[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146104#msg146104 date=1318602608] I also believe that David and Solomon had a multitude of wives and that has been deposed in the concept of monogamy and Holy Matrimony.
*sigh* Context, context, context. David and Solomon were monarchs. Historically, monarchs married multiple wives for the sole purpose of forging political alliances. Does that somehow mean God condones polygamy? Obviously not. Did He allow it due to human frailty? Yes. Yet another example of proof-texting.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146104#msg146104 date=1318602608] I do not believe the Scriptures (at least my version) does not identify that the people were drunk at Cana of Galilee.
[quote=John 2:9-10 (KJV)]When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Kinda obvious. This does not mean that everyone present was drunk. But it does mean that a lot of the guests were. And you don't think that 6 waterpots at 25-30 gallons each won't result in drunkenness (even assuming the guests weren't already drunk to begin with)? Who are we kidding.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146104#msg146104 date=1318602608] They (the Pharisees) wanted to attribute Our Lord as a drunk, demon-possessed, and Belzebub to try to discredit His Word.
So saying that He was also a friend of tax collectors and sinners was a false attribution?
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146104#msg146104 date=1318602608] Our Lord also did not follow the Jewish ritual of washing at times, does that make Him a sinner (God forbid)?
Didn't He? As a Jew, Christ followed all proper ritual practices (including ritual washing). What you are mixing up is that He and his disciples did not necessarily wash before eating. Does that constitute ritual washing? What 'ritual' were they about to perform?
There are plenty of people with multiple wives. Here's a cute example: Jacob.
I have attended Sader meals. They don't use the jug in the refrigerator decanter for the 16 cups. They use little dainty cups (maybe 2 oz). BTW: They were Orthodox Jews.
How many people attended these Marriage Feasts?...it was a neighborhood and clan party; six stone jars would be nothing.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146107#msg146107 date=1318608221] There are plenty of people with multiple wives.
List them.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146107#msg146107 date=1318608221] Here's a cute example: Jacob.
Your 'cute' example falls flat on its face. Jacob worked for Laban for the express reason to marry Rachel (and only Rachel). Laban tricked Jacob into marrying Leah with the excuse that it was the custom for the older to marry before the younger. Jacob didn't exactly choose this.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146107#msg146107 date=1318608221] I have attended Sader meals. They don't use the jug in the refrigerator decanter for the 16 cups. They use little dainty cups (maybe 2 oz). BTW: They were Orthodox Jews.
I hadn't realized you were 2000 years old. So you joined in a Seder in 1st century Palestine? I hadn't realized they had little dainty 2 oz. cups back then. You do realize that rituals evolve over time? It happened in our Church, you don't think it happened among the Jews? Oh, and by the by, modern day Orthodox Jews are not the same as 1st century Palestinian Jews. Judaism has changed A LOT post-Christ.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146107#msg146107 date=1318608221] How many people attended these Marriage Feasts?...it was a neighborhood and clan party; six stone jars would be nothing.
How many people do you think were in attendance? 100 people? 200 people? It certainly wouldn't have been more. Now, let's put some perspective as to the amount of wine actually at the wedding. Forget about all the wine that was consumed before Christ transformed the water into wine. Let's just look at the 6 waterpots (at 25-30 gallons apiece). Do you know how much a keg is? Here, you can read about the size of a keg here. As you can see from the lovely little chart, a full keg is 15.5 gallons. How much can come out of that? Let's go with the small 12 oz. glasses and we can serve about 165 people. A single waterpot at this wedding would be the size of 2 FULL KEGS! Now multiply that by 6. We've got 12 full kegs of wine available. That means, at 12 oz. a person, you can serve 1980 people. You want to tell me that no one would be getting drunk? Good luck.
I just finished writing my Sunday School lesson on Hagar ;)
Wrong. Abraham was married only to Sarah. Hagar was Sarah's personal maidservant. So what Abraham technically did was commit adultery (though with Sarah's permission). They did not trust God that He would fulfill His promise. Again, human frailty. Did God condone it? Nope. Did He permit it? Yup.
