I would just like to create this thread as a database, gathering different quotes from the various Church Fathers concerning early Christian beliefs about things pertaining to doctrine (I.e. the Holy Trinity, Soteriology, the Eucharist, etc.). Try to keep any actual discussion to a minimum. In this post I will be providing a source from the Fathers pertaining to the Persons of the Trinity. Please try to keep the thread organized. Bold the title of your post (the title should be what doctrine you are trying to discuss, in my case, the Trinity) provide the relevant Patristic quote(s) or webpage(s) and then cite a source. And try to indicate what year or century the quote is from.
The TrinityHere's a great webpage with a lot of early Trinitarian quotes:
http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm+Pray for me
Comments
+"We do not consume the Eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving."
-Saint Justin Martyr, First Apology, 155-157 A.D.
+"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God."
-Origen, The Fundamental Doctrines, 225 A.D.
+"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man."
-(Saint?) Tatian the Syrian, Address to the Greeks; Chapter 21, 170 A.D.
+"The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born."
-Tertullian, The Flesh of Christ Chapter 5:6–7, A.D. 210
+"So he became sin to remit the sins of others: so also he paid the debt that was incurred for us, and we ourselves became righteousness in him; for those who have been freed from debts are righteous, and |203 are not termed liable. And, because during the time of his Humanization he did no sin, therefore also iniquity was not found in him, but he showed himself righteous, that is, he is righteousness; and, when he became flesh, all our nature again was justified in him as in firstfruits; and this is what the wise Paul said to the Corinthians about the Father, «He made him sin for our sake, who knew no sin, that we might be the righteousness of God in him»"
-Saint Severus of Antioch, Letter 65, 6th Century
+"The Divine Scripture says that Christ hath been made the High Priest and Apostle of our confession [Heb. 3:1] and He hath offered Himself for us for an odour of a sweet smell to God the Father. If any one therefore say that not the Very Word of God was made our High Priest and Apostle when He was made Flesh and man as we, but that man of a woman apart from himself as other than He, was [so made]: or if any one say that in His own behalf also He offered the Sacrifice and not rather for us alone (for He needed not offering Who knoweth not sin), be he anathema."
-Saint Cyril of Alexandria, 10th Anathema to Nestorius, 5th Century
+"For being over all, the Word of God naturally by offering His own temple and corporeal instrument for the life of all satisfied the debt by His death"
-Saint Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation, 4th Century
+“It is as if, at a session of a court of justice, the devil should be addressed as follows: ‘Granted that you destroyed all men because you found them guilty of sin; but why did you destroy Christ? Is it not very evident that you did so unjustly? Well then, through Him the whole world will be vindicated."
-Saint John Chrysostom, Commentary on St. John the Apostle and Evangelist; Homilies 48-88
+“God, Who is incomparably higher than the visible and invisible creation, accepted human nature, which is higher than the whole visible creation, and offered it as a sacrifice to His God and Father.... Honoring the sacrifice, the Father could not leave it in the hands of death. Therefore, He annihilated His sentence."
-(Saint) Symeon the New Theologian, The First-Created Man
"Some things in the Bible have no existence, but are spoken of; others which do exist are not spoken of" ~ St. Gregory Nazianzen
Do you mind providing a title for your post and the source of the quotation?
That Mary the Theotokos is a Perpetual Virgin
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_mary_ever-virgin.htm
A variety of quotes with dates and citations
+"Then, in the tenth place, work that which is good upon this foundation of dogma; for faith without works is dead, even as are works apart from faith."
-Saint Gregory of Nazianzus, Oration 40; On Holy Baptism, 381 A.D.
Some other Patristic quotes concerning the heresy of Sola Fide:
http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/catholictracts/tract44.html
+"What has Adam’s guilt to do with us? Why are we held responsible for his sin when we were not even born when he committed it? Did not God say : “The parents will not die for the children, nor the children for parents, but the soul which had sinned, it shall die.” How then shall we defend this doctrine? The soul, I say, which had sinned, it shall die. We have become sinners because of Adam’s disobedience in the following manner.... After he fell into sin and surrendered to corruption, impure lusts invaded the nature of his flesh, and at the same time the evil law of our members was born. For our nature contracted the disease of sin because of the disobedience of one man, that is Adam, and thus many became sinners. This was not because they sinned along with Adam, because they did not then exist, but because they had the same nature as Adam, which fell under the law of sin. Thus, just as human nature acquired the weakness of corruption in Adam because of disobedience, and evil desires invaded it, so the same nature was later set free by Christ, who was obedient to God the Father and did not commit sin."
-Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Explanation of the Letter to the Romans: Migne PG 74, col 788-89 in: Romans By Gerald Lewis Bray, Thomas C. Oden pp 142-143
+"The sin of those who engendered us, viz. the sin of Adam and Eve, is not naturally (kata phusin) mixed with our substance (ousia), as the evil and impious opinion of the Messalians, in other words the Manichees, claims, but because they (Adam and Eve) had lost the grace of immortality the judgment and the sentence reach down to us, when, following a natural disposition. We are born mortal insofar as [we are born] of mortal parents, but not sinners insofar as we are of sinful parents. For it is not true that sin is a nature (phusis) and that it naturally passes from parents to their children."
-Saint Severus of Antioch, Correspondence with Julian of Halicarnassus
That We Do Not Inherit Adam's Guilt
+"What has Adam’s guilt to do with us? Why are we held responsible for his sin when we were not even born when he committed it? Did not God say : “The parents will not die for the children, nor the children for parents, but the soul which had sinned, it shall die.” How then shall we defend this doctrine? The soul, I say, which had sinned, it shall die. We have become sinners because of Adam’s disobedience in the following manner.... After he fell into sin and surrendered to corruption, impure lusts invaded the nature of his flesh, and at the same time the evil law of our members was born. For our nature contracted the disease of sin because of the disobedience of one man, that is Adam, and thus many became sinners. This was not because they sinned along with Adam, because they did not then exist, but because they had the same nature as Adam, which fell under the law of sin. Thus, just as human nature acquired the weakness of corruption in Adam because of disobedience, and evil desires invaded it, so the same nature was later set free by Christ, who was obedient to God the Father and did not commit sin."
-Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Explanation of the Letter to the Romans: Migne PG 74, col 788-89 in: Romans By Gerald Lewis Bray, Thomas C. Oden pp 142-143
Actually this excerpt teaches that we inherent Adam's sin and guilt.
This verse only states that we inherit the effects of Adam's sin. But we are not sinners along with Adam. Adam sinned, and so his nature changed, and because he gave birth to me, I inherit this nature. But sin is not a change in nature. Adam became mortal, so I inherit mortality. Adam became inclined to sin, so I am inclined to sin. Adam sinned, but he did not pass that sin onto me.
"This was not because they sinned along with Adam, because they did not then exist, but because they had the same nature as Adam, which fell under the law of sin."
I did not sin with Adam, and God would be unjust to cause me to be guilty of the sin of someone who sinned before I even existed. But because Adam's nature fell under the law of sin, and I inherit this nature, I inherit the effects.
So this verse does not seem to be claiming that I inherit the sin, but rather, the exact opposite: That I do not inherit the sin, and the punishment of the sin is upon Adam, but I do inherit the natural effects of sin (mortality, inclination to evil etc.)
ReturnOrthodoxy
Wrong,
This verse only states that we inherit the effects of Adam's sin. But we are not sinners along with Adam. Adam sinned, and so his nature changed, and because he gave birth to me, I inherit this nature. But sin is not a change in nature. Adam became mortal, so I inherit mortality. Adam became inclined to sin, so I am inclined to sin. Adam sinned, but he did not pass that sin onto me.
"This was not because they sinned along with Adam, because they did not then exist, but because they had the same nature as Adam, which fell under the law of sin."
I did not sin with Adam, and God would be unjust to cause me to be guilty of the sin of someone who sinned before I even existed. But because Adam's nature fell under the law of sin, and I inherit this nature, I inherit the effects.
So this verse does not seem to be claiming that I inherit the sin, but rather, the exact opposite: That I do not inherit the sin, and the punishment of the sin is upon Adam, but I do inherit the natural effects of sin (mortality, inclination to evil etc.)
ReturnOrthodoxy
We became sinners on account of Adam's sin.
Prayers please,
ReturnOrthodoxy
No, we become mortals on a ccount of Adam's mortality. How can we interpret St. Severus of Antioch along with what you are saying?
Prayers please,
ReturnOrthodoxy
It depends on how you read it. St. Sawiros was refuting the idea that we are created evil by an evil creator as the Messalians believed. He is saying that we are evil because of how we fell under the law of sin because of the first parents' disobedience.
