. my father was my father, and I am not listening to whatever other pieces of ill advice there may be.. not talking about Fr. Peter now of course; I mean the global mindset of having 7990 cultures too many (or languages as a subset of such) I DO NOT CONSIDER THE COPTIC CHURCH MULTICULTURAL FULL STOP. oujai
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=13928.msg161625#msg161625 date=1354348488] BTW forgot to say my next to last post was directed a great deal at what Copticproud said too oujai
Wait, me? Why lol All what I asked was a question out of ignorance. The fact that it is included in many of the arabic books, and that the words are all about the communion made me think that it was ok to sing. Sorry, if my ignorance offended you...
Why can't we use liturgy hymns during Communion? That was certainly one of the more established practices previously. In Kiahk it would still be fitting to lengthen the Gospel responses. No one sings Pa[oic during the Liturgy proper, why don't we sing it during Communion? Same things for Pipneuma for Pentecost, vai pe `vlemyn for the fast of the Virgin, etc. That is of course after finishing all the appropriate doxologies for the day, and there is no shortage of such in Kiahk. Oujai qen `P[C
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=13928.msg162157#msg162157 date=1356183411] there is no shortage of such in Kiahk.
Actually in my church last week, we sang Psalm 150 in the long tune, long Je Fesmaraoot, Efemepsha ghar, the weekly tamged, and Abouna was just about to start to commune the blood to the ladies (We have one priest). We asked Abouna what to sing next and he said sing the "The Burning Bush" since we donot get to sing it in Tasbehat Kiahk. Even after that we had some time left so we sang part of "Amen Alleluia."
On another note, what do you guys think of this https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/281631_228916740486386_3971170_n.jpg? For people who do not read Arabic, this is the from the Holy Synod's meeting of 05/26/2007. It says, "In the month of Kiahk, the refrain for psalm 150 is "The Begotten of the Father before all ages, came and took flesh from the Virgin." In Coptic, Pimici evol khen efiout khagaoi neoowon tero."
Comments
Distribution is one event when the rite often gets exhausted, another is during other parts of the liturgy like waiting for the 7amal
If we are going to be rigid on following the rites to the letter, then we are in danger of killing the spirit of prayer for the sake of the rituals.
oujai
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Imikhail,
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
oujai
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=13928.msg161544#msg161544 date=1354140857]
Imikhail,
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
What is wrong with saying "Night of the Last Supper" after Pi Oik of course?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13928.msg161545#msg161545 date=1354141020]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=13928.msg161544#msg161544 date=1354140857]
Imikhail,
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
What is wrong with saying "Night of the Last Supper" after Pi Oik of course?
It dos not follow the Coptic hymnology.
[quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=13928.msg161548#msg161548 date=1354143214]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13928.msg161545#msg161545 date=1354141020]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=13928.msg161544#msg161544 date=1354140857]
Imikhail,
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
What is wrong with saying "Night of the Last Supper" after Pi Oik of course?
It dos not follow the Coptic hymnology.
Would you elaborate please? It is, at least, talking about the communion and the Lord.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=13928.msg161544#msg161544 date=1354140857]
Imikhail,
I don't think any of us has the right to decide what is appropriate to say and what is not (once all hymns of the rite have been exhausted). This matter should be brought up to the clergy like the priest or bishop if he is running the diocese (I know that H.G. Anba Youseff is totally against saying things like the "the burning bush" during communion). The point is, we are not in a position to dictate what is appropriate concerning hymns outside of the rite.
Ophadece,
you have a very valid and reasonable point. Why should we mix rites up? There is no point.
Yet we have in the Southern diocese "Night of the Last Supper" tarneema as part of the distribution rite. Very odd indeed.
simply because it is included in many of the arabic books, Layle El-'asha elsirri.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=13928.msg161510#msg161510 date=1354057550]
I do not see any wisdom in saying the Lord's prayer in Coptic. You are the one claiming that there is wisdom.
