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My friends are leaving the Coptic Church
Hi,
I have friends that are leaving the COC. They are extremely Orthodox in their personalities and love the faith, but they feel they have NO place in the Coptic Orthodox Church as NON-Egyptians.
I would agree with you that perhaps the Coptic Church in Egypt is indeed more spiritual, or the life of a Christian in Egypt may be richer than that of someone living outside Egypt - that is true. I do tend to think that what unites us in the Coptic Orthodox Church OUTSIDE of Egypt is Egypt, not necessarily Christ. Its not a fraternity of spirituality that you may find in a Coptic Community outside Egypt, but perhaps one that involves solidarity with Egypt.
The Coptic Orthodox Church has unwittingly focused on Egyptians - and evangelised to Egyptians. It hasn't really reached out to people in general, especially in the Diaspora. I can understand that it CANNOT evangelize in Egypt, but even in European countries, it doesnt even bother to attract anyone OTHER THAN Egyptians.
So what's my point? Well, if you live outside Egypt and go to a Coptic Church where there is NO fraternity, this is a very dead spiritual life. The reason is that HAYAT IL SHARIKA (life of sharing or fraternity) is very important.
I do not find that the Coptic Orthodox Church, OUTSIDE EGYPT, has any sort of fraternity whatsoever (IN ANY CHURCH I've BEEN TO OUTSIDE EGYPT). It indeed has found itself (The COC) as a place where Egyptians who are Christians can somewhat get together and reminice about Egypt. Catholics in France do not go to the Catholic Church to speak French, or mix with other French nationals. Do they?
Unfortunately, just this month, I witnessed (and I even tried to persuade) others NOT to leave the Coptic Orthodox Church, who were so sad that because they are not Egyptian, felt they had no place in the Coptic Church. They were looking for spiritual fraternities and could only find a nationalistic presence in the Church that demanded one either appreciates Egypt and speaks arabic, or is basically alienated.
At first, I was dubious over whether they should leave because they felt alienated for NOT being Egyptian and for not speaking Arabic; but after much thought, it did occur to me that the Church is indeed at fault here. If the congregation insists on speaking Arabic (even during the sermons) and there is no spiritual fellowship either (NON ARABIC) then these people are going to be more alienated. What's the point of having "THE CORRECT FAITH" if you are the ONLY PERSON in a country who has the correct faith?? What's the point?
Its pointless.
I would say fellowship is quite important indeed. When the Holy Spirit descended on the Disciples, they were filled with strength and empowered to preach the Gospel. Despite this empowerment, this Grace, they were not deprived of the fellowship of one another. They often prayed together, and this unity of prayer was clearly mentioned.
Indeed, on the day of the pentecost itself, it says CLEARLY in the Bible that the disciples were in the upper room TOGETHER ("UNITED IN PRAYER").
In the Coptic Orthodox Church, have you EVER been "United in Prayer" with anyone?
I've been united in Birthday Parties, weddings, feasts, football matches, inter-church sports events... but never prayer. My Coptic friends have never been into prayer. They've done the tasbeha, but never understood it.
What bothers me about the COC is that the Holy Liturgy starts at 9 AM, and finishes around 12 PM.
During this time, if you follow the liturgy, you pray for the following issues:
* The oblations and those who offered them
* The peace of the One Holy Catholic Church
* The priests/the deacons and subdeacons
* The commemoration of the Saints
* The Pope and the Bishops that God preserves their life
* The raising for the waters of this year that Christ raises them up to their measure.
* Some smart alec may even sing Pinishti JUST IN CASE a saint had been forgotten.
We've spent 3 hours in the Coptic Church liturgy praying for everything and everyone EXCEPT FOR OURSELVES!
What's the point of praying for the peace of the world when we are not at peace with ourselves and others?
What's the point of praying for the Pope when He is already a saint - what about us who are far and distant from God, who are living in darkness?? When do we pray for this?
The deacon ASKS us to pray for the above issues - we CANNOT just go off and start praying individually.
So the question remains - when do we have the TIME or CHANCE even, to ask God for help in our lives???