No where in that reference from St Severus are the words "creator" or "evil" mentioned. You are extrapolating a meaning that has nothing to do with the reference given. We are not born evil, nor is our nature evil, nor are we evil now because of someone else's sin. It is anti-patristic, anti-biblical and therefore anti-Orthodox to make such claims.
This is your interpretation the way you read the Fathers. This is what you want to believe.
Your belief contradicts the Fathers, the Scripture and the Liturgical prayers.
St Sawiros writes:
The reason for which we are said to have become heirs of the curse and of condemnation and of death is not that the sin and condemnation and death passed to us, as if these fell to our nature by lot, for man's nature was from the beginning free from all these things, but that the method by which intercourse takes place derived its origin from sin, as I have said, a method which cut away the blessing of immortality, so that the race of men is preserved from dissolution by the procreation of children. We therefore were in consequence born mortal from a mortal father. These things are defined both by the holy John in the Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, and by the holy Cyril in the letter to Succensus."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/severus_coll_3_letters.htm
This agrees to what I explained before regarding the other quote from St. Sawiros addressing the Messalians.
St. Sawiros is saying that we are not born sinners originally, but we are passed the sin through intercourse (DNA).
“Yes, ‘the soul that sinneth, the same shall die.' But we have become sinners through the disobedience of Adam in this way. Adam, you see, had been made for incorruption and life. Moreover, the life he led in the paradise of delight was suited to saints; his mind was ever absorbed by the vision of God; his body was perfectly at peace, all base lust at rest; for unbecoming emotions did not disturb him. But when he fell subject to sin and sank down to corruption, from that time forth impure lusts invaded the nature of the flesh and the law of sin blossomed which rages in our members. Human nature has, therefore, contracted the malady of sin through the disobedience of one man, Adam. It is in this way that the many have been made sinners - not as though they had transgressed with Adam (for they did not yet exit), but because they are of his nature, the nature that fell beneath the law of sin….Human nature grew ill with corruption in Adam because of the act of disobedience”
On the Gospel of St. John, Homily 56
Thus has the guilt of the disobedience that is by Adam been remitted: thus has the power of the curse ceased, and the dominion of death been brought to decay.And this too Paul teaches, saying, "For as by the disobedience of the one man, the many became sinners, so by the obedience of the One, the many became righteous." For the whole nature of man became guilty in the person of him who was first formed; but now it is wholly justified again in Christ.
St. Cyril. Sermon 42, on the Gospel of St. Luke
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/cyril_on_luke_04_sermons_39_46.htm
St. Sawiros is saying that we are not born sinners originally, but we are passed the sin through intercourse (DNA).
So we are NOT born with sin but we have immediately become sinners because of intercourse? Whose intercourse? Mine or my parents that automatically makes me a sinner? Are you claiming sin passes through DNA? Last I checked, we are born with DNA, therefore with your argument, we must have been born sinners. Your comment is inherently contradictory because you are claiming we are both born without sin and with sin, and we transmit sin through DNA.
And when God commanded Adam to multiply and be fruitful, he was in essence telling Adam to go sin and transmit sin. This automatically makes God a god who condones sin and creates a medium for sin transmission in DNA. How absurd!!
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13619.msg159333#msg159333 date=1346099298]
St. Sawiros is saying that we are not born sinners originally, but we are passed the sin through intercourse (DNA).
So we are NOT born with sin but we have immediately become sinners because of intercourse? Whose intercourse? Mine or my parents that automatically makes me a sinner? Are you claiming sin passes through DNA? Last I checked, we are born with DNA, therefore with your argument, we must have been born sinners. Your comment is inherently contradictory because you are claiming we are both born without sin and with sin, and we transmit sin through DNA.
And when God commanded Adam to multiply and be fruitful, he was in essence telling Adam to go sin and transmit sin. This automatically makes God a god who condones sin and creates a medium for sin transmission in DNA. How absurd!!
You are missing the point.
May be St Sawiros' quote is causing you some agony and is hard for you to absorb, let's try St Cyril:
"But when he fell subject to sin and sank down to corruption, from that time forth impure lusts invaded the nature of the flesh and the law of sin blossomed which rages in our members. Human nature has, therefore, contracted the malady of sin through the disobedience of one man, Adam. It is in this way that the many have been made sinners - not as though they had transgressed with Adam (for they did not yet exit), but because they are of his nature, the nature that fell beneath the law of sin….Human nature grew ill with corruption in Adam because of the act of disobedience”
Our nature got corrupted after the fall. This corruption passed down to you and me and everyone else.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13619.msg159336#msg159336 date=1346105805]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13619.msg159333#msg159333 date=1346099298]
St. Sawiros is saying that we are not born sinners originally, but we are passed the sin through intercourse (DNA).
