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A Statement
I do not mind when non-Orthodox people are here and ask questions or whatnot. What I truly dislike are people who come here that have no business. Why do we allow atheists and homosexuals on here when they have a clear agenda of destroying the church? There is no purpose for these people here and since they have no common sense and clearly lack maturity, why don't we start permanently banning these people?
Comments
It's just a matter of enforcement.
On the other hand, given Fr Peter is the enforcer, we should defer to his wisdom and tact in dealing with this.
I don't agree. For as much as i hate too much worthless arguments, it is good to see how others are thinking about specific things in our church. Also, i don't think you need to worry much Ioannes!!! we end up making them hate their life because we can't keep a decent debate at anytime.
It is fruitless.
I agree that it is not always possible to understand everything he says because he uses a jargon of his own, and his rather sweeping accusations naturally raise people's hackles.
To address his views directly, I would be interested in knowing the incidence of divorce in the Coptic Orthodox Church compared to other communities and compared to other periods in the 20th century.
My understanding is that irishpilgrim is a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
I agree that it is not always possible to understand everything he says because he uses a jargon of his own, and his rather sweeping accusations naturally raise people's hackles.
To address his views directly, I would be interested in knowing the incidence of divorce in the Coptic Orthodox Church compared to other communities and compared to other periods in the 20th century.
Thats exactly what I told him/her. You have to supply credible date, not just conjecture.
Above all, it is a cultural taboo to publicly speak about and count incidents of private matters. So you have no credible way to get demographics, not even self-reported incidents.
Regardless, I don't think we can justify excluding irishpilgrim's arguments, or anybody else's arguments, even if there is a destructive agenda. While the Scriptures tell us to rebuke harshly such behavior in the hope that these purpetrators may return to God (Psalm 68:30), it also tells us that pastoral care is essential. "A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out" Matthew 12:20. No matter how inconvenient it is for us to respond to such agendas or how fruitless we may think such arguments and such people are, we should not snuff them out. They may become vessels of God, like St Paul. Other on-lookers may read and receive grace. It also strengthens our faith when we spend the time to research and confront those who bring questions (1 Peter 3:15). So as you can see many people may benefit such that it may not be as fruitless as we think.
In a short, simple, English paragraph with no pseudo-jargon, what does irishpilgrim mean by a patriarchal and scriptural model.
I feel so sorry for that man for what he has to endure relative to all of the cases that
are presented to him. He never has a peaceful moment.
Thank you for your obviously tiring efforts, abilities, tact, zeal and patience in these discussions.
As to your accurate observations, I have pled guilty, but generally without spiritual apology, many times. My irish is diluted, but I’m certain that you have experienced somewhat similar traits. Some of us try to speak faster than we can think. Too often, too easy. Usually the faith and spirit of our persecuted ancestors keep us between the ditches, but not without deserved blows and scars.
I have zero training in epidemiology, but general Coptic divorce rates are not going to be of any value yet. Wait about twenty years, if the present pampering, nurturing and avoidance of traditional spiritual treatment is continued. The relevant statistics of the growth of the demonic disease of freudian feminist divorce of young families must be collected in the individual Coptic parishes in the Los Angeles area, Dallas area, Houston area, Nashville area, popular Florida areas and the New Jersey area. The ages of the divorced children victims are vital. The relevant bishops, priests, priests’ wives and parish women leaders, organizations, activities and speakers will localize and identify the malignancy’s cause. Another accurate indicator of cause would be the increase in freudian counseling income from and through the major parish centers of high divorce volume. No divorce, no feminist loved/ loving freudian counseling business.
In my earlier posts I quantified and qualified the Texas, Cali and New Jersey divorces that I have somewhat personally witnessed. The most glaring sign of the growing apostasy is the deafening silence of the response from our Pope, bishops and priests who for many years have been relentlessly petitioned by young Coptic husband victims of these divorces. And, our expectedly concerned local priests have seemingly been ordered, with threat of loss of family livelihood, to silence. Many U.S. Greek, Antiochian, OCA and long gone Catholic priests have suffered the fatal sting of this demonic feminist whip. Canadian OCA priest, Fr. Lawrence Farley’s article, Naming the Debate, recounts this scourge’s passage through the Anglican/Episcopal bishop and priestly ranks; and their feminist lesbian/homosexual replacement. Irish American author, Donna Steichen’s study, UNGODLY RAGE, The Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism (1991), seemingly provides all of the vital details and the current Coptic feminists’ game plan. The Coptic feminists’ takeover and manipulation of the Department of Youth seems to precisely follow the process, described by Mrs. Steichen, used by Catholic feminists to takeover Catholic education operations over 20 years ago. Feminist caused divorce was mentioned, but not directly addressed by either Fr. Farley or Mrs. Steichen. There are several objective studies that show the obvious long-term adverse effects of divorce and family division on children.
