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Great Lent Verses of the Cymbals
I was wondering why some churches place Apenchois Isos Piekhristos after the St. Mary verses...the verses are about God/Jesus, which are higher than St. Mary. In the hymn Apenchois, the verses of Jesus Christ are before St. Mary, so why do people say Apenchois after the Shere Ne Maria verses?
Comments
I was wondering why some churches place Apenchois Isos Piekhristos after the St. Mary verses...the verses are about God/Jesus, which are higher than St. Mary. In the hymn Apenchois, the verses of Jesus Christ are before St. Mary, so why do people say Apenchois after the Shere Ne Maria verses?
We place apenshois after shere ne maria ALL THE time and it been that way for as long as i remember. I believe the book says so to but i can't be sure....i havn't looked at it for while really.
2 more things:
1 - Apenshois verses do not surpass the shere ne maria -- the verses are concerning the fast and not Christ.
2 - The saint Mary parts are NOT part of the paralex of lent but they are St Mary's paralex that can actually be said in any liturgy of her feast (i think it is also recorded by the Muharraq monastery). The occasion verses supersede any others.
The same is true for any occasion. For example, during the Lord's feasts, we say the introduction (Danwosht) then we say the verses for the occasion.
Oujai
Glad imikhail joined in. Throw my tuppence of controversy.. what's the history of special verses for the cymbals, and specifically the Lenten one.. that's a watos verse smart cantors!!!
Oujai
mish fahim ya3ny eh "watos verse"?? ...and I am not asking as a 'smart cantor'
Oujai
Ps: is Lazarus hymn Adam, or watos? IS cantor Ibrahim right or cantor Wagdy?
It's a watos doxology verse.. composed of 7-9 syllables as you like calling it, while the hymn is an Adam hymn... I wasn't referring to anyone here as smart cantors. I was just making a critical statement for cantors, and I don't who those may be, who like embellishing the hymns with innovations.. ya 3ammy howa 7ad fahem 7aga? Remember that comment I made before?
one question.......Why is there many verses that we say in verses of cymbals, we also say as the gospel response?
Ps: is Lazarus hymn Adam, or watos? IS cantor Ibrahim right or cantor Wagdy?
I thought i spoke about this already. The hymn is WATOS. both recordings are in watos tunes. Pioik is the long annual watos tune. O-oiniato (the annual gospel response) is normally said in the mohayyar annual watos tune and after the quick annual watos tune is said. communion hymn, Abana allaze is said in the quick annual watos tune. they reason it may sound different than the gospel response is most ppl say the madeha in a slower pace. so you can say that hymn in either ways.
ALSO, some books say specifically which tune to use.
Bewik (or be'eish) is Adam, not watos... it's the same tune as the the last two verses of the Sunday Adam taodokeya...
No we don't use verses of the verses of cymbals as Gospel responses.. give me one example please
Dear aem581,
I think we discussed that before here.. the last two verses in that paralax are controversial as the hymn is all about Christ.. they are added in nahdet el kanayes book, but not cantor Farag's for example.. imikhail can shed more light I guess
Oujai
They are dogmatically wrong. In addition, they have nothing to do with the fast and linguistically, they have mistakes.
They should not be said.
All the Ooniatk we say for saints we some times use as gospel responses. Wait, all th shere's are said in almost every martyrs doxology, which are watos
Bewik, or be'eish is a verse in the Adam taodokeya.. it's Adam.. annual communion hymn for Sundays, not even fridays, but ... or saturdays as in Lazarus Saturday..
As for the shara's, or shere's verses, and owneyatk, are watos as you rightly said.. I guess the only rationale is that they can be used without irregularity as Adam acts responses.. maybe because the number of their syllables can allow for such a case.. maybe that's the case with owcanna, the only example for a watos Gospel response included in the verses of cymbals.. having said all of that I think abanshois is too overcrowded to fit in... that's why I'm questioning its inclusion.. but "what do we know?"
