[quote author=Biboboy link=topic=13080.msg153872#msg153872 date=1332981008] "No one knows the exact date of Christ's Resurrection"
What do you mean? It was certainly after the Jewish Passover, which had to be on the 14th day of the month of Nissan. First of all, the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, not a solar calendar. So even if the Jewish Passover is on the 14th day o f Nissan, it will not correspond to the Julian or Gregorian calendar (solar calendars) the same date every year. Secondly, we know from the Gospel that in the year Jesus was crucified, there was some sort of calendar change because St John tells us "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath" (John 19:31). In other words, this Passover needed some sort of correction in the Jewish calendar because the Sabbath was special.
Additionally, no one knows the exact year Christ was born and the Resurrection. Without knowing the year Christ was risen, then we don't know when the Jewish Passover was in that year. We will also have to convert the special Jewish Passover into the Julian or Gregorian calendar. This can only be done if we can narrow down the year.
I am claiming that the WHOLE Coptic calendar needs to be updated. The Gregorian calendar is accurate, and almost exactly the same length as the tropical year, and will remain accurate for thousands of years to come.
The Gregorian calendar is the most accurate calendar in use today. That doesn't mean it is absolutely accurate in measuring the solar year. It has nothing to do with the calculation of feasts. The Epoch calculation was not concerned with the solar year length. It was merely a method to calculate a lunar event and convert it to a solar calendar using certain parameters and requirements. Chaning the Coptic Calendar will not increase feast calculation accuracy. It will, however, create a political war-game.
The Jews changed the day of the Pascha feast the year they crucified our Lord. This was done intentionally and with malice so that they could kill the Lord.
The Passover lamb was to be killed on the 14th of Nisan at the 9th hour (3:00 PM), then prepared which extended into the next day, 15th of Nisan when it was eaten, since the next day in the Jewish calendar began with sunset. At the Passover meal, unleavened bread was prepared. In fact, there was a ceremony held by the priests to declare when leaven should be removed from the homes. They would make a large loaf of bread and put it at a visible point in the city (Jerusalem) so that all could see that that was the day declared as the Passover. When the people saw the first loaf of leavened bread placed on this high tower, they would begin collecting not only leaven, but also anything in the house that had leaven in it (e.g. bread, etc…) This was important because once a second loaf was placed on this high tower in a ceremonial fashion, the leaven that was collected was burned.
The chief priests were able to postpone the Passover by declaring that the vision of the new moon of Nisan was not confirmed or is doubtful, and what was declared to be the first of Nisan has to be counted as the last day of Adar. Therefore, they were actually declaring that the 14th of Nisan is actually the 13th. This is what the chief priests did on Thursday and thus, the two loaves were not put on that high tower declaring the day of the Feast. In the West, this is difficult to appreciate, however, in the Middle East, it is not an uncommon occurrence amongst Muslims that Muslims in different countries celebrate their feasts on different days based on when they see the crescent. Thus, they had control over when the Passover was celebrated without the people feeling that the Law given to them was broken.
[This is an excerpt of a much longer article on our Lord celebrating the Passover on the correct day]
Sorry, sorry, sorry! In my Coptic Synaxarium there are exact days of the Crucifixion of the Lord and Resurrection and Palm Sunday. Why do you say we don´t know the dates? Concerning Christmas. One Coptic priest told me that it was on December 20. And January 7 was the day when the Magi came to Christ Child to worship. By the way January 7 the Catholic Church celebrates like worshiping of the Magi to Christ Child. I can agree that the calendar is not important. The most important is the faith. But can you answer me one question. Why in Greece when one part of the Orthodox Church adopted the Gregorian calendar, another part anathemized them for this? I only regret that Armenians don´t celebrate Easter like all Orthodox. Because it´s a little bit strange. And if people from outside would like to join the Orthodox Church, they will think that we are crazy because we don´t have common agreement in dates. How we can have common agreement in faith?
As for the Greek Orthodox church of Greece, they switched to the Gregorian calendar (but keeping the Julian Easter...which is why we celebrate together always) in 1922AD. Then, in response to this change a very small group separated themselves from the recognized canonical church and 'anathematized' the main church, calling themselves the True Orthodox Church of Greece or the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece. They even have diaspora parishes in the US and Canada. But again, this splinter group is very small and they are not recognized by the official church. They are sort of what Max Michel is to the Coptic Orthodox church, ie. not a real church because they left and started ordaining their own bishops on their own, which one simply cannot do.