The answer is clear: there has to be private prayer time. Now, you can all say that this is something you should do in your own private life, but IF THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES had fellowship and they prayed for one another, then SURELY this would be important for us also? SURELY (!!) when Christ said that if 2 or more gathered in my Name that I am amongst them indicates that Christ WELCOMES fellowship in prayer.
WE HAVE NO FELLOWSHIP in the COC!!
Hence, is it better to have the CORRECT faith and NO fellowship, or to have FELLOWSHIP and the understanding of the CORRECT FAITH??
I cannot say that whilst I was in the COC that I had ANY good Christian friends. I had friends that used to go to strip bars after the vespers. I had friends that used to go to bars and clubs. I had friends that used to smoke... This was all in the COC. This is the fellowship I had from Sunday School.
Is this right??
Or is it better to go to the Catholic Church to seek fellowship KNOWING the right faith? Because, my point of view is this.
The differences in dogmas between us and them is REALLY open for debate.
We believe, for example, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father THROUGH the son. They believe that He proceeds FROM the Son. There is a difference, but the path from "FROM" to the destination "THROUGH" is not so difficult.
When I am in the Coptic Orthodox Church, DO I HONESTLY understand theology THAT well to even know the difference??
What do I understand exactly??? What am I taught that is basic? I am taught that we are saved by grace, and CONTINUALLY being saved by God's Grace that we receive THROUGH engagement of the sacraments. That's it. Do the Catholics have the same concept? Yes!!
They do. But they also have a fraternity. What unites them together isn't a national identity.
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT EGYPT. Egypt can go to hell for all I care, I dont even like the country, nor the people. I find them problematic and troublesome, and their expression of the Christian faith OUTSIDE of Egypt is greatly influenced by Islam. Indeed, we are now exporters of an Islamized Christianity, not an Orthodox one.
I remember entering into a conversation with a young Egyptian man living outside Egypt about the revolution happening there. He said to me :"Believe me, I love Egypt MORE than Jesus".
I appreciate his honesty, but if the Church is filled with such like minded people, (WHICH IT IS!!) then what is the spirit binding us in the Church? Is it a fellowship that encourages others to seek and live in holiness and purity of heart?!!!!!! NO!!! ITS NOT!!!!!
But does this idiot have the Correct faith?? YES! HE DOES!!!
After reflecting on all this, I HAVE NOTHING TO TELL THEM!! I agree with them. I think they should leave, or am I wrong??
I have friends that are leaving the COC. They are extremely Orthodox in their personalities and love the faith, but they feel they have NO place in the Coptic Orthodox Church as NON-Egyptians.
I would agree with you that perhaps the Coptic Church in Egypt is indeed more spiritual, or the life of a Christian in Egypt may be richer than that of someone living outside Egypt - that is true. I do tend to think that what unites us in the Coptic Orthodox Church OUTSIDE of Egypt is Egypt, not necessarily Christ. Its not a fraternity of spirituality that you may find in a Coptic Community outside Egypt, but perhaps one that involves solidarity with Egypt.
The Coptic Orthodox Church has unwittingly focused on Egyptians - and evangelised to Egyptians. It hasn't really reached out to people in general, especially in the Diaspora. I can understand that it CANNOT evangelize in Egypt, but even in European countries, it doesnt even bother to attract anyone OTHER THAN Egyptians.
So what's my point? Well, if you live outside Egypt and go to a Coptic Church where there is NO fraternity, this is a very dead spiritual life. The reason is that HAYAT IL SHARIKA (life of sharing or fraternity) is very important.
I do not find that the Coptic Orthodox Church, OUTSIDE EGYPT, has any sort of fraternity whatsoever (IN ANY CHURCH I've BEEN TO OUTSIDE EGYPT). It indeed has found itself (The COC) as a place where Egyptians who are Christians can somewhat get together and reminice about Egypt. Catholics in France do not go to the Catholic Church to speak French, or mix with other French nationals. Do they?