Regardless, Jacob was married to: Leah and Rachel (not to mention the handmaids of each as procreation partners). Moses had two wives.
As for Abraham: KJV: Gen 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife (self-explanatory).
As a BTW and reminder, Abraham had a third wife (after Sarah's death) who begat him sons. KJV: Gen 25:1,2
Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
I guess from all of your calculations that makes you an expert on invitational presence at the given Wedding in Cana (I guess your Bible had the invitation list). An entire village could be included in such a wedding. I also believe that such wedding feasts could go on for up to a week. The reason it could go on for a week is that visitors and family from different villages, disctricts would have a chance to make a journey to be in attendance. For reference, there were no: airports, railroads, buses, automobiles. They had only jackasses to ride on or to walk. A step you forgot to make in your calculations was to divide by: 7. Moreover you neglect the aspect of the freshness of the wine after it is opened, for the which the gospel speaks about the aspect of the better wine for last vs. first. I believe wine making back then did not follow procedure from the vineyards of California, France, or Italy. Palestinian 1st century wine, went bad very quickly: endpoint--vinegar.
My perspective on an Orthodox Jewish Sader is relative to the tradition that is passed down from a first hand experience. Have you ever attended an Orthodox Sader?
My point about the Lord and the Sabbath was that He put the Sabbath into perspective, and also had to deal with the misinterpretation (and evil attempt) of the Pharisees to try to raise a Legal case against Him.
Hey guys i think this thread is really missing the point. God has blessed us with a day off from schools and work that has the word THANKSGIVING Who cares how others celebrate it. We as Copts should use that time and do thanksgiving in whatever way we please. Unity is the best thing. so if our families get together and eat turkey on Thanksgiving day so be it. For real guys lets stop being closeminded like seriously we should be thankful that such a holiday still exists in a time period as the one we live in. Lets give thanks to god instead of worriyng about whether thanksgiving is right or wrong or how we should celebrate or what are views are.
Should we open another thread on polygamy or continue here because I have a few controversial comments about the topic. I think it may help us learn something.
[quote author=christ_rose link=topic=12429.msg146160#msg146160 date=1318708396] Hey guys i think this thread is really missing the point. God has blessed us with a day off from schools and work that has the word THANKSGIVING Who cares how others celebrate it. We as Copts should use that time and do thanksgiving in whatever way we please. Unity is the best thing. so if our families get together and eat turkey on Thanksgiving day so be it. For real guys lets stop being closeminded like seriously we should be thankful that such a holiday still exists in a time period as the one we live in. Lets give thanks to god instead of worriyng about whether thanksgiving is right or wrong or how we should celebrate or what are views are.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg145887#msg145887 date=1318290630] I don't have a problem with a national holiday giving thanks to the Almighty. I have difficulty with our people enjoining themselves with the frivolity and folly of American hypocrisy.
The reason we don't kiss or greet anyone during Pascha from Wednesday to Saturday is because Judas kissed Jesus, and we don't want any dealings with that.
The reason we don't trick or treat or eat candy on Halloween is because it's an evil day, and we don't want anything to do with that.
Thanksgiving day in North America is hypocrisy; any means of participating (eating turkey when they're eating turkey..etc) is a way of accepting their tradition as our own.
We have 155 days of the year in which we can eat turkey, but it kills us not to eat it with the Americans on this one day. Why?
Read chapter Four to find why we should give thanks to the Lord..
Hezekiel,
Thanks. I've read it before.
I don't have a problem with giving thanks to our Lord, not even on Thanksgiving day. My main concern is the celebration of Thanksgiving according to the Americans by the Copts.
Culture has nothing to do with thanksgiving. Halloween is the day of Satan. I personally think that the pascha thing DEFEATS THE POINT OF CHRISTIANITY!!!! i dont abide by that rule at all because it makes no sense to me! we dont wanna greet people like judas did thats great but i see my beloved in the church im gonna greet them like christ taught us.
