Our Coptic Identity Outside of Egypt

CARO

Hello everyone,
So, I have been struggling with an interesting term: Egyptian-American. That's what I call myself. But, what is that really?
Where is the balance between one or the other? Or, are we just a unique group, with our own unique experience as children of immigrants with very strong cultural and religious ties. How does this define us and who we are ?
Any help on this one would be truly appreciated. Thanks for scratching your brains with me.
CARO

"But by the Grace of God, I am What I am..."
1 CORINTHIANS 15:10

nardin

im sorry carro u c u gotta xcuse me coz im slow so can u plz explain it to me again
thanks u

u scratch your brain?? rather odd dont u think? nar jkz :)

GBU ALL
+FROG+

fadidanial

Hey Caro,

I think you ask an interesting question, but one that can never really be answered in a very general sense. Personally, I believe each and every person has their own cultural identity. For example, we can say that American or Canadian Copts have their own unique identity, different from that of Egyptian Copts. But, that's not always true is it? I've run into many Canadian Copts who were born in Canada, but who act like they're fresh off the boat from Tanta. Now these people have held on to their egyptian ties quite strongly. Conversly, when I go back to Egypt, I meet plently of Egyptians who are very westernized and whose lifestyles and opinions would put even the most liberal French Canadians to shame. These people don't really fit our traditional definition of "egyptian copt". Thus, I don't think we can make a general comment as to how much we immigrant copts have been assimilated into western culture because it varies so much from person to person and the traditional coptic culture in Egypt has also changed so much. I think each person creates their own balance between the two cultures, and even this changes with time for each individual person. Now that is not to say that generally there are commonalities between immigrants and children of immigrants, but the balance between Egyptian and American/Canadian really is up to the person.

CARO

Fadi,
thanks for taking the time to answer my question.
Do you think there are patterns to the way we assimilate according to our different surroundings? Maybe the fresh off the boat from Tanta crowd stayed so egyptian because they were in an environment that helped them retain strong cultural ties to egypt. Of course, it's an individual choice, but sometimes, there are very influential forces that shape our experience and what kind of "Copts" we 'decide' to to be.
I'm always interested in the question of how I would have turned out had I grown up in Egypt , or somewhere else for that matter (would I have been more religious, would my personality have been different?), but God willed my life in such way that "by the grace of God, I am what I am." Maybe, I'm answering my own question, but it is a concept worth thinking about. right?
thanks again :)

Copting

I think we are the first generation of immigrants have a unique blend that would be swallowed very soon. We keep our roots as copts, have thoughts as American, have some conflict between being American or Egyptian, but very clear about both views. When you go to Egypt, many youths now being americanized by the way of holywood, and think about us the same way. We are lucky to have clear view about ourselves. The question now, what will we do after this generation, are you gonna get married to Egyptian gentelman from Shoubra, or to one from next church here in US or to your colleague with the blonde hair. What will happen? Look to the second and third generations of the Italian or Greek. 99.9% are purely americanized except for their last names. Any thoughts for the coming generations or even for our generation?

Chris

Safaa

Our identity as Copts depends on the Coptic Church not Egypt, so outside Egypt we have U S A Copts, Canadian Copts, Britain Copts, French Copts, African, Asian....... and so on.
Egypt will be the Mother Country for all the Copts whether they are Egyptian or any other nationality.
The Pope is the Head of the Coptic Church in Egypt as well outside Egypt.

little phareo

I agree with ++++safaa++++ with the fact that coptic isn't a nationality it's a religion and belifes.. I been in america for 6 years i speak english more than arabic i think little different but my beleifes are still the same i still think that sex comes after marriage no matter how much i love her and so and so and so ....
so don't be scared to live in the world but don't let the world lives in you and when dificulties happenes you will know what to do it's in your blod as long as you come to the church and receive god's word..............
may god bless you all