Unfortunately, just this month, I witnessed (and I even tried to persuade) others NOT to leave the Coptic Orthodox Church, who were so sad that because they are not Egyptian, felt they had no place in the Coptic Church. They were looking for spiritual fraternities and could only find a nationalistic presence in the Church that demanded one either appreciates Egypt and speaks arabic, or is basically alienated.
At first, I was dubious over whether they should leave because they felt alienated for NOT being Egyptian and for not speaking Arabic; but after much thought, it did occur to me that the Church is indeed at fault here. If the congregation insists on speaking Arabic (even during the sermons) and there is no spiritual fellowship either (NON ARABIC) then these people are going to be more alienated. What's the point of having "THE CORRECT FAITH" if you are the ONLY PERSON in a country who has the correct faith?? What's the point?
Its pointless.
I would say fellowship is quite important indeed. When the Holy Spirit descended on the Disciples, they were filled with strength and empowered to preach the Gospel. Despite this empowerment, this Grace, they were not deprived of the fellowship of one another. They often prayed together, and this unity of prayer was clearly mentioned.
Indeed, on the day of the pentecost itself, it says CLEARLY in the Bible that the disciples were in the upper room TOGETHER ("UNITED IN PRAYER").
In the Coptic Orthodox Church, have you EVER been "United in Prayer" with anyone?
I've been united in Birthday Parties, weddings, feasts, football matches, inter-church sports events... but never prayer. My Coptic friends have never been into prayer. They've done the tasbeha, but never understood it.
What bothers me about the COC is that the Holy Liturgy starts at 9 AM, and finishes around 12 PM.
During this time, if you follow the liturgy, you pray for the following issues:
* The oblations and those who offered them
* The peace of the One Holy Catholic Church
* The priests/the deacons and subdeacons
* The commemoration of the Saints
* The Pope and the Bishops that God preserves their life
* The raising for the waters of this year that Christ raises them up to their measure.
* Some smart alec may even sing Pinishti JUST IN CASE a saint had been forgotten.
We've spent 3 hours in the Coptic Church liturgy praying for everything and everyone EXCEPT FOR OURSELVES!
What's the point of praying for the peace of the world when we are not at peace with ourselves and others?
What's the point of praying for the Pope when He is already a saint - what about us who are far and distant from God, who are living in darkness?? When do we pray for this?
The deacon ASKS us to pray for the above issues - we CANNOT just go off and start praying individually.
So the question remains - when do we have the TIME or CHANCE even, to ask God for help in our lives???
The answer is clear: there has to be private prayer time. Now, you can all say that this is something you should do in your own private life, but IF THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES had fellowship and they prayed for one another, then SURELY this would be important for us also? SURELY (!!) when Christ said that if 2 or more gathered in my Name that I am amongst them indicates that Christ WELCOMES fellowship in prayer.
WE HAVE NO FELLOWSHIP in the COC!!
Hence, is it better to have the CORRECT faith and NO fellowship, or to have FELLOWSHIP and the understanding of the CORRECT FAITH??
I cannot say that whilst I was in the COC that I had ANY good Christian friends. I had friends that used to go to strip bars after the vespers. I had friends that used to go to bars and clubs. I had friends that used to smoke... This was all in the COC. This is the fellowship I had from Sunday School.
Is this right??
Or is it better to go to the Catholic Church to seek fellowship KNOWING the right faith? Because, my point of view is this.
The differences in dogmas between us and them is REALLY open for debate.
We believe, for example, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father THROUGH the son. They believe that He proceeds FROM the Son. There is a difference, but the path from "FROM" to the destination "THROUGH" is not so difficult.
When I am in the Coptic Orthodox Church, DO I HONESTLY understand theology THAT well to even know the difference??
What do I understand exactly??? What am I taught that is basic? I am taught that we are saved by grace, and CONTINUALLY being saved by God's Grace that we receive THROUGH engagement of the sacraments. That's it. Do the Catholics have the same concept? Yes!!
They do. But they also have a fraternity. What unites them together isn't a national identity.