Thanksgiving on the other hand is a day to eat with your families. you dont have to drink you dont have to eat "turkey". ON thanksgiivng when it comes during the fast my family fasts. if that makes u feel better thats fine. But like im telling you. We are too by the letter! who cares what others do outside on thanksgiivng let us give thanks to God and if we dont do it on a daily basis. LEt it be a reminder to us to do that everyday. CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING everyday !! but since we have off on thanksgiving use it to be with ur family and thank god ! its the same thing man
Thanksgiving, as it is practiced in America, is frivolity. Frivolity begets frivolity. Lack of seriousness only progresses into pathological lack of seriousness. There is no off button. Once people begin the path of frivolity and lightheardness, their hearts become altogether hardened.
What am I trying to say? I agree with TITL. And it's because we have become frivolous, we have become altogether hardened.
Thanksgiving was designated a national holiday by President Lincoln in 1863 to commemorate both the 1619 Virginia colony harvest and the 1621 Plymouth Massachusetts dinner. In both cases, as well as in Europe and Saint Augusta Florida with the Spanish colonists in 1545, the purpose of this festival was to celebrate and give thanks for a good harvest. The Native American Indians also celebrated a feast at the beginning and the end of the harvest. Contrarily, Canadians did not celebrate a good harvest at first. In 1578 a formal festival was established giving thanks for travels who survived the voyage from Europe. Later, 17th century French Canadian settlers also celebrate a thanksgiving festival after a good harvest. What is most important to remember is that in the Summer of 1621, the pilgrims who survived the winter and the journey from Europe called for a day of fasting and prayer to God and asked for a bountiful harvest in the coming fall. God answered their prayers and it rained on that day and their crops were saved. Source here and here.
What started out a day of fasting and prayer has now become an orgy of commercialism, gluttony and frivolity because we have "forsaken the love [we] had at first. Consider how far [we] have fallen!" (Rev 2:4, 5). Consider how Thanksgiving was a day of fasting and prayer and now Christians use this holiday as an excuse to delay fasting. Consider how Thanksgiving was a day to thank God for the harvest and now God has been replaced by a turkey. Consider how spirituality was the primary purpose for those pilgrims and now Christians unknowingly justify and associate Black Friday with Thanksgiving, gluttony until you burst as the main focus of Thanksgiving and social peer pressure as the reason to conform and join in with secular pleasure, instead of not being part of this world.
This did not happen all of a sudden. It was a gradual, slow, degrading process of frivolity. No one took it serious enough that we should first and foremost pray and fast to God, even when the harvest is plentiful. Gradually, people neglected to fast and pray. Gradually, people neglected to give God thanks. Gradually, people neglected God entirely. This is the teaching of Balaam (Rev 2:14) and the tolerance of that women Jezebel (Rev 2:20). As I said above, once people begin the path of frivolity and lack of seriousness, their hearts become altogether hardened.
Let us return to our first love. Let us "repent and do the things [we] did at first." (Rev 2:5). Let us keep the last Thursday of November as a dedicated fast, not in conjunction with bountiful harvest or social conformity to a secular holiday, but in commemoration of His mercy that saved us from the genocide we faced in Mokattam mountain and in preparation of our Savior's birth.
christ_rose, Culture has a lot to do with Thanksgiving. The very reason Thanksgiving is a national holiday is cultural. The way most Americans and Canadians celebrate thanksgiving is cultural. The way Christians conform to secular holidays is cultural. The Judas kiss ban on Pascha week is also cultural (Egyptian culture). And I agree that it defeats the purpose and message of Christ sacrificial passion of love and salvation. But nonetheless, it is found in many patristic writings. So it is not the same thing as Thanksgiving.
On the other hand, what we do on Pascha has no bearing and no correlation to what we do on Thanksgiving.
Additionally, just because good things are also done on Thanksgiving, such as having dinner with family, it doesn't make Thanksgiving a holiday we should celebrate. We don't celebrate Jewish Passover or Rosh ashana, even though they are feasts of atonement, belonging and family spirituality. We don't need to celebrate All-Saints day because Catholics celebrate it. We don't need to celebrate New Years Day on January 1st, when we have our own New Years feast of on Tute 1. The more we conform and copy others, the more we deviate from the seriousness and uniqueness of the Orthodox Church. Once the deviation starts, it doesn't stop. There is no off button.