So we are NOT born with sin but we have immediately become sinners because of intercourse? Whose intercourse? Mine or my parents that automatically makes me a sinner? Are you claiming sin passes through DNA? Last I checked, we are born with DNA, therefore with your argument, we must have been born sinners. Your comment is inherently contradictory because you are claiming we are both born without sin and with sin, and we transmit sin through DNA.
And when God commanded Adam to multiply and be fruitful, he was in essence telling Adam to go sin and transmit sin. This automatically makes God a god who condones sin and creates a medium for sin transmission in DNA. How absurd!!
You are missing the point.
May be St Sawiros' quote is causing you some agony and is hard for you to absorb, let's try St Cyril:
"But when he fell subject to sin and sank down to corruption, from that time forth impure lusts invaded the nature of the flesh and the law of sin blossomed which rages in our members. Human nature has, therefore, contracted the malady of sin through the disobedience of one man, Adam. It is in this way that the many have been made sinners - not as though they had transgressed with Adam (for they did not yet exit), but because they are of his nature, the nature that fell beneath the law of sin….Human nature grew ill with corruption in Adam because of the act of disobedience”
Our nature got corrupted after the fall. This corruption passed down to you and me and everyone else.
Yes. But this is *not* the same as saying we inherit Adam's guilt/fault.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13619.msg159339#msg159339 date=1346116304]
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13619.msg159336#msg159336 date=1346105805]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13619.msg159333#msg159333 date=1346099298]
St. Sawiros is saying that we are not born sinners originally, but we are passed the sin through intercourse (DNA).
So we are NOT born with sin but we have immediately become sinners because of intercourse? Whose intercourse? Mine or my parents that automatically makes me a sinner? Are you claiming sin passes through DNA? Last I checked, we are born with DNA, therefore with your argument, we must have been born sinners. Your comment is inherently contradictory because you are claiming we are both born without sin and with sin, and we transmit sin through DNA.
And when God commanded Adam to multiply and be fruitful, he was in essence telling Adam to go sin and transmit sin. This automatically makes God a god who condones sin and creates a medium for sin transmission in DNA. How absurd!!
You are missing the point.
May be St Sawiros' quote is causing you some agony and is hard for you to absorb, let's try St Cyril:
"But when he fell subject to sin and sank down to corruption, from that time forth impure lusts invaded the nature of the flesh and the law of sin blossomed which rages in our members. Human nature has, therefore, contracted the malady of sin through the disobedience of one man, Adam. It is in this way that the many have been made sinners - not as though they had transgressed with Adam (for they did not yet exit), but because they are of his nature, the nature that fell beneath the law of sin….Human nature grew ill with corruption in Adam because of the act of disobedience”
Our nature got corrupted after the fall. This corruption passed down to you and me and everyone else.
Yes. But this is *not* the same as saying we inherit Adam's guilt/fault.
Severian,
Can you please define what you mean by Adam's guilt, Adam's fault?
Adam sinned, and we inherit the effects of that sin, but not the sin itself. If my mom was sexually plural, and contracted HIV, then she had me, I may be born with this HIV, and so I must suffer the effects of it. But you cannot say that I have HIV because I sinned, or because I had plural sex. That was my mom, and it is her sin which she must answer for. It is the same with Adam and me. He sinned, and contracted mortality; therefore, I did not sin, but I inherit morality from him. I would have HIV because my mother had HIV, and similarly, I die because Adam died. But just as I am not a sinner because my mom sinned, I am not a sinner because Adam sinned.
I don't have HIV, and my mother is a pious woman lol.
ReturnOrthodoxy
Severian,
Can you please define what you mean by Adam's guilt, Adam's fault?
...
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13619.msg159345#msg159345 date=1346131119]
God will not judge me as having "eaten from the fruit." That was Adam not me.
Adam sinned, and we inherit the effects of that sin, but not the sin itself. If my mom was sexually plural, and contracted HIV, then she had me, I may be born with this HIV, and so I must suffer the effects of it. But you cannot say that I have HIV because I sinned, or because I had plural sex. That was my mom, and it is her sin which she must answer for. It is the same with Adam and me. He sinned, and contracted mortality; therefore, I did not sin, but I inherit morality from him. I would have HIV because my mother had HIV, and similarly, I die because Adam died. But just as I am not a sinner because my mom sinned, I am not a sinner because Adam sinned.