Personally, I think there is a lot of wisdom in saying the Lord's prayer in Coptic during a Coptic liturgy in a Coptic Church. Notice the recurring theme is Coptic and language is an integral part of identity. But let's agree to disagree. If others don't find value in praying in Coptic, I won't force it down anyone's throat. I accept saying the Lord's prayer in the common language for the people's sake. And in my own prayers, I will say the Lord's prayer in Coptic. The same for hymns. I will learn hymns that no one else wants to learn. I've tried to find a group of educated deacons who do know many long hymns and teach them new longer hymns and they didn't want to do it. If educated cantors don't want many hymns, how would the general congregation feel about it? The middle ground solution, in my opinion, is to say what people know in liturgical services and the longer hymns in my own prayers. One day someone will ask me to teach them a new long hymn and then we can say it together with the priest's approval. Therein lies the wisdom. I am only reiterating what priests have told me. They are many priests who constantly get complaints during confessions about the length of service and the inability to pray or be engage during long services. In fact very recently, one very well known, old priest (ordained by Pope Cyril VI) complained when a younger priest, acting as the cantor, said a long hymn during the distribution. The older priest reprimanded the younger priest publicly during the service because he saw no one was singing with the younger priest. The older priest did this (as he himself said) because so many people complain when they can't sing along. In essence, the younger priest, acting as the deacon, did not fulfill the deacon's purpose of facilitating the older priest's job. The older priest felt personal responsibility and condemnation for services where the entire congregation is not engaged. From the beginning, I concurred with your assessment that saint hymns should not be said during the distribution. I only added the caveat that the congregation's salvation is more important than any rite or hymn as I described above.
Please forgive me if I have offended you.
this way, they can use this song to worship God.
in the end, it's about worshiping God.
After Psalm 150, we have a wonderful array of:
+ O Pilgrim
+ How Lovely
+O tell me John
+ My Coptic Church
+ The battle belongs to the Lord
+You are my hiding place
+ Shine Jesus Shine....
Pi-oik eh bas? One time, a friend and I decided to sing "Kata Nikhoros" during Sunday in the 50 days, and Abouna turned at us (with the angriest face physically possible) and screamed "Only songs. I don't want hymns!!!!!!!!"
Anyways, thought I'd add some comedy for the fun of it.
Ray
For some comedy, I'd like to add what my church does year round (Easter, Christmas, Annual etc.)
After Psalm 150, we have a wonderful array of:
+ O Pilgrim
+ How Lovely
+O tell me John
+ My Coptic Church
+ The battle belongs to the Lord
+You are my hiding place
+ Shine Jesus Shine....
Pi-oik eh bas? One time, a friend and I decided to sing "Kata Nikhoros" during Sunday in the 50 days, and Abouna turned at us (with the angriest face physically possible) and screamed "Only songs. I don't want hymns!!!!!!!!"
Anyways, thought I'd add some comedy for the fun of it.
Ray
ya 3iny 3alikom.....truly comedy.
I did not take your post as an attack. Looking back at my post, it seems I may have used a tone that could have come off that way. Anyway, I just wanted to give attention to what you wrote.
You said: "It is easy to say that "we must say at least say hymn x in a fast way to fulfill the rite and people will be elevated and return to prayer." I simply think that the clergy feel the deacons who insist on fulfilling a rite by saying all hymns care only about the hymns or themselves and not the congregation. Even if this isn't true (which it usually isn't), the fact that the many clergy believe this only proves that the cantor deacons have not facilitated the priest's job and therefore have not fulfilled their duties. "
I think you are over generalizing. Not all priests are like this at all. In fact, many insist on following the rites simply because they are the rites. It is something that was given to us, not so that we can change or alter, but so that we may have a system and unity. I also want to point out that you are basing this on a hunch and not actual fact. Nevertheless, we have rites to keep us organized/unified and without them, we are then subject to a chaotic type of service where anyone could say whatever they wanted regardless of the occasion. This can be harmful to the church.