On the other hand, what we do on Pascha has no bearing and no correlation to what we do on Thanksgiving.
The example I gave with Judas was just a metaphor. Another example, also in Pascha, is the Divine Liturgy on Holy Thursday before sunset as to not participate with the Jewish tradition of Passover.
Eating turkey with the Americans on Thanksgiving is sharing with their tradition and accepting it as our own... like we do in Pascha with the Jewish tradition.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12429.msg146162#msg146162 date=1318713782] Should we open another thread on polygamy or continue here because I have a few controversial comments about the topic. I think it may help us learn something.
I agree with everything you just wrote, but would like to remind everyone here that not everybody in the church comes from the Egyptian culture. Some of us DO have to spent thanksgiving with our families and celebrate the new year on January 1, because not doing so in our culture is not acceptable. I am fine with also celebrating the new year on Tute 1, but will not exchange one culture for another.
It's just like how we used to have tamales on Christmas Eve when my grandmother was still alive (she was Hispanic, and they don't really do cured ham or whatever). It didn't prevent us from also enjoying mashed potatoes, or singing Christmas carols in English, or whatever. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, as the American saying goes.
I do not like how this thread has evolved in some posts into Egyptians versus some sort of nameless, amorphous blob known as "the Americans" who all stuff their faces at any given opportunity and represent all the evil inherent in the choices that YOU choose to make as Copts.
I fasted with you during the three day fast after the incident at Maspero. And I do so every Wednesday and Friday, as well. I come to liturgy on time, I pray from the Agpeya (in English AND in Coptic), and I am an American citizen, born and raised here. Thanks to the Christian love and support of the good Coptic people here in Albuquerque, I see no contradiction between being an American and saying proudly that the Coptic Orthodox church is my church, in that it is within this faith that I have chosen to live my life, as a Christian who is also, by accident of birth, an American.
;) i have also met some kind, exciting, tri-lingual brave americans. as i said, my first thansgiving was in pakistan. i have also celebrated with americans in eastern europe. americans are cool. they just talk funny. ;) :P
Oh that doesn't bother me. I'm not looking for love in the church. I'm looking for some understanding of the true universal nature of the Orthodox faith. 99% of the time, I think everyone here has such an understanding. Cultural things are, well..."I prefer _____ because it's what I know". Nothing wrong with that, so long as it doesn't set up everyone who isn't _____ as being wrong/bad by virtue of being something else. There's a difference between me as an American who loves this country (not in a jingoistic sort of way, but just recognizing that it is a blessing to live in a society where people aren't burning down our churches, and we are free to celebrate Thanksgiving by fasting and prayer if we are lucky enough to be in an Orthodox family) criticizing what I see many of my fellow Americans doing because it is wrong in general and someone else criticizing it because "we shouldn't be like the Americans are". Well, I'm an American and I suppose in this way I'm not like "the Americans" are, but that's not because I'm so great. That's because "the Americans" aren't all like "the Americans", if that makes sense.
Jeremy, I'm sorry for the confusion. I hope I didn't offend you.
I was not speaking of American culture per se. I was speaking of culture vs. Orthodoxy as Christ illustrated in John 17. "They are not of the world", as I define it, means anything culturally motivated that is against Orthodoxy. It just so happens that the majority of Americans and Canadians celebrate Thanksgiving in a non-Orthodox manner. This does not mean that everything American is anti-Orthodoxy. But certain culturally motivated behavior is. This in itself doesn't fully define American culture either. There is a fine line here. I'm sorry I didn't clarify. I was speaking of American behavior that is contra-Orthodoxy. And because of social peer pressure, Orthodox Christians (not just Coptic) are beginning to give in to frivolity and adopt foreign customs instead of staying true to their conservative nature. This is more a judgment on "liberal" Orthodox Christians than a judgment on evil America cultural behavior.
Does that make sense? George
PS. Everyone is looking for love in the Church. It's not simply about universal understanding people who are different. We are called to sacrifice everything for you. This is love. This is what you should expect from the Orthodox Church.