Oujai
Mina,
Bewik, or be'eish is a verse in the Adam taodokeya.. it's Adam.. annual communion hymn for Sundays, not even fridays, but ... or saturdays as in Lazarus Saturday..
but the issue is the tune not the day. the rite of Lazarus Saturday is annual.
As for the shara's, or shere's verses, and owneyatk, are watos as you rightly said.. I guess the only rationale is that they can be used without irregularity as Adam acts responses.. maybe because the number of their syllables can allow for such a case.. maybe that's the case with owcanna, the only example for a watos Gospel response included in the verses of cymbals.. having said all of that I think abanshois is too overcrowded to fit in... that's why I'm questioning its inclusion.. but "what do we know?"
Oujai
osanna is not the only one. We say Lebon avqaf for the resurrection as a gospel response and as a aspasmos watos. there are probably other ones to.
What i would rather say is that the verses of cymbals have their own unique tune. it's like lahn O-ohn o helbees that is said for the difnar. i recently found out that you say the introduction of the day, watos or adam, than O ohn o-helpees with it's unique tune and than continue with the day's difnar.
The same is true for the braxis response.
As for the Gospel Responses of awniatk, shara, ... these are not the authentic responses but "tarkeeb". There is a response for every gospel read especially on Sundays.
The verses of the cymbals are new additions to the original rite. That is why they do not have their own verses. They borrow from the doxologies.
The same is true for the braxis response.
WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL RITE for the verses of cymbals and praxis responses?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13084.msg153750#msg153750 date=1332870364]
The verses of the cymbals are new additions to the original rite. That is why they do not have their own verses. They borrow from the doxologies.
The same is true for the braxis response.
WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL RITE for the verses of cymbals and praxis responses?
The original rite for the verses of the cymbals is just Keryalayson that we say in Great Lent. This used to be prayed all year.
Braxis had no response, it was just read in Coptic and interpreted in Arabic.
As for the Gospel Responses of awniatk, shara, ... these are not the authentic responses but "tarkeeb". There is a response for every gospel read especially on Sundays.
The original rite for the verses of the cymbals is just Keryalayson that we say in Great Lent. This used to be prayed all year.
you said that before....i;d like to see a source....just for future refernce. wow.....also asking for a source. and where can we find those reponses.
ALSO to all of the above, when did that rite stop?
I gave the exact reference before.
Also if you need detailed tehnical explanations .. an excellent source are the books by Fr.Athanasius Al Makary. For this particular topic consult his book titled Fast of Nineveh and Great Lent (Arabic)
you wouldn't have a digital version of tarteeb elbaya3a.....i been trying to find it for a while now.
No, it is not available digitally at this time.
i recently found out that you say the introduction of the day, watos or adam, than O ohn o-helpees with it's unique tune and than continue with the day's difnar.
Have you got a reference for this Mina? I was always taught that Oon Ohelpees was said after the reading of the Defnar as a conclusion.
Although I guess it does seem logical that it should follow the Adam Introduction (Amoini) at least...
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13084.msg153748#msg153748 date=1332869087]
i recently found out that you say the introduction of the day, watos or adam, than O ohn o-helpees with it's unique tune and than continue with the day's difnar.
Have you got a reference for this Mina? I was always taught that Oon Ohelpees was said after the reading of the Defnar as a conclusion.
Although I guess it does seem logical that it should follow the Adam Introduction (Amoini) at least...
the difnar...... ;D. the first page after the intro. the watos intro is what's said in kiahk vespers praise, the adam intro is ammoine marin and annon kha nilaoc and a continuation for both you say oon o helpis where in the second paragraph, you can add the name of the saint of the day after the Virgin.
I didn't expect that from you. Adam and watos refer to both the wording and the tune. You cannot make that simple mistake man. Gospel response is by definition watos. That is why it follows either doxologies or Aspasmos watos. Acts response on the other hand is Adam, and that is why it has so much in common with verses of cymbals, which again is Adam.
Thanks imikhail... I have always wanted to hear about the history of the hymns.
Oujai qen `P[C