You said: "Sometimes the only solution is to put aside long hymns and rites so more people can participate in the liturgy without offense. "
Perhaps the participation is not because of long hymns but because of ignorance. This ignorance can be from not understanding the service (the rite), the hymns, or the tradition. Maybe there is no one to teach them hymns. Maybe they do not know what is going on in the Liturgy. Maybe they need direction. Maybe they do not want to even bother. I am not sure you are aware of my opinion because you seem to be implying that I am in favor of chanting all the long hymns in the church every sunday, when that is not the case at all. I said there should be balance. I do not think that chanting a long hymn during one major Lordly feast is an issue, considering all the points I previously mentioned in an earlier post. I mentioned also that there needs to be wisdom! You seem to imply that a long hymn is unacceptable in any circumstance. If that would be the case, then pascha would be so much shorter! But if you think about it, people love pascha week! What if people just decided not to say things like "O monogenees" or "Fai etafenf?" That would be a great shame.
You said: "Again, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think God will judge us for not saying ALL the hymns in the Kiahk Distribution rite. But I think He will judge us if one person decided to stop coming to Church because that person felt the liturgy was unnecessarily elongated with hymns during the Kiahk distribution. Now I also think God will be fair and maybe the fault is in that person. But if we put the rites over the people than the fault is in us deacons."
I never said we should say all the hymns in the distribution rite. All I said was that we should not change the rite and create our own. I think there would be bigger issues concerning an individual who decided to leave the church just because of the hymns.
You said: "Personally, I think there is a lot of wisdom in saying the Lord's prayer in Coptic during a Coptic liturgy in a Coptic Church. Notice the recurring theme is Coptic and language is an integral part of identity. But let's agree to disagree."
You are forgetting one key variable in that equation. No one speaks Coptic anymore (except maybe you, ophadece, and a handful of individuals). I think that there is more to our identity than language (i.e. our faith). I am a Christian first and foremost above all else. I am also really confused by your point because before, you said that it would not be a good idea to pray it in Coptic in order for the people to participate; however, now you are saying that praying it in Coptic is wise. How could it be wise if the goal is to have the people participate?
You said: "I am only reiterating what priests have told me. They are many priests who constantly get complaints during confessions about the length of service and the inability to pray or be engage during long services."
I do not think one hymn would be the reason why people complain (usually its several long hymns). I do not agree that there ought to be many long hymns in the service. Again, the deacons must exercise wisdom and discern when would be the appropriate time/occasion if they were to say a hymn that was long and plan accordingly.
I agree that we should be concerned with allowing them to participate but there is only so much we can do. One long hymn will not send them running to the door if it is done with wisdom. I am reminded of a time when my uncle was explaining the hymn Pekethronos on Good friday and told the congregation the significance and beauty behind the hymn, which made it easier for them to see and contemplate on it, while also enjoying its tune.
For some comedy, I'd like to add what my church does year round (Easter, Christmas, Annual etc.)
After Psalm 150, we have a wonderful array of:
+ O Pilgrim
+ How Lovely
+O tell me John
+ My Coptic Church
+ The battle belongs to the Lord
+You are my hiding place
+ Shine Jesus Shine....
Pi-oik eh bas? One time, a friend and I decided to sing "Kata Nikhoros" during Sunday in the 50 days, and Abouna turned at us (with the angriest face physically possible) and screamed "Only songs. I don't want hymns!!!!!!!!"
Anyways, thought I'd add some comedy for the fun of it.
Ray
musiba!
this really proves my point that some of the coptic songs are not easy to learn for people to join in and know they belong in the church.
to avoid this disaster, we need to sing good orthodox songs in the language of the country we are in,
in tunes that can be more easily followed.
it's easy to loose concentration after Holy Communion, yet it's the most sacred time of the service, so singing praise to God is a great way to keep people's attention on where they are and what they are doing.
pi oik is great, but i'm only just learning the tune halfway now after being for 6 months in a church which sings it every liturgy, i can only imagine how impenetrable the tunes are for outsiders.