I don't have HIV, and my mother is a pious woman lol.
ReturnOrthodoxy
This.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13619.msg159342#msg159342 date=1346120869]
Severian,
Can you please define what you mean by Adam's guilt, Adam's fault?
...
[quote author=ReturnOrthodoxy link=topic=13619.msg159345#msg159345 date=1346131119]
God will not judge me as having "eaten from the fruit." That was Adam not me.
Adam sinned, and we inherit the effects of that sin, but not the sin itself. If my mom was sexually plural, and contracted HIV, then she had me, I may be born with this HIV, and so I must suffer the effects of it. But you cannot say that I have HIV because I sinned, or because I had plural sex. That was my mom, and it is her sin which she must answer for. It is the same with Adam and me. He sinned, and contracted mortality; therefore, I did not sin, but I inherit morality from him. I would have HIV because my mother had HIV, and similarly, I die because Adam died. But just as I am not a sinner because my mom sinned, I am not a sinner because Adam sinned.
I don't have HIV, and my mother is a pious woman lol.
ReturnOrthodoxy
This.
Whoever said that we will be judged of the actual Sin that Adam committed? None of the fathers said this.
We do inherit the corrupt sin and are born under the law of sin. Even if one lived without committing any sin, this person will still be condemned if he chose not to be washed from the original sin; the law of sin. Why? As the fathers explained:
"But when he fell subject to sin and sank down to corruption, from that time forth impure lusts invaded the nature of the flesh and the law of sin blossomed which rages in our members. Human nature has, therefore, contracted the malady of sin through the disobedience of one man, Adam. It is in this way that the many have been made sinners - not as though they had transgressed with Adam (for they did not yet exit), but because they are of his nature, the nature that fell beneath the law of sin….Human nature grew ill with corruption in Adam because of the act of disobedience”
Whoever said that we will be judged of the actual Sin that Adam committed? None of the fathers said this.
We do inherit the corrupt sin and are born under the law of sin. Even if one lived without committing any sin, this person will still be condemned if he chose not to be washed from the original sin; the law of sin. Why? As the fathers explained:
Again you are extrapolating a meaning above that is different from the reference of St Cyril below. St Cyril speaks of human nature (physis). You are speaking of hypostasis. You are saying a particular person or hypostasis will be condemned as having sinned because he his only "crime" was being clothed in the human physis. This is wrong. St Cyril says the corruption of the human physis came about because of one hypostasis sinning. But he is not saying all hypostases "have been made sinners" because they inherited Adam's sin. They only inherited the physis that "fell beneath the law of sin" and the general judgment of human physis (St Gregory calls it the "decree of death"), not the sin itself, nor the guilt of the sin, nor the personal judgment of sin.
Again you are extrapolating a meaning above that is different from the reference of St Cyril below. St Cyril speaks of human nature (physis). You are speaking of hypostasis.
It is you who are making this division. St Cyril speaks of the whole human person, here is the quote again:
"But when he fell subject to sin and sank down to corruption, from that time forth impure lusts invaded the nature of the flesh and the law of sin blossomed which rages in our members. Human nature has, therefore, contracted the malady of sin through the disobedience of one man, Adam. It is in this way that the many have been made sinners - not as though they had transgressed with Adam (for they did not yet exit), but because they are of his nature, the nature that fell beneath the law of sin….Human nature grew ill with corruption in Adam because of the act of disobedience”
St. Cyril is explaining how we were made sinners. It is through Adam's sin that the human nature became sinful and thus we are sinners.
He DID NOT say that it is only the nature that is sinful and not the person. In fact, he is saying that because the nature became sinful, we became sinful.
Your logic separates between the nature and the person as if they are two different entities in terms of salvation. Christ united with the human nature so that He may purify the person who became sinner because his nature became sinful on account of Adam's sin.
This the parallelism between the 1st Adam and the 2nd Adam, that St Paul wrote about:
"For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. " Romans 5:17-18
St Ambrose comments:
“In Adam I fell, in Adam I was cast out of paradise, in Adam I died. How shall God call me back, except He find me in Adam? For just as in Adam I am guilty of sin and owe a debt to death, so in Christ I am justified.” On the death of his brother Satyrus.