fadidanial

Hey Caro,

I think you make a good point. It is very hard to pinpoint what causes the variety in "coptness" that you find in immigrants to west. I think the influence of environment varies from person to person, and it is practically impossible to have a set rule. If you take, for example, my family. I moved to Canada when I was 7 and I have 2 older brothers who came here at the ages of 13 and 15 respectively. You'd think that my eldest brother who came here at 15 would be the most "egyptian". In reality, this isn't the case. I'm way more "egyptian" than he is and he pulled a complete 180 after moving to Canada. To a certain degree we both have the same "environment" but one of us decided to stay egyptian while the other put in a conscious effort to become more canadian. I guess the point of this is that environment is a big influence, but each individual person reacts to the environment in a different way. Some people decide to hang on to their culture while others specifically seek out assimilation. In the end, I think the interactions between personality and environment are too complex to predict or really understand. It essentially comes back to what you said "by the grace of God, I am what I am." No matter the environment or our personality, it is God who has the biggest influence on our life, if we let him.

CARO

Fadi,
Good point. It's always interesting though, to search for why God has made as what we are, especially when witnessing the world around us and its attempts in undoing what is already in us. Do you know what I mean?
Why do you think people seek out assimilation?

Chris,
Interesting what you said about the whole second-generation business. You think that our situation as first-generation immigrants is unique to our own experience, right? You don't think we can pass that on to our children (no matter who we marry, Mr. Shobra, Mr. NOT-Shobra, or Mr. Blonde). Of course, it will be more difficult with Mr. Blonde, but equally difficult with Mr. Shobra whose confliciting ideas (because he hasn't had the experience of immigration) would also make life a bit more difficult than it already is?

Christi_03

Hey all...

What i'm going to say might be irrelevant... but here goes...

From what i know, the term 'Coptic' means 'Egyptain Christian'....
One wouldn't call a Muslim living in Egypt 'Coptic' because they aren't Christian, and likewise you wouldn't call an Indian who's Christian 'Coptic'...(unless they have converted to Coptic Orthodoxy)

Being Egyptain simply pertains to living the lifestyle of those in Egypt and following traditions (which could be very weird/funny if i might add ;)) ... and being Western, much of the same.

Being Coptic (whether one is Egyptain, Indian, Polish... etc) means being Orthodox Christian, following the teachings of the Apostoles and especially St. Mark when he came to Egypt to preach.
Being Coptic is abiding by the teachings of the Church Fathers under the guidance of H.H Pope Shenouda III. It means accepting Orthodoxy and its teachings with some Egyptain touches to it...
Mind you, Coptic Orthodoxy is different from other Orthodox Christains simply because it has some Egyptain traditions in it (like the 3imma [hat] that the priest wears... that's quite Egyptain, other Orthodox origins dont have that, they have a simpler, more fitting head cover)...

Being Egyptain-Canadian/American is almost irrelevant when comparing someone who is being Coptic (if that makes sense)... it is the idea of being Coptic that shapes one's beliefs, values, actions, etc - whether they are living in North America, Egypt, Japan, etc...

Although society will play a role in shaping one's identity, i believe it is/should be the idea of being Coptic that should ultimatly mould someone's identity....

So, someone can call themself Egyptain-American/Canadain, but i believe labelling oneself 'Coptic' will better reveal one's identity...

Well, i believe i've blabed on and made little to no sense here, but just my thoughts...

take care and God bless

joyisgod

Great points Crazycopt and I agree with everything you said.

Caro and Fadi, that hurts :'( lol what’s wrong with people that are fresh off the boat from tanta? I’m from tanta and I turned out perfectly normal, and by the way it’s the best city in the world. 8) Lol

Any ways just to add my two cents I really don’t think it matters where you’re from the most important thing is that you’re orthodox. I have lived in the U.S. for 13 years now and last summer when I went back to Egypt for the first time I experienced a culture shock because it was so different than what I have expected or even remembered.

It seemed to me that the people in Egypt were the ones that were trying to act more westernized than I was; even in the churches that I visited I noticed this. It was just so weird to me because whenever you do anything wrong your parents always remind you in Egypt the kids are perfect angels (well my parents do that) so it was strange when the people in Egypt were saying how me and my brother were really well behaved more then the Egyptian.

But my point is that it doesn’t matter if you have lived in Tanta, or America, or Canada, or even Europe. What matters is that we don’t abandon our faith or culture so the westerners can accept us. The norm is not necessarily the best route to follow because we as Coptic Orthodox are the light of this world and we should be the example not follow the crowd.

In his name