(psalm 150 is easy enough to learn)
Pi-oik eh bas? One time, a friend and I decided to sing "Kata Nikhoros" during Sunday in the 50 days, and Abouna turned at us (with the angriest face physically possible) and screamed "Only songs. I don't want hymns!!!!!!!!"
And the excuse of "Oh the congregation does not know long hymns" will lead to the end of hymns, end of coptic and we will become the American Orthodox Church, aka Egyptian Protestants. This angers me.
'only the longest possible hymns with a very difficult tune in a foreign language'
and
'easy to sing tunes with heretical lyrics'.
middle ground is not so hard!
:o
try
'a few long hymns (half in english), plus a few easy orthodox songs with very good lyrics such as "night of the last supper" '
don't get me wrong, i sing 'tai shori' very loudly (i didn't say very well!)
;)
and i love the coptic language, and my favourite song out of all songs in any language is 'thoak ta te gom' (yours is the power, glory and majesty). i just can't wait for Holy week each year to sing it.
but i also know plenty of converts, enquirers and native coptic people who are just asking to worship God in an orthodox Christian way with the use of their minds and not just their voices.
surely the upsurge (seems mainly in north america) in protestant songs is because we have FAILED to
give the people good ORTHODOX songs to sing that they can relate to.
again, i am not saying 'take the tune of "my guy" and superimpose some orthodox lyrics on a catchy, popular tune. i am saying 'take some established church tune (or write a new one with the help of the priests and bishop) and use some good orthodox words with it.
there are ALREADY songs / hymns we can sing for Holy Communion which are allowed and which have been translated well, so PLEASE let us sing them.
may God guide us
In regards to this discussion,
People should learn these long hymns. "The congregation doesn't know the hymns" should not be an excuse to sing madayeh that aren't for communion but rather a reason to teach it to the congregation. I visited St Mark's Church in Raleigh,NC and every Sunday, Abouna Arsanious would be teaching the congregation hymns. The week I was there, he was teaching the 4th hoos in coptic. That is amazing. The congregation's lack of knowledge should not be an excuse to lose our hymns. Even if they don't know the hazzats, the english words are usually on the screen and they can meditate instead of talking in the communion line about what they are making for breakfast.
All the reasons given to promote singing and learning long hymns apply to having a reading comprehension of the language (notice I didn't say a basic reading level only. I said reading comprehension - able to understand and form sentences). There have been many classes given in many churches to teach Coptic properly. I myself have done it many times. With rare exception, everyone is only interested in reading Coptic letters only, not learning the language.
When it comes to hymns, with rare exception, people generally are only interested in certain hymns in Coptic (which are fast and popular), and certain Coptic hymns only in their common language (ie, English or Arabic, or whatever), and never any melismatic hymns. Maybe it's just a hunch. Maybe it's just my observations. But I think it's more than my opinion. It is fact because I've seen many priests rebuke deacons for saying melismatic hymns (and as RO said, even suggesting it gets a reproach).
Again, we will not loose our identity. We will not loose our long hymns. We will not loose our Orthodoxy if we don't sing melismatic (or any) hymns in favor of facilitating the congregation's liturgical experience.
The main thing is to be honest and find that middle ground, even if it is not the solution we want or consider a middle ground.
oujai
Those who advocate the removal of these hymns from the services of the Church sadden me, and are doing far more harm than good. You have only to look at some of our sister churches to see the detrimental effects that stem from the gradual loss of their liturgical language.
Some Coptic hymns are long, yes. Some Coptic hymns are difficult to learn, yes. Some Coptic hymns are so obscure they are rarely said, yes.