[quote author=Alexrus77 link=topic=13080.msg154073#msg154073 date=1333392924] Sorry, sorry, sorry! In my Coptic Synaxarium there are exact days of the Crucifixion of the Lord and Resurrection and Palm Sunday. Why do you say we don´t know the dates? Concerning Christmas. One Coptic priest told me that it was on December 20. And January 7 was the day when the Magi came to Christ Child to worship. By the way January 7 the Catholic Church celebrates like worshiping of the Magi to Christ Child. The commemoration of the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and all other major Lord's feasts are in the Coptic synaxarium. The actual date (including the year) is not. We are only celebrating the feast on a certain date, not the annual date the event took place. The only feast that has a year and date indicated in the Synaxarium is the Nativity Feast ("5510 of the world"). However, this date has been rejected unofficially by most of the clergy. The current school of thought is Christ was born somewhere 7-4 BC (not 1 AD) because that is the closest astronomical observance of a "star" visible in Jerusalem.
In addition, if we were so sure that Christmas was January 7th or Decemeber 25th, why was it not observed until late 4th/early 5th century? Why would we need the Epoch calculation if we know the exact date of the Resurrection? Why would we have a movable feast date? If all the events were sure, we would only have fixed dates for the feasts and the Epoch calculation would be deprived of any practical significance.
I can agree that the calendar is not important. The most important is the faith. But can you answer me one question. Why in Greece when one part of the Orthodox Church adopted the Gregorian calendar, another part anathemized them for this?
If the most important thing is the faith and the calendar is not a matter of faith, then churches who anathemized others over the calendar have sinned. They have used ecclesiastical canon law for political control against dissident groups. The logical conclusion is that the only catalyst to change a feast date is to exert control over another group.
I only regret that Armenians don´t celebrate Easter like all Orthodox. Because it´s a little bit strange. And if people from outside would like to join the Orthodox Church, they will think that we are crazy because we don´t have common agreement in dates. How we can have common agreement in faith?
If someone thinks the Orthodox Church is crazy because there are multiple dates for a feast, then that person has a limited, wrong and erroneous view on Orthodoxy. Two churches don't have to have the same feast date to have the same faith. It's like saying two people can't be Orthodox if they don't have the same birthday. A feast date calculation is not a matter of faith. Dates don't define Orthodoxy.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13080.msg154095#msg154095 date=1333408240] It's like saying two people can't be Orthodox if they don't have the same birthday. A feast date calculation is not a matter of faith. Dates don't define Orthodoxy.
I agree with this point of view. BUT how is it possible that Christ is born twice and crucified twice and resurrected twice?? I feel a little bit strange when one part of Christians is celebrating Easter Week and is joyful while the other experience the passions of Christ. It passes all belief. And I have another question. If two churches have 2 different types of calculation of Easter, why in some years did the dates of Easter coincide?
It is a celebration of an event - it is not that event itself. Christ is not crucified twice. He has only ever been crucified once. It would be good to keep these feasts on the same date but it is not the end of the world if they are not. Will those Orthodox who still use the less accurate Julian calendar change? Who knows.
The dates co-incide because of the way the rule works out in the real world. It is not two types of calculation, it is the same calculation, but the Julian calendar does not match the real world anymore and so has to use certain assumptions. Sometimes these assumptions lead to the same date being calculated.
But the West and many Orthodox have not changed the calculation. They are trying to remain faithful to the calculation.
Comments
"No one knows the exact date of Christ's Resurrection"
What do you mean? It was certainly after the Jewish Passover, which had to be on the 14th day of the month of Nissan.
First of all, the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, not a solar calendar. So even if the Jewish Passover is on the 14th day o f Nissan, it will not correspond to the Julian or Gregorian calendar (solar calendars) the same date every year. Secondly, we know from the Gospel that in the year Jesus was crucified, there was some sort of calendar change because St John tells us "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath" (John 19:31). In other words, this Passover needed some sort of correction in the Jewish calendar because the Sabbath was special.
Additionally, no one knows the exact year Christ was born and the Resurrection. Without knowing the year Christ was risen, then we don't know when the Jewish Passover was in that year. We will also have to convert the special Jewish Passover into the Julian or Gregorian calendar. This can only be done if we can narrow down the year. The Gregorian calendar is the most accurate calendar in use today. That doesn't mean it is absolutely accurate in measuring the solar year. It has nothing to do with the calculation of feasts. The Epoch calculation was not concerned with the solar year length. It was merely a method to calculate a lunar event and convert it to a solar calendar using certain parameters and requirements. Chaning the Coptic Calendar will not increase feast calculation accuracy. It will, however, create a political war-game.
The Jews changed the day of the Pascha feast the year they crucified our Lord. This was done intentionally and with malice so that they could kill the Lord.
Could you expound on that thought?
imike,
Could you expound on that thought?