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT EGYPT. Egypt can go to hell for all I care, I dont even like the country, nor the people. I find them problematic and troublesome, and their expression of the Christian faith OUTSIDE of Egypt is greatly influenced by Islam. Indeed, we are now exporters of an Islamized Christianity, not an Orthodox one.
I remember entering into a conversation with a young Egyptian man living outside Egypt about the revolution happening there. He said to me :"Believe me, I love Egypt MORE than Jesus".
I appreciate his honesty, but if the Church is filled with such like minded people, (WHICH IT IS!!) then what is the spirit binding us in the Church? Is it a fellowship that encourages others to seek and live in holiness and purity of heart?!!!!!! NO!!! ITS NOT!!!!!
But does this idiot have the Correct faith?? YES! HE DOES!!!
After reflecting on all this, I HAVE NOTHING TO TELL THEM!! I agree with them. I think they should leave, or am I wrong??
Comments
We have enough complainers in the church.
You want to see some more fellowship; you want to see unity; you want to see evangelism - do something about it.
We have enough complainers in the church.
Actually, I said that to them, but as I said, they do not feel welcomed or part of the Coptic Church as they are NON Egyptian and non arabic speaking.
I cannot change that. Its how our Church is.
I am not sure what denomination they will change to in fact, I was only giving the Catholic Church as an example.
At its core, this is an issue that requires great humility.
It's easy to blame the church, people, etc. - but most of the time the problem lies within. I mean you cannot expect the people to ignore their culture when praying, giving sermons, etc. How do you think people would feel if after the bombing of the Coptic Church in Egypt the priest never mentioned it? Should the priest show his concern, or not speak about it because it doesn't affect a few members of the church? If those few were TRUE MEMBERS having TRUE FELLOWSHIP with the rest of the people, they would share in their pain. . .
I hope it works out with your friends.
"The Multicultural Church" with Fr. Pishoy Salama
This video is a bit longer than the average You Tube video (37:32), but worth listening to attentively and thinking about. I'd like to read your perspective on it.
In all replies to deacon's prayers we say "Lord have mercy". The meaning here is not "Lord have mercy on the peace of the world, or those who offered oblations, or through whom", but the complete meaning is "LORD HAVE MERCY ON US". Please pay close attention, and edify others. In addition, there is a prayer were we say what? "Have mercy on us O God The Pantocrator". When the priest says "those for whom (or on behalf of whom) they were offered" it's about the congregation. Also after the Assembly of saints we say "May their holy blessings be with us all amen". Then we say in the Liturgy of the word: Through the intercessions/prayers of ..., Lord forgive us our sins.
We pray for ourselves all the time as you can see. The deacon urges congregation to pray for themselves, and the priests and the congregation as well. Just please be more meticulous in addressing issues with others especially when it has to do with the Copts and foreigners...
Oujai qen `P[C
do yr friends want to send me pm?
get them to register here if they want to 'chat' with a copt who was not born egyptian.
i was going to say 'non-egyptian' but that is no longer true!
;)
If you do not know about something, do not make a general statement. We have lot of evangelical activities in Australia, the United States, Japan, Bangaladesh, Mexico, Brazi, Boulivia and Africa.
Hi,
I have friends that are leaving the COC. They are extremely Orthodox in their personalities and love the faith, but they feel they have NO place in the Coptic Orthodox Church as NON-Egyptians.
I would agree with you that perhaps the Coptic Church in Egypt is indeed more spiritual, or the life of a Christian in Egypt may be richer than that of someone living outside Egypt - that is true. I do tend to think that what unites us in the Coptic Orthodox Church OUTSIDE of Egypt is Egypt, not necessarily Christ. Its not a fraternity of spirituality that you may find in a Coptic Community outside Egypt, but perhaps one that involves solidarity with Egypt.
The Coptic Orthodox Church has unwittingly focused on Egyptians - and evangelised to Egyptians. It hasn't really reached out to people in general, especially in the Diaspora. I can understand that it CANNOT evangelize in Egypt, but even in European countries, it doesnt even bother to attract anyone OTHER THAN Egyptians.