But all Coptic hymns are deeply spiritual. Their sacred music, their text from the Holy Bible and the Fathers are truly Orthodox, and present to us the correct way of lifting our hearts in prayer before God.
A person doesn't have to know Coptic to understand the meaning of the words being prayed - there are translations for virtually all hymns. It is prayer to merely close one's eyes, to meditate on the words being prayed in the hymn and to lift one's mind and heart to God.
Coptic hymns are a thing to be encouraged, a thing to be preserved, a thing to be revitalised. And I pray that the Coptic Church will always pray in Coptic and retain it's priceless treasure of Coptic Hymns until the end of the age.
oujai
i'm sorry if i came across harsh, ophadece, i admire very much your efforts at keeping coptic culture and Christian faith alive. it's precisely because i know that the beauty of the orthodox church is hidden from so many people that i am making a big effort to help them to see it. i get passionate about it sometimes, and even use capitals. i am not in the church to wipe out the coptic culture.
i can read coptic, and i understand some of it.
i have to keep working on my coptic, or my Godfather will be disappointed!
jg knows who he is, and he will also tell me off if i don't keep it up!
copticuser20, if your church's 'english liturgy' is half or less than half of the time, you still have plenty of time to sing in coptic.
i think we should make sure we don't loose our heritage, eg. doing tasbeha.
i love tasbeha very much, and i know a few hymns in coptic, not just in english.
(thanks to this website)
:-*
but we should also pray with our minds, and our minds are not so bright, so we should sometimes sing in our own language as well.
of course you know how much I respect you.. I seriously wasn't talking about you or that you were advocating anything.. I'm just very disappointed and fuming from church authorities all over the world now who discourage use of coptic.. how is this happening? I don't understand..
this wrong teaching gave converts the false idea that Christian songs are OK to sing during liturgy.. THAT'S WRONG WITH A DEEP DEEP PASSION, and it's spreading, and it happens in my own church.. I leave them when they do that.. well most of the time, but I myself need to learn to be more honest and meticulous in spreading the teachings of my forefathers
I never felt this before this strongly, sstrongly yes but not that much.. my own father died last year, and a man who taught me values and principles within the Egyptian culture, I'm by no means ever going to change or give that up for a dime.. I live in a multicultural society and they do respect me this way.. that's why I'd be upset of Fr. Peter's or whoever else's suggestions that I shouldn't live like this or teach this to my kids.. my father was my father, and I am not listening to whatever other pieces of ill advice there may be.. not talking about Fr. Peter now of course; I mean the global mindset of having 7990 cultures too many (or languages as a subset of such)
I DO NOT CONSIDER THE COPTIC CHURCH MULTICULTURAL FULL STOP.
oujai
oujai
EDIT: correction to the name of the previous poster
BTW forgot to say my next to last post was directed a great deal at what Copticproud said too
oujai
Wait, me? Why lol All what I asked was a question out of ignorance. The fact that it is included in many of the arabic books, and that the words are all about the communion made me think that it was ok to sing. Sorry, if my ignorance offended you...
oujai
Oujai qen `P[C
there is no shortage of such in Kiahk.
Actually in my church last week, we sang Psalm 150 in the long tune, long Je Fesmaraoot, Efemepsha ghar, the weekly tamged, and Abouna was just about to start to commune the blood to the ladies (We have one priest). We asked Abouna what to sing next and he said sing the "The Burning Bush" since we donot get to sing it in Tasbehat Kiahk. Even after that we had some time left so we sang part of "Amen Alleluia."
On another note, what do you guys think of this https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/281631_228916740486386_3971170_n.jpg? For people who do not read Arabic, this is the from the Holy Synod's meeting of 05/26/2007. It says, "In the month of Kiahk, the refrain for psalm 150 is "The Begotten of the Father before all ages, came and took flesh from the Virgin." In Coptic, Pimici evol khen efiout khagaoi neoowon tero."