Greek Parts Used in the Coptic Church - Fr. Abdel-Masseh El-Masodi - 1899

minatasgeel

Greek Parts Used in the Coptic Church - Fr. Abdel-Masseh El-Mas’odi - 1899: http://www.mediafire.com/?gkfob3zaknwhz01
A book was published with all the greek parts that are used in our Coptic Church....those include hymns like Ke eperto, ton sina, tolitho, eparthenos. So Abouna speaks a little more about how the jinkum is used in the coptic text published in the book. He said, in this specific version, the jinkum is used to to identify which part of the word to be elongated to fit the proper pronunciation. two examples he uses:
- word `pneuma, he writes it as pne`uma to force the reader to pronounce it like "pneeev-ma" and not like 'pnev-maaa"
- `mnyc;yti, he writes it to be mn`yc;yt`i to then pronounce it as "mnees-ti-tiii"

I wanted to know, what do you guys think about this.

P.S. Please DO NOT turn this into an arguemnt about OB and Bohairic coptic (or even GB). I specifically want opinions from people that don't mind GB as a way of pronunciation if you don't agree with it at all, please don't even respond.

Amoussa01

is it in english? can i access it in english?

imikhail

The jinkim existed long before these hymns entered the Coptic church. The jinkim is to stress the letter that has it.

So, the example you cited is a good illustration of how the jinkim is used.

minatasgeel

[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13664.msg159343#msg159343 date=1346127221]
The jinkim existed long before these hymns entered the Coptic church. The jinkim is to stress the letter that has it.

So, the example you cited is a good illustration of how the jinkim is used.

but it is not used in the same way in the document. read the book imikhail and you'll why did abouna make that distinction.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=13664.msg159340#msg159340 date=1346119091]
is it in english? can i access it in english?


tony, i thought about translating it but the arabic sometimes is very hard for me to understand, due to how old it is, therefore i couldn't translate it.

Remnkemi

I tried to understand the Arabic and I don't fully understand what he is trying to say. But from his examples, it is clear to me that Fr Abdelmesseh advocates a slight change in the grammatical usage of the jenkim. He wants it to demarcate pronunciation stress as it is in Greek and not in Coptic. In other words, in Coptic the jenkim demarcates the stressed syllable. This is what Greek diactrics is meant to do. However, they are different syllables that acquire the stress. In Coptic there are more rules for pronunciation stress that are not found in Greek. Fr Abdelmesseh advocates ignoring the other Coptic pronunciation stress markers and use Greek pronunciation in Greek words, demarcated exclusively by the jenkim in a different position. It neither follows purely Greek or purely Coptic pronunciation.

I'd like to add that prior to the 17th century, the jenkim (as well as any punctuation) was hardly used. It was a later development. I'd also like to point out that the jenkim is not only used for stress. It is also used to (1) demarcate syllables, especially between consonants and (2) epenthesis - the addition of sounds to break up consonant clusters. For example, `pneuma in GB can be either /EP nev ma/ or /ep nev MA/. In OB it can be /EB neu ma/ or /BA neu MA/. But if you take out the jenkim (like Greek has it), it would become /NEU ma/. Just like pneumonia is pronounced /neu MO ni a/. In Coptic, if you take out the jenkim, you can theoretically add /neu MA/ in GB. So the jenkim makes `pneuma (1) three syllables instead of two, (2) adds the "e" sound for epenthesis, breaking up the p and n consonant cluster and (3) stress the first syllable. Other pronunciation rules (ie., non-jenkim rules) in Coptic allow for stress of the ultimate syllable. 

For the record, I don't think Fr Abdelmesseh's suggestion is inherently wrong. Other languages have done this. This rule just didn't stick for Greek loan words in Coptic like Fr Abdelmesseh advocated. Greek pronunciation in Coptic has recently been advocated again but it lost favor again.

If you can offer any sort of English translation, it would be helpful.

ophadece

To me this sounds like an attempt to manipulate a language at whim.. it's apparently in late 19th century so who really cared? Anyone could do anything with coptic language as long as they have good reasons.. seriously, it isn't a spoken language anyway, do what you like
oujai
ps: why don't we make up some rules to apply the same to English songs lyrics?
oujai

Remnkemi

Mina asked us not to turn this into a debate over GB vs. OB. I will respect his wishes. I tried to be as unbiased as I could. I hope everyone can do the same. Discuss facts without any judgments.

PS: Rules are already made up and applied to English song lyrics. One example is Rap. I don't really need to give you examples. Another example is classical 50's music with made up words and made up rules. Look at the Beach Boys song "Barbara Ann"]=http://www.lyrics.com/barbara-ann-lyrics-the-beach-boys.html]Beach Boys song "Barbara Ann". We all know that the word "Ba" is not a real word. We know what "rockin' and a-rollin' is another made up word (actually a made up phrase) with made up grammar for the song. 

imikhail

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13664.msg159363#msg159363 date=1346185580]
Mina asked us not to turn this into a debate over GB vs. OB. I will respect his wishes. I tried to be as unbiased as I could. I hope everyone can do the same. Discuss facts without any judgments.