I see. Thank you for clarifying, George. Please accept my apologies if I overreacted in any way.
PS. Everyone is looking for love in the Church. It's not simply about universal understanding people who are different. We are called to sacrifice everything for you. This is love. This is what you should expect from the Orthodox Church.
True enough, but I really just meant that I'm not looking for the church to approve of my "Americanness" or non-Egyptianness, because my nationality is not really depending on whether or not Egyptians or anyone else accepts it. So it doesn't bother me if someone in the church doesn't like this or that about American culture (as many Americans likewise have trouble with what passes for American culture), again, so long as it doesn't turn into a blanket condemnation of "Americans" as a concept or sort of metaphysical enemy, as opposed to the behavior that some Americans engage in (which, as you've noted, is also being engaged in by Orthodox people of all backgrounds).
Comments
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146104#msg146104 date=1318602608]
I also believe that David and Solomon had a multitude of wives and that has been deposed in the concept of monogamy and Holy Matrimony.
*sigh* Context, context, context. David and Solomon were monarchs. Historically, monarchs married multiple wives for the sole purpose of forging political alliances. Does that somehow mean God condones polygamy? Obviously not. Did He allow it due to human frailty? Yes. Yet another example of proof-texting.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146104#msg146104 date=1318602608]
I do not believe the Scriptures (at least my version) does not identify that the people were drunk at Cana of Galilee.
[quote=John 2:9-10 (KJV)]When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Kinda obvious. This does not mean that everyone present was drunk. But it does mean that a lot of the guests were. And you don't think that 6 waterpots at 25-30 gallons each won't result in drunkenness (even assuming the guests weren't already drunk to begin with)? Who are we kidding.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146104#msg146104 date=1318602608]
They (the Pharisees) wanted to attribute Our Lord as a drunk, demon-possessed, and Belzebub to try to discredit His Word.
So saying that He was also a friend of tax collectors and sinners was a false attribution?
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146104#msg146104 date=1318602608]
Our Lord also did not follow the Jewish ritual of washing at times, does that make Him a sinner (God forbid)?
Didn't He? As a Jew, Christ followed all proper ritual practices (including ritual washing). What you are mixing up is that He and his disciples did not necessarily wash before eating. Does that constitute ritual washing? What 'ritual' were they about to perform?
I have attended Sader meals. They don't use the jug in the refrigerator decanter for the 16 cups.
They use little dainty cups (maybe 2 oz).
BTW: They were Orthodox Jews.
How many people attended these Marriage Feasts?...it was a neighborhood and clan party; six stone jars would be nothing.
I just finished writing my Sunday School lesson on Hagar ;)
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146107#msg146107 date=1318608221]
There are plenty of people with multiple wives.
List them.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146107#msg146107 date=1318608221]
Here's a cute example: Jacob.
Your 'cute' example falls flat on its face. Jacob worked for Laban for the express reason to marry Rachel (and only Rachel). Laban tricked Jacob into marrying Leah with the excuse that it was the custom for the older to marry before the younger. Jacob didn't exactly choose this.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146107#msg146107 date=1318608221]
I have attended Sader meals. They don't use the jug in the refrigerator decanter for the 16 cups.
They use little dainty cups (maybe 2 oz).
BTW: They were Orthodox Jews.
I hadn't realized you were 2000 years old. So you joined in a Seder in 1st century Palestine? I hadn't realized they had little dainty 2 oz. cups back then. You do realize that rituals evolve over time? It happened in our Church, you don't think it happened among the Jews? Oh, and by the by, modern day Orthodox Jews are not the same as 1st century Palestinian Jews. Judaism has changed A LOT post-Christ.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146107#msg146107 date=1318608221]
How many people attended these Marriage Feasts?...it was a neighborhood and clan party; six stone jars would be nothing.
