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Interested in Oriental Orthodoxy (particularly Coptic)
I am a 27 year old New Zealander who is currently an inquirer in the Antiochian Orthodox Church (I was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church). However, I have recently become interested in Oriental Orthodoxy and am wondering if the OO Church could possibly be the true Church. I have attended the local Coptic church a few times and I attended a service at a Malankara Syrian Orthodox church in Kuala Lumpur. I have a few questions.
1. How different in the OO Christology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church? I know the OO are not Monophysites but is OO theology compatible with the duophysitism of the EOC?
2. Would a person who has been baptized Roman Catholic be received into the Coptic Church through baptism or Chrismation?
3. What are the OO views on divorce and remarriage? I married my ex-wife in a non-Christian ceremony - we are now separated and I will begin civil divorce proceedings at the end of this month. Will I be permitted to remarry in the Coptic Church or any other OO Church?
4. What is the OO view on evolution? I am a creationist and I read somewhere that the Coptic Church is opposed to evolution.
Thanks in advance.
1. How different in the OO Christology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church? I know the OO are not Monophysites but is OO theology compatible with the duophysitism of the EOC?
2. Would a person who has been baptized Roman Catholic be received into the Coptic Church through baptism or Chrismation?
3. What are the OO views on divorce and remarriage? I married my ex-wife in a non-Christian ceremony - we are now separated and I will begin civil divorce proceedings at the end of this month. Will I be permitted to remarry in the Coptic Church or any other OO Church?
4. What is the OO view on evolution? I am a creationist and I read somewhere that the Coptic Church is opposed to evolution.
Thanks in advance.
Comments
[quote author=MichaelNZ link=topic=13837.msg160937#msg160937 date=1352114767]
1. How different in the OO Christology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church? I know the OO are not Monophysites but is OO theology compatible with the duophysitism of the EOC?
Yes, the EO duophysitism is compatible with OO miaphysitism if both are understood correctly. This was the outcome of 30 years of joint discussions with both families. The conclusion was we are both saying the same thing in different ways. The problem occurs when one side claims the other is defining their opponent's theology wrong and they see no way to reconcile the two. This is a very big topic and we can discuss in detail if you want. You'll need to ask one of the Coptic bishops or clergy. I believe baptism is required but it doesn't matter what I or anyone else says here. We are only lay people. The decision comes from the clergy. Again you will have to ask a bishop or priest. Getting a civil divorce does not automatically entitle you to a Coptic or OO wedding. Again the final decision comes from the clergy. The Coptic Church is really somewhere in the middle of the two. We are opposed to macro evolution, where one species evolves into another but we are not opposed to genetic mutations within a species. We are also opposed to believing God created the world in six 24 hour days. We are opposed to any theory that dismiss God as the source and champions a random cause as the source. You're welcome. Please keep asking your questions and may God guide you to a home that you will find eternal joy and eternal salvation.
God bless.
Where are you in New Zealand Michael? I know the priests in Dinedin, Christchurch and Wellington.
God bless.
I am in Dunedin. I have met Abouna Felimoun several times.
He did our liturgy on Sunday replacing our Abouna Sourial. I think you will be christimated, I'm sure, so you will have to talk it over with them. Our Bishop Sourial is in Melbourne.
So if we are both saying the same thing in different ways, then what is preventing a reunion of the EO and OO churches? That is good to hear. From a discussion on another forum, a poster there said that most Orthodox on the board believe in evolution.
Macro evolution is not scientific. It has never been observed, tested and demonstrated. It is purely a religious teaching. Kent Hovind exposes it in his Creation Seminars.
So does the Coptic Church believe that Adam and Eve were real people, as the Roman Catholic Church requires its adherents to believe? Why are you opposed to believing in a literal 6 day creation? It seems that the Holy Scriptures make it clear that the days are 24 hour days. The mention of "evening" and "morning" seem to indicate that they're literal 24 hour days. Can you please provide some quotes from the Fathers for this? I've been listening to Abouna Suriel's podcasts. I think it was him that I met in 2007 (it was definitely a Coptic bishop).
[quote author=Origen of Alexandria]What intelligent person can imagine that there was a first “day,” then a second and a third “day”—evening and morning—without the sun, the moon, and the stars? [Sun, moon, and stars are created on the fourth "day."] And that the first “day”—if it makes sense to call it such—existed even without a sky? [The sky is created on the second "day."]