PS: Rules are already made up and applied to English song lyrics. One example is Rap. I don't really need to give you examples. Another example is classical 50's music with made up words and made up rules. Look at the Beach Boys song "Barbara Ann"]=http://www.lyrics.com/barbara-ann-lyrics-the-beach-boys.html]Beach Boys song "Barbara Ann". We all know that the word "Ba" is not a real word. We know what "rockin' and a-rollin' is another made up word (actually a made up phrase) with made up grammar for the song.


These examples do not equate to changing the value of the sound "b" to "v", "t" to "th" to "d" to "t", ...

minatasgeel

[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13664.msg159364#msg159364 date=1346186929]
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13664.msg159363#msg159363 date=1346185580]
Mina asked us not to turn this into a debate over GB vs. OB. I will respect his wishes. I tried to be as unbiased as I could. I hope everyone can do the same. Discuss facts without any judgments.

PS: Rules are already made up and applied to English song lyrics. One example is Rap. I don't really need to give you examples. Another example is classical 50's music with made up words and made up rules. Look at the Beach Boys song "Barbara Ann"]=http://www.lyrics.com/barbara-ann-lyrics-the-beach-boys.html]Beach Boys song "Barbara Ann". We all know that the word "Ba" is not a real word. We know what "rockin' and a-rollin' is another made up word (actually a made up phrase) with made up grammar for the song.


These examples do not equate to changing the value of the sound "b" to "v", "t" to "th" to "d" to "t", ...

Please don't fire up things........

ophadece

Dear remenkimi,
I wasn't looking for made up grammar in colloquial English, as does happen in most if not all languages of the world.. I was rather looking for using legitimate articles to modify certain words pronunciation.. I don't think you understood my original question, did you?
oujai

Remnkemi

Ophadece, I can respond and give you what you're looking for but Mina specifically said not to. In fact, he specifically said, " Please DO NOT turn this into an arguemnt about OB and Bohairic coptic (or even GB). I specifically want opinions from people that don't mind GB as a way of pronunciation. if you don't agree with it at all, please don't even respond."

It's actually my fault for bringing up the song lyrics. I apologize. I will only answer and respond to questions about Fr Abdelmesseh's book.

Amoussa01

Rem,

What do you mean it's not purely Greek when you remove the jenkim? In the Greek language there are none. So why would it not follow the Greek rules (I'm assuming if the entire text is Greek like "agios" for example)

Remnkemi

I mean purely Greek pronunciation and linguistics require diactrics (pronunciation stress). If you take out the jenkim, it would cause problems because Copts do not pronounce Greek words like the Greeks do. If you take out the jenkim, a Greek would not know how to read it unless they were familiar with the text. Greek requires diatrics and declension. It is almost inappropriate to write in Greek, especially Koine Greek, without proper diactrics because different types of diactrics (symbols that denote stress) will change the meaning of a word.

imikhail

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13664.msg159440#msg159440 date=1346268372]
I mean purely Greek pronunciation and linguistics require diactrics (pronunciation stress). If you take out the jenkim, it would cause problems because Copts do not pronounce Greek words like the Greeks do. If you take out the jenkim, a Greek would not know how to read it unless they were familiar with the text. Greek requires diatrics and declension. It is almost inappropriate to write in Greek, especially Koine Greek, without proper diactrics because different types of diactrics (symbols that denote stress) will change the meaning of a word.


The jinkim was used for both Coptic and Greek words even before the mutilation of the language by Aryan Afandy approx 150 years ago

ophadece

Dear remenkimi,
I didn't intend to turn the thread to OB vs GB. You keep misunderstanding my posts, and the only reason I can think of is our past debates and my clear position about such a matter.. here, however, I was only referring to the weakness of the language as a whole and not necessarily introduction of a flawed pronunciation system.. I'm glad though that it becomes clear how connected all such things are
oujai

minatasgeel

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13664.msg159440#msg159440 date=1346268372]
I mean purely Greek pronunciation and linguistics require diactrics (pronunciation stress). If you take out the jenkim, it would cause problems because Copts do not pronounce Greek words like the Greeks do. If you take out the jenkim, a Greek would not know how to read it unless they were familiar with the text. Greek requires diatrics and declension. It is almost inappropriate to write in Greek, especially Koine Greek, without proper diactrics because different types of diactrics (symbols that denote stress) will change the meaning of a word.

and those diactrics are not the same as the jinkum in coptic?

Remnkemi

Greek diatrics are very different than Coptic jinkim. Take for example 'u,y

In Greek, ψύχη is the neutral plural noun while ψυχή is the feminine singular noun. Fr Abdelmesseh assumes one and only pronunciation in Greek and he wants to move the Coptic jinkim to follow Greek pronunciation, not realizing (or choosing to ignore) the fact that moving the jinkim may mean more to a Greek audience than a Coptic audience.

imikhail

[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13664.msg159460#msg159460 date=1346277779]
Greek diatrics are very different than Coptic jinkim. Take for example 'u,y

In Greek, ψύχη is the neutral plural noun while ψυχή is the feminine singular noun. Fr Abdelmesseh assumes one and only pronunciation in Greek and he wants to move the Coptic jinkim to follow Greek pronunciation, not realizing (or choosing to ignore) the fact that moving the jinkim may mean more to a Greek audience than a Coptic audience.


This is the fallacy that this generation fell into: Pronouncing Coptic like Greek.