How many people do you think were in attendance? 100 people? 200 people? It certainly wouldn't have been more. Now, let's put some perspective as to the amount of wine actually at the wedding. Forget about all the wine that was consumed before Christ transformed the water into wine. Let's just look at the 6 waterpots (at 25-30 gallons apiece). Do you know how much a keg is? Here, you can read about the size of a keg here. As you can see from the lovely little chart, a full keg is 15.5 gallons. How much can come out of that? Let's go with the small 12 oz. glasses and we can serve about 165 people. A single waterpot at this wedding would be the size of 2 FULL KEGS! Now multiply that by 6. We've got 12 full kegs of wine available. That means, at 12 oz. a person, you can serve 1980 people. You want to tell me that no one would be getting drunk? Good luck.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg146108#msg146108 date=1318608326]
As a BTW: the Lord Christ also worked on the Sabbath.
So? Who knows what can and cannot be done on the Sabbath, the Pharisees and lawyers, or the One who instituted the Sabbath to begin with?
[quote author=TITL link=topic=12429.msg146109#msg146109 date=1318608706]
Abraham!!
I just finished writing my Sunday School lesson on Hagar ;)
Wrong. Abraham was married only to Sarah. Hagar was Sarah's personal maidservant. So what Abraham technically did was commit adultery (though with Sarah's permission). They did not trust God that He would fulfill His promise. Again, human frailty. Did God condone it? Nope. Did He permit it? Yup.
As for Abraham:
KJV: Gen 16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife (self-explanatory).
As a BTW and reminder, Abraham had a third wife (after Sarah's death) who begat him sons.
KJV: Gen 25:1,2
Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
I guess from all of your calculations that makes you an expert on invitational presence at the given Wedding in Cana (I guess your Bible had the invitation list). An entire village could be included in such a wedding. I also believe that such wedding feasts could go on for up to a week. The reason it could go on for a week is that visitors and family from different villages, disctricts would have a chance to make a journey to be in attendance. For reference, there were no: airports, railroads, buses, automobiles. They had only jackasses to ride on or to walk.
A step you forgot to make in your calculations was to divide by: 7.
Moreover you neglect the aspect of the freshness of the wine after it is opened, for the which the gospel speaks about the aspect of the better wine for last vs. first.
I believe wine making back then did not follow procedure from the vineyards of California, France, or Italy. Palestinian 1st century wine, went bad very quickly: endpoint--vinegar.
My perspective on an Orthodox Jewish Sader is relative to the tradition that is passed down from a first hand experience. Have you ever attended an Orthodox Sader?
My point about the Lord and the Sabbath was that He put the Sabbath into perspective, and also had to deal with the misinterpretation (and evil attempt) of the Pharisees to try to raise a Legal case against Him.
I use the Bible as my reference and not a keg from a keg party.
Didn't know about Moses.
"He (Gideon) had seventy sons of his own, for he had many wives." Judges 8:30
God has blessed us with a day off from schools and work that has the word THANKSGIVING
Who cares how others celebrate it. We as Copts should use that time and do thanksgiving in whatever way we please. Unity is the best thing. so if our families get together and eat turkey on Thanksgiving day so be it. For real guys lets stop being closeminded
like seriously we should be thankful that such a holiday still exists in a time period as the one we live in.
Lets give thanks to god instead of worriyng about whether thanksgiving is right or wrong or how we should celebrate or what are views are.
Read chapter Four to find why we should give thanks to the Lord..
Hey guys i think this thread is really missing the point.
God has blessed us with a day off from schools and work that has the word THANKSGIVING
Who cares how others celebrate it. We as Copts should use that time and do thanksgiving in whatever way we please. Unity is the best thing. so if our families get together and eat turkey on Thanksgiving day so be it. For real guys lets stop being closeminded
like seriously we should be thankful that such a holiday still exists in a time period as the one we live in.
Lets give thanks to god instead of worriyng about whether thanksgiving is right or wrong or how we should celebrate or what are views are.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=12429.msg145887#msg145887 date=1318290630]
I don't have a problem with a national holiday giving thanks to the Almighty. I have difficulty with our people enjoining themselves with the frivolity and folly of American hypocrisy.
The reason we don't kiss or greet anyone during Pascha from Wednesday to Saturday is because Judas kissed Jesus, and we don't want any dealings with that.