So what's my point? Well, if you live outside Egypt and go to a Coptic Church where there is NO fraternity, this is a very dead spiritual life. The reason is that HAYAT IL SHARIKA (life of sharing or fraternity) is very important.
I do not find that the Coptic Orthodox Church, OUTSIDE EGYPT, has any sort of fraternity whatsoever (IN ANY CHURCH I've BEEN TO OUTSIDE EGYPT). It indeed has found itself (The COC) as a place where Egyptians who are Christians can somewhat get together and reminice about Egypt. Catholics in France do not go to the Catholic Church to speak French, or mix with other French nationals. Do they?
Unfortunately, just this month, I witnessed (and I even tried to persuade) others NOT to leave the Coptic Orthodox Church, who were so sad that because they are not Egyptian, felt they had no place in the Coptic Church. They were looking for spiritual fraternities and could only find a nationalistic presence in the Church that demanded one either appreciates Egypt and speaks arabic, or is basically alienated.
At first, I was dubious over whether they should leave because they felt alienated for NOT being Egyptian and for not speaking Arabic; but after much thought, it did occur to me that the Church is indeed at fault here. If the congregation insists on speaking Arabic (even during the sermons) and there is no spiritual fellowship either (NON ARABIC) then these people are going to be more alienated. What's the point of having "THE CORRECT FAITH" if you are the ONLY PERSON in a country who has the correct faith?? What's the point?
Its pointless.
I would say fellowship is quite important indeed. When the Holy Spirit descended on the Disciples, they were filled with strength and empowered to preach the Gospel. Despite this empowerment, this Grace, they were not deprived of the fellowship of one another. They often prayed together, and this unity of prayer was clearly mentioned.
Indeed, on the day of the pentecost itself, it says CLEARLY in the Bible that the disciples were in the upper room TOGETHER ("UNITED IN PRAYER").
In the Coptic Orthodox Church, have you EVER been "United in Prayer" with anyone?
I've been united in Birthday Parties, weddings, feasts, football matches, inter-church sports events... but never prayer. My Coptic friends have never been into prayer. They've done the tasbeha, but never understood it.
What bothers me about the COC is that the Holy Liturgy starts at 9 AM, and finishes around 12 PM.
During this time, if you follow the liturgy, you pray for the following issues:
* The oblations and those who offered them
* The peace of the One Holy Catholic Church
* The priests/the deacons and subdeacons
* The commemoration of the Saints
* The Pope and the Bishops that God preserves their life
* The raising for the waters of this year that Christ raises them up to their measure.
* Some smart alec may even sing Pinishti JUST IN CASE a saint had been forgotten.
We've spent 3 hours in the Coptic Church liturgy praying for everything and everyone EXCEPT FOR OURSELVES!
What's the point of praying for the peace of the world when we are not at peace with ourselves and others?
What's the point of praying for the Pope when He is already a saint - what about us who are far and distant from God, who are living in darkness?? When do we pray for this?
The deacon ASKS us to pray for the above issues - we CANNOT just go off and start praying individually.
So the question remains - when do we have the TIME or CHANCE even, to ask God for help in our lives???
The answer is clear: there has to be private prayer time. Now, you can all say that this is something you should do in your own private life, but IF THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES had fellowship and they prayed for one another, then SURELY this would be important for us also? SURELY (!!) when Christ said that if 2 or more gathered in my Name that I am amongst them indicates that Christ WELCOMES fellowship in prayer.
WE HAVE NO FELLOWSHIP in the COC!!
Hence, is it better to have the CORRECT faith and NO fellowship, or to have FELLOWSHIP and the understanding of the CORRECT FAITH??
I cannot say that whilst I was in the COC that I had ANY good Christian friends. I had friends that used to go to strip bars after the vespers. I had friends that used to go to bars and clubs. I had friends that used to smoke... This was all in the COC. This is the fellowship I had from Sunday School.
Is this right??
Or is it better to go to the Catholic Church to seek fellowship KNOWING the right faith? Because, my point of view is this.
The differences in dogmas between us and them is REALLY open for debate.