Who is foolish enough to believe that, like a human gardener, God planted a garden in Eden in the East and placed in it a tree of life, visible and physical, so that by biting into its fruit one would obtain life? And that by eating from another tree, one would come to know good and evil? And when it is said that God walked in the garden in the evening and that Adam hid himself behind a tree, I cannot imagine that anyone will doubt that these details point symbolically to spiritual meanings, by using an historical narrative which did not literally happen.
Now there may not necessarily be a reason to accept all of Origens works, but there is certainly no need to place all his thoughts under doubt, especially when he was one of the most revered scholars. Origen calls for a different interpretation of Genesis. Augustine (again not an Orthodox father, but certainly influential in Christian apologetic) says the following:
[quote author=Augustine of Hippo]In matters that are so obscure and far beyond our vision, we find in Holy Scripture passages which can be interpreted in very different ways without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such cases, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search of truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. That would be to battle not for the teaching of Holy Scripture but for our own, wishing its teaching to conform to ours, whereas we ought to wish ours to conform to that of Sacred Scripture.
What Augustine herein calls for is an assessment of our position, and asks that we do not rush quickly into any scientific theory that is not necessary for a true belief in God, lest science prove our misunderstanding wrong, and our faith is considered foolish, simply because our understanding of the faith was unscientific. Augustine's reason is made clearer when he says:
[quote author=Augustine of Hippo] Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]
So I don't think it would be fair to say that the Orthodox church accepts or doesn't accept any theory (creationism or evolution), but rather that it sees them all as possible worldviews that, so far as they do not contradict the deeper meaning of scripture, need not be scorned. The wonderful thing about Orthodoxy is that, unlike most other denominations, we seldom take a stance. Our stance is a worship of Christ as revealed by Scripture, Tradition and Liturgy. Outside this, science is the study of the work of God. Unlike other faiths, such as Islam, scientific study can be an offense to the faith because it produces "delusions" which contradict the word of God, Christianity sees nature itself as the word of God, and science therefor is the study of the work of God.
I hope that made the question regarding the literal 6 day theory a bit more evident. I'm not interested in a debate, but if anyone disagrees, I am more than happy to consider other opinions, or to clarify my point if needed.
I am a fool,
RO
I am a 27 year old New Zealander who is currently an inquirer in the Antiochian Orthodox Church (I was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church). However, I have recently become interested in Oriental Orthodoxy and am wondering if the OO Church could possibly be the true Church. I have attended the local Coptic church a few times and I attended a service at a Malankara Syrian Orthodox church in Kuala Lumpur. I have a few questions.
2. Would a person who has been baptized Roman Catholic be received into the Coptic Church through baptism or Chrismation?
I have discussed my experiences, from my background which are similar to yours, on similar earlier Tasbeha. org discussions. As I have stated earlier, I strongly recommend that if you decide to become Coptic Orthodox, that you insist on complete Holy Orthodox initiation, which includes Holy Coptic Orthodox Baptism and Holy Coptic Chrismation with Holy Coptic Myron. Many compromising "coptic" ecumenists, possibly including some lax bishops and priests, seemingly criticize and ridicule these traditional Orthodox sacraments and sacramentals, but I can assure you that you will never regret receiving the full traditional Orthodox initiation that is still available in the Coptic Orthodox Church (probably also available in most other OO jurisdictions). I received the much abbreviated evangelical Antiochian anointing before I was given an introduction to and interest in the (now also modernism/ecumenism challenged) Coptic Church.
3. What are the OO views on divorce and remarriage? I married my ex-wife in a non-Christian ceremony - we are now separated and I will begin civil divorce proceedings at the end of this month. Will I be permitted to remarry in the Coptic Church or any other OO Church?
I have also shared my divorce related experiences on earlier Tasbeha.org discussions. I think that I have pretty much covered my experiences, in considerable detail, as they relate to your question, in this discussion. http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,13379.15.html.
4. What is the OO view on evolution? I am a creationist and I read somewhere that the Coptic Church is opposed to evolution.
Like all modern christian communities, we have many outspoken members who have devoted very much time and effort in becoming indoctrinated, confused and self-impressed with varying faith in worldly higher education's objectives, theories and philosophies. Sadly, they usually show that they have not received the same level and depth of knowledge and faith in the incomprehensible nature, powers and revelations of our God.
Thanks in advance.
God bless your struggle. Please study and struggle with St. Peter's instructions to Christian wives on the duty to stay married, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in every possible circumstance. If possible, don't risk that your prayers will be hindered (how long?). See, 1Peter 3:1-7. These are the long proven (recently ignored) words of Jesus Christ's number one (chief) shepherd. If you have children, don't traumatize their entire life without an early (or later) life close to their father. Pray for me.