The reason we don't trick or treat or eat candy on Halloween is because it's an evil day, and we don't want anything to do with that.
Thanksgiving day in North America is hypocrisy; any means of participating (eating turkey when they're eating turkey..etc) is a way of accepting their tradition as our own.
We have 155 days of the year in which we can eat turkey, but it kills us not to eat it with the Americans on this one day. Why?
The Life of Thanksgiving - H.H. Pope Shenouda III
Read chapter Four to find why we should give thanks to the Lord..
Hezekiel,
Thanks. I've read it before.
I don't have a problem with giving thanks to our Lord, not even on Thanksgiving day. My main concern is the celebration of Thanksgiving according to the Americans by the Copts.
Culture has nothing to do with thanksgiving. Halloween is the day of Satan.
I personally think that the pascha thing DEFEATS THE POINT OF CHRISTIANITY!!!! i dont abide by that rule at all because it makes no sense to me! we dont wanna greet people like judas did thats great but i see my beloved in the church im gonna greet them like christ taught us.
Thanksgiving on the other hand is a day to eat with your families. you dont have to drink you dont have to eat "turkey". ON thanksgiivng when it comes during the fast my family fasts. if that makes u feel better thats fine.
But like im telling you. We are too by the letter! who cares what others do outside on thanksgiivng let us give thanks to God and if we dont do it on a daily basis. LEt it be a reminder to us to do that everyday. CELEBRATE THANKSGIVING everyday !! but since we have off on thanksgiving use it to be with ur family and thank god ! its the same thing man
What am I trying to say? I agree with TITL. And it's because we have become frivolous, we have become altogether hardened.
Thanksgiving was designated a national holiday by President Lincoln in 1863 to commemorate both the 1619 Virginia colony harvest and the 1621 Plymouth Massachusetts dinner. In both cases, as well as in Europe and Saint Augusta Florida with the Spanish colonists in 1545, the purpose of this festival was to celebrate and give thanks for a good harvest. The Native American Indians also celebrated a feast at the beginning and the end of the harvest. Contrarily, Canadians did not celebrate a good harvest at first. In 1578 a formal festival was established giving thanks for travels who survived the voyage from Europe. Later, 17th century French Canadian settlers also celebrate a thanksgiving festival after a good harvest. What is most important to remember is that in the Summer of 1621, the pilgrims who survived the winter and the journey from Europe called for a day of fasting and prayer to God and asked for a bountiful harvest in the coming fall. God answered their prayers and it rained on that day and their crops were saved. Source here and here.
What started out a day of fasting and prayer has now become an orgy of commercialism, gluttony and frivolity because we have "forsaken the love [we] had at first. Consider how far [we] have fallen!" (Rev 2:4, 5). Consider how Thanksgiving was a day of fasting and prayer and now Christians use this holiday as an excuse to delay fasting. Consider how Thanksgiving was a day to thank God for the harvest and now God has been replaced by a turkey. Consider how spirituality was the primary purpose for those pilgrims and now Christians unknowingly justify and associate Black Friday with Thanksgiving, gluttony until you burst as the main focus of Thanksgiving and social peer pressure as the reason to conform and join in with secular pleasure, instead of not being part of this world.
This did not happen all of a sudden. It was a gradual, slow, degrading process of frivolity. No one took it serious enough that we should first and foremost pray and fast to God, even when the harvest is plentiful. Gradually, people neglected to fast and pray. Gradually, people neglected to give God thanks. Gradually, people neglected God entirely. This is the teaching of Balaam (Rev 2:14) and the tolerance of that women Jezebel (Rev 2:20). As I said above, once people begin the path of frivolity and lack of seriousness, their hearts become altogether hardened.
Let us return to our first love. Let us "repent and do the things [we] did at first." (Rev 2:5). Let us keep the last Thursday of November as a dedicated fast, not in conjunction with bountiful harvest or social conformity to a secular holiday, but in commemoration of His mercy that saved us from the genocide we faced in Mokattam mountain and in preparation of our Savior's birth.