We believe, for example, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father THROUGH the son. They believe that He proceeds FROM the Son. There is a difference, but the path from "FROM" to the destination "THROUGH" is not so difficult.
When I am in the Coptic Orthodox Church, DO I HONESTLY understand theology THAT well to even know the difference??
What do I understand exactly??? What am I taught that is basic? I am taught that we are saved by grace, and CONTINUALLY being saved by God's Grace that we receive THROUGH engagement of the sacraments. That's it. Do the Catholics have the same concept? Yes!!
They do. But they also have a fraternity. What unites them together isn't a national identity.
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT EGYPT. Egypt can go to hell for all I care, I dont even like the country, nor the people. I find them problematic and troublesome, and their expression of the Christian faith OUTSIDE of Egypt is greatly influenced by Islam. Indeed, we are now exporters of an Islamized Christianity, not an Orthodox one.
I remember entering into a conversation with a young Egyptian man living outside Egypt about the revolution happening there. He said to me :"Believe me, I love Egypt MORE than Jesus".
I appreciate his honesty, but if the Church is filled with such like minded people, (WHICH IT IS!!) then what is the spirit binding us in the Church? Is it a fellowship that encourages others to seek and live in holiness and purity of heart?!!!!!! NO!!! ITS NOT!!!!!
But does this idiot have the Correct faith?? YES! HE DOES!!!
After reflecting on all this, I HAVE NOTHING TO TELL THEM!! I agree with them. I think they should leave, or am I wrong??
This all just sounds like you are whining. I hate people who complain they are so annoying. You don't go to church to meet people and be accepted by people, you go to talk to your Creator and worship Him.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11903.msg141805#msg141805 date=1311454385]
Hi,
I have friends that are leaving the COC. They are extremely Orthodox in their personalities and love the faith, but they feel they have NO place in the Coptic Orthodox Church as NON-Egyptians.
I would agree with you that perhaps the Coptic Church in Egypt is indeed more spiritual, or the life of a Christian in Egypt may be richer than that of someone living outside Egypt - that is true. I do tend to think that what unites us in the Coptic Orthodox Church OUTSIDE of Egypt is Egypt, not necessarily Christ. Its not a fraternity of spirituality that you may find in a Coptic Community outside Egypt, but perhaps one that involves solidarity with Egypt.
The Coptic Orthodox Church has unwittingly focused on Egyptians - and evangelised to Egyptians. It hasn't really reached out to people in general, especially in the Diaspora. I can understand that it CANNOT evangelize in Egypt, but even in European countries, it doesnt even bother to attract anyone OTHER THAN Egyptians.
So what's my point? Well, if you live outside Egypt and go to a Coptic Church where there is NO fraternity, this is a very dead spiritual life. The reason is that HAYAT IL SHARIKA (life of sharing or fraternity) is very important.
I do not find that the Coptic Orthodox Church, OUTSIDE EGYPT, has any sort of fraternity whatsoever (IN ANY CHURCH I've BEEN TO OUTSIDE EGYPT). It indeed has found itself (The COC) as a place where Egyptians who are Christians can somewhat get together and reminice about Egypt. Catholics in France do not go to the Catholic Church to speak French, or mix with other French nationals. Do they?
Unfortunately, just this month, I witnessed (and I even tried to persuade) others NOT to leave the Coptic Orthodox Church, who were so sad that because they are not Egyptian, felt they had no place in the Coptic Church. They were looking for spiritual fraternities and could only find a nationalistic presence in the Church that demanded one either appreciates Egypt and speaks arabic, or is basically alienated.
At first, I was dubious over whether they should leave because they felt alienated for NOT being Egyptian and for not speaking Arabic; but after much thought, it did occur to me that the Church is indeed at fault here. If the congregation insists on speaking Arabic (even during the sermons) and there is no spiritual fellowship either (NON ARABIC) then these people are going to be more alienated. What's the point of having "THE CORRECT FAITH" if you are the ONLY PERSON in a country who has the correct faith?? What's the point?
Its pointless.