The Passover lamb was to be killed on the 14th of Nisan at the 9th hour (3:00 PM), then prepared which extended into the next day, 15th of Nisan when it was eaten, since the next day in the Jewish calendar began with sunset. At the Passover meal, unleavened bread was prepared. In fact, there was a ceremony held by the priests to declare when leaven should be removed from the homes. They would make a large loaf of bread and put it at a visible point in the city (Jerusalem) so that all could see that that was the day declared as the Passover. When the people saw the first loaf of leavened bread placed on this high tower, they would begin collecting not only leaven, but also anything in the house that had leaven in it (e.g. bread, etc…) This was important because once a second loaf was placed on this high tower in a ceremonial fashion, the leaven that was collected was burned.
The chief priests were able to postpone the Passover by declaring that the vision of the new moon of Nisan was not confirmed or is doubtful, and what was declared to be the first of Nisan has to be counted as the last day of Adar. Therefore, they were actually declaring that the 14th of Nisan is actually the 13th. This is what the chief priests did on Thursday and thus, the two loaves were not put on that high tower declaring the day of the Feast. In the West, this is difficult to appreciate, however, in the Middle East, it is not an uncommon occurrence amongst Muslims that Muslims in different countries celebrate their feasts on different days based on when they see the crescent. Thus, they had control over when the Passover was celebrated without the people feeling that the Law given to them was broken.
[This is an excerpt of a much longer article on our Lord celebrating the Passover on the correct day]
In my Coptic Synaxarium there are exact days of the Crucifixion of the Lord and Resurrection and Palm Sunday. Why do you say we don´t know the dates? Concerning Christmas. One Coptic priest told me that it was on December 20. And January 7 was the day when the Magi came to Christ Child to worship. By the way January 7 the Catholic Church celebrates like worshiping of the Magi to Christ Child.
I can agree that the calendar is not important. The most important is the faith.
But can you answer me one question. Why in Greece when one part of the Orthodox Church adopted the Gregorian calendar, another part anathemized them for this?
I only regret that Armenians don´t celebrate Easter like all Orthodox. Because it´s a little bit strange. And if people from outside would like to join the Orthodox Church, they will think that we are crazy because we don´t have common agreement in dates. How we can have common agreement in faith?
Sorry, sorry, sorry!
In my Coptic Synaxarium there are exact days of the Crucifixion of the Lord and Resurrection and Palm Sunday. Why do you say we don´t know the dates? Concerning Christmas. One Coptic priest told me that it was on December 20. And January 7 was the day when the Magi came to Christ Child to worship. By the way January 7 the Catholic Church celebrates like worshiping of the Magi to Christ Child.
The commemoration of the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and all other major Lord's feasts are in the Coptic synaxarium. The actual date (including the year) is not. We are only celebrating the feast on a certain date, not the annual date the event took place. The only feast that has a year and date indicated in the Synaxarium is the Nativity Feast ("5510 of the world"). However, this date has been rejected unofficially by most of the clergy. The current school of thought is Christ was born somewhere 7-4 BC (not 1 AD) because that is the closest astronomical observance of a "star" visible in Jerusalem.
In addition, if we were so sure that Christmas was January 7th or Decemeber 25th, why was it not observed until late 4th/early 5th century? Why would we need the Epoch calculation if we know the exact date of the Resurrection? Why would we have a movable feast date? If all the events were sure, we would only have fixed dates for the feasts and the Epoch calculation would be deprived of any practical significance. If the most important thing is the faith and the calendar is not a matter of faith, then churches who anathemized others over the calendar have sinned. They have used ecclesiastical canon law for political control against dissident groups. The logical conclusion is that the only catalyst to change a feast date is to exert control over another group. If someone thinks the Orthodox Church is crazy because there are multiple dates for a feast, then that person has a limited, wrong and erroneous view on Orthodoxy. Two churches don't have to have the same feast date to have the same faith. It's like saying two people can't be Orthodox if they don't have the same birthday. A feast date calculation is not a matter of faith. Dates don't define Orthodoxy.
It's like saying two people can't be Orthodox if they don't have the same birthday. A feast date calculation is not a matter of faith. Dates don't define Orthodoxy.
I agree with this point of view.
BUT how is it possible that Christ is born twice and crucified twice and resurrected twice??
I feel a little bit strange when one part of Christians is celebrating Easter Week and is joyful while the other experience the passions of Christ. It passes all belief.
And I have another question. If two churches have 2 different types of calculation of Easter, why in some years did the dates of Easter coincide?
The dates co-incide because of the way the rule works out in the real world. It is not two types of calculation, it is the same calculation, but the Julian calendar does not match the real world anymore and so has to use certain assumptions. Sometimes these assumptions lead to the same date being calculated.
But the West and many Orthodox have not changed the calculation. They are trying to remain faithful to the calculation.