Culture has a lot to do with Thanksgiving. The very reason Thanksgiving is a national holiday is cultural. The way most Americans and Canadians celebrate thanksgiving is cultural. The way Christians conform to secular holidays is cultural. The Judas kiss ban on Pascha week is also cultural (Egyptian culture). And I agree that it defeats the purpose and message of Christ sacrificial passion of love and salvation. But nonetheless, it is found in many patristic writings. So it is not the same thing as Thanksgiving.
On the other hand, what we do on Pascha has no bearing and no correlation to what we do on Thanksgiving.
Additionally, just because good things are also done on Thanksgiving, such as having dinner with family, it doesn't make Thanksgiving a holiday we should celebrate. We don't celebrate Jewish Passover or Rosh ashana, even though they are feasts of atonement, belonging and family spirituality. We don't need to celebrate All-Saints day because Catholics celebrate it. We don't need to celebrate New Years Day on January 1st, when we have our own New Years feast of on Tute 1. The more we conform and copy others, the more we deviate from the seriousness and uniqueness of the Orthodox Church. Once the deviation starts, it doesn't stop. There is no off button.
Eating turkey with the Americans on Thanksgiving is sharing with their tradition and accepting it as our own... like we do in Pascha with the Jewish tradition.
[quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=12429.msg146162#msg146162 date=1318713782]
Should we open another thread on polygamy or continue here because I have a few controversial comments about the topic. I think it may help us learn something.
;D
I agree with everything you just wrote, but would like to remind everyone here that not everybody in the church comes from the Egyptian culture. Some of us DO have to spent thanksgiving with our families and celebrate the new year on January 1, because not doing so in our culture is not acceptable. I am fine with also celebrating the new year on Tute 1, but will not exchange one culture for another.
It's just like how we used to have tamales on Christmas Eve when my grandmother was still alive (she was Hispanic, and they don't really do cured ham or whatever). It didn't prevent us from also enjoying mashed potatoes, or singing Christmas carols in English, or whatever. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, as the American saying goes.
I do not like how this thread has evolved in some posts into Egyptians versus some sort of nameless, amorphous blob known as "the Americans" who all stuff their faces at any given opportunity and represent all the evil inherent in the choices that YOU choose to make as Copts.
I fasted with you during the three day fast after the incident at Maspero. And I do so every Wednesday and Friday, as well. I come to liturgy on time, I pray from the Agpeya (in English AND in Coptic), and I am an American citizen, born and raised here. Thanks to the Christian love and support of the good Coptic people here in Albuquerque, I see no contradiction between being an American and saying proudly that the Coptic Orthodox church is my church, in that it is within this faith that I have chosen to live my life, as a Christian who is also, by accident of birth, an American.
Think before you write things.
i have also met some kind, exciting, tri-lingual brave americans.
as i said, my first thansgiving was in pakistan. i have also celebrated with americans in eastern europe.
americans are cool. they just talk funny.
;)
:P
;)
What's that? Not all British people sound like that? HMMMM.... ;)
A very fun website, to accompany a very interesting documentary I saw some years ago: Do you speak American?
The quote (attributed to Churchill) that England and America are two nations divided by a common language is so true! You should embrace it, TITL.
I was not speaking of American culture per se. I was speaking of culture vs. Orthodoxy as Christ illustrated in John 17. "They are not of the world", as I define it, means anything culturally motivated that is against Orthodoxy. It just so happens that the majority of Americans and Canadians celebrate Thanksgiving in a non-Orthodox manner. This does not mean that everything American is anti-Orthodoxy. But certain culturally motivated behavior is. This in itself doesn't fully define American culture either. There is a fine line here. I'm sorry I didn't clarify. I was speaking of American behavior that is contra-Orthodoxy. And because of social peer pressure, Orthodox Christians (not just Coptic) are beginning to give in to frivolity and adopt foreign customs instead of staying true to their conservative nature. This is more a judgment on "liberal" Orthodox Christians than a judgment on evil America cultural behavior.
Does that make sense?
George
PS. Everyone is looking for love in the Church. It's not simply about universal understanding people who are different. We are called to sacrifice everything for you. This is love. This is what you should expect from the Orthodox Church.