I would say fellowship is quite important indeed. When the Holy Spirit descended on the Disciples, they were filled with strength and empowered to preach the Gospel. Despite this empowerment, this Grace, they were not deprived of the fellowship of one another. They often prayed together, and this unity of prayer was clearly mentioned.
Indeed, on the day of the pentecost itself, it says CLEARLY in the Bible that the disciples were in the upper room TOGETHER ("UNITED IN PRAYER").
In the Coptic Orthodox Church, have you EVER been "United in Prayer" with anyone?
I've been united in Birthday Parties, weddings, feasts, football matches, inter-church sports events... but never prayer. My Coptic friends have never been into prayer. They've done the tasbeha, but never understood it.
What bothers me about the COC is that the Holy Liturgy starts at 9 AM, and finishes around 12 PM.
During this time, if you follow the liturgy, you pray for the following issues:
* The oblations and those who offered them
* The peace of the One Holy Catholic Church
* The priests/the deacons and subdeacons
* The commemoration of the Saints
* The Pope and the Bishops that God preserves their life
* The raising for the waters of this year that Christ raises them up to their measure.
* Some smart alec may even sing Pinishti JUST IN CASE a saint had been forgotten.
We've spent 3 hours in the Coptic Church liturgy praying for everything and everyone EXCEPT FOR OURSELVES!
What's the point of praying for the peace of the world when we are not at peace with ourselves and others?
What's the point of praying for the Pope when He is already a saint - what about us who are far and distant from God, who are living in darkness?? When do we pray for this?
The deacon ASKS us to pray for the above issues - we CANNOT just go off and start praying individually.
So the question remains - when do we have the TIME or CHANCE even, to ask God for help in our lives???
The answer is clear: there has to be private prayer time. Now, you can all say that this is something you should do in your own private life, but IF THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES had fellowship and they prayed for one another, then SURELY this would be important for us also? SURELY (!!) when Christ said that if 2 or more gathered in my Name that I am amongst them indicates that Christ WELCOMES fellowship in prayer.
WE HAVE NO FELLOWSHIP in the COC!!
Hence, is it better to have the CORRECT faith and NO fellowship, or to have FELLOWSHIP and the understanding of the CORRECT FAITH??
I cannot say that whilst I was in the COC that I had ANY good Christian friends. I had friends that used to go to strip bars after the vespers. I had friends that used to go to bars and clubs. I had friends that used to smoke... This was all in the COC. This is the fellowship I had from Sunday School.
Is this right??
Or is it better to go to the Catholic Church to seek fellowship KNOWING the right faith? Because, my point of view is this.
The differences in dogmas between us and them is REALLY open for debate.
We believe, for example, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father THROUGH the son. They believe that He proceeds FROM the Son. There is a difference, but the path from "FROM" to the destination "THROUGH" is not so difficult.
When I am in the Coptic Orthodox Church, DO I HONESTLY understand theology THAT well to even know the difference??
What do I understand exactly??? What am I taught that is basic? I am taught that we are saved by grace, and CONTINUALLY being saved by God's Grace that we receive THROUGH engagement of the sacraments. That's it. Do the Catholics have the same concept? Yes!!
They do. But they also have a fraternity. What unites them together isn't a national identity.
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT EGYPT. Egypt can go to hell for all I care, I dont even like the country, nor the people. I find them problematic and troublesome, and their expression of the Christian faith OUTSIDE of Egypt is greatly influenced by Islam. Indeed, we are now exporters of an Islamized Christianity, not an Orthodox one.
I remember entering into a conversation with a young Egyptian man living outside Egypt about the revolution happening there. He said to me :"Believe me, I love Egypt MORE than Jesus".
I appreciate his honesty, but if the Church is filled with such like minded people, (WHICH IT IS!!) then what is the spirit binding us in the Church? Is it a fellowship that encourages others to seek and live in holiness and purity of heart?!!!!!! NO!!! ITS NOT!!!!!
But does this idiot have the Correct faith?? YES! HE DOES!!!
After reflecting on all this, I HAVE NOTHING TO TELL THEM!! I agree with them. I think they should leave, or am I wrong??