Having admitted that you don't have credible epidemiological data, let's examine what evidence you do have. As far as I can tell, you are claiming through personal observation that a feminist loving Freudian counselling has infiltrated the church attacking Coptic fathers and making Coptic children the victims of demonic feminism. Does this summarize your philosophy?
As mentioned before, why do you assume that all Coptic divorce is driven (if not caused) by feminist women? Why do you place all the blame on females? Statistically speaking (at least in Western societies), extra-marital affairs (adultery) - which is the only legitimate grounds for divorce - is committed by men more than women. There is no concrete statistics. But the closest "guess" is 50-65% of husbands have affairs, while 45-55% of wives have affairs. When you examine people under 40, it becomes nearly 50/50. If demonic feminism causes women to have divorces, what causes men to have affairs and divorce? Demonic Freudian feminism again?
The fact of the matter is that divorce is not caused by feminism. It is not caused by Freudian counselling. It is not caused by women only. It is caused by anyone who forgotten the love of God. It is caused by anyone who has forgotten the model of the husband and wife is the model of Christ and the Church.
While most of us will agree that sin and the result of sin (such as divorce) is on the rise, we have put our faith in God. "Where sin has abounded, the grace of God has abundantly increased" (Liturgy of St Gregory). It is only God's grace that will effectively change the rise of sin and divorce. Politicizing for a new patriarch who will wage an all out, frontal attack on feminism is not going to solve anything. Comparing books and articles (some of the articles you quoted have been discussed and are not reliable) about feminism doesn't solve the divorce incidence. Passing the blame to the clergy and the papacy of Pope Shenouda does not solve divorce. It only disqualifies and discredits you and your arguments infinitely more.
If you want to do something proactive about the rise in divorce, (with all due respect) put the Irish away. Stop using the victim of feminism card. Stop blaming the clergy. Pray for God's grace. Then you will have, what I would consider, a more coherent philosophy to address this problem.
Irishpilgrim,
Having admitted that you don't have credible epidemiological data, let's examine what evidence you do have. As far as I can tell, you are claiming through personal observation that a feminist loving Freudian counselling has infiltrated the church attacking Coptic fathers and making Coptic children the victims of demonic feminism. Does this summarize your philosophy?
As mentioned before, why do you assume that all Coptic divorce is driven (if not caused) by feminist women? Why do you place all the blame on females? Statistically speaking (at least in Western societies), extra-marital affairs (adultery) - which is the only legitimate grounds for divorce - is committed by men more than women. There is no concrete statistics. But the closest "guess" is 50-65% of husbands have affairs, while 45-55% of wives have affairs. When you examine people under 40, it becomes nearly 50/50. If demonic feminism causes women to have divorces, what causes men to have affairs and divorce? Demonic Freudian feminism again?
The fact of the matter is that divorce is not caused by feminism. It is not caused by Freudian counselling. It is not caused by women only. It is caused by anyone who forgotten the love of God. It is caused by anyone who has forgotten the model of the husband and wife is the model of Christ and the Church.
While most of us will agree that sin and the result of sin (such as divorce) is on the rise, we have put our faith in God. "Where sin has abounded, the grace of God has abundantly increased" (Liturgy of St Gregory). It is only God's grace that will effectively change the rise of sin and divorce. Politicizing for a new patriarch who will wage an all out, frontal attack on feminism is not going to solve anything. Comparing books and articles (some of the articles you quoted have been discussed and are not reliable) about feminism doesn't solve the divorce incidence. Passing the blame to the clergy and the papacy of Pope Shenouda does not solve divorce. It only disqualifies and discredits you and your arguments infinitely more.
If you want to do something proactive about the rise in divorce, (with all due respect) put the Irish away. Stop using the victim of feminism card. Stop blaming the clergy. Pray for God's grace. Then you will have, what I would consider, a more coherent philosophy to address this problem.
Excellent.
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