This all just sounds like you are whining. I hate people who complain they are so annoying. You don't go to church to meet people and be accepted by people, you go to talk to your Creator and worship Him.
I saw your videos on Youtube singing.. You make me sick. You sound like a cat that wasn't given milk.
I don't care about Egypt like I don't care about countries that I have no association with.
Dear Zoxsasi,
In all replies to deacon's prayers we say "Lord have mercy". The meaning here is not "Lord have mercy on the peace of the world, or those who offered oblations, or through whom", but the complete meaning is "LORD HAVE MERCY ON US". Please pay close attention, and edify others. In addition, there is a prayer were we say what? "Have mercy on us O God The Pantocrator". When the priest says "those for whom (or on behalf of whom) they were offered" it's about the congregation. Also after the Assembly of saints we say "May their holy blessings be with us all amen". Then we say in the Liturgy of the word: Through the intercessions/prayers of ..., Lord forgive us our sins.
We pray for ourselves all the time as you can see. The deacon urges congregation to pray for themselves, and the priests and the congregation as well. Just please be more meticulous in addressing issues with others especially when it has to do with the Copts and foreigners...
Oujai qen `P[C
Actually, I just paraphrased what my friends were feeling.
My 2 cents were that there is no time in the liturgy to focus on your own needs. That's all. But as for their concern, they feel that a fraternity is essential. I THINK (THINK!!) that they want to be monks who are not arabic.
THey are close to this... very hermitical in their behaviour.
Maybe they are asking a bit too much, not sure.
Geomike, a FRATERNITY is not something SO bad - Its what monks have!! If you understood this problem as if these people want to go to Church to SOCIALIZE, then you need to take a course in English before you post!!
THAT's the EXACT opposite. They find that there is TOO much socialism and not really any unity or commonality based on the teachings of Christ WITHIN the church.
It seems as a a pre-requisite (FOR THEM!) that you ought to speak arabic to have any sort of fraternity anyway.
In my former (Roman Catholic) church, there were Hispanics, white people, Asians, and Africans, and in the Coptic community I will be visiting in Albuquerque there are Egyptians, white people, and Ethiopians (no Hispanics until I get there). I don't see a huge difference in terms of the multicultural aspect. Everyone's from some culture and place...it's the shared faith that counts!
I saw your videos on Youtube singing.. You make me sick. You sound like a cat that wasn't given milk.
Very classy.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11903.msg141887#msg141887 date=1311583137]
I saw your videos on Youtube singing.. You make me sick. You sound like a cat that wasn't given milk.
Very classy.
Have you actually seen his videos?
He sings from his nose, he sounds awful. I want people to come to the Coptic Church, and if they hear his voice, they may not come.
Of course it makes me sick.
I remember I BEGGED a very VERY old friend of mine to come to Church with me after she had left the Church for 10 years. I picked her up and went to Church with her.
After 10 mins we both decided to leave. The head of the choir sounded like Geomike and it was SOO awful we couldn't pray, we couldn't concentrate, we couldn't think... we just left.
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11903.msg141896#msg141896 date=1311612192]
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11903.msg141887#msg141887 date=1311583137]
I saw your videos on Youtube singing.. You make me sick. You sound like a cat that wasn't given milk.
Very classy.
Have you actually seen his videos?
He sings from his nose, he sounds awful. I want people to come to the Coptic Church, and if they hear his voice, they may not come.
Of course it makes me sick.
I remember I BEGGED a very VERY old friend of mine to come to Church with me after she had left the Church for 10 years. I picked her up and went to Church with her.
After 10 mins we both decided to leave. The head of the choir sounded like Geomike and it was SOO awful we couldn't pray, we couldn't concentrate, we couldn't think... we just left.
Although I disagree with your approach to worship - which depends too much on others' performance - that is besides the point. Your comment has nothing to do with this thread. It was nothing but a personal attack.
On a side note: One can sometimes be frustrated with some of the "awful" sounding acolytes in the church, but one can also see something beautiful in this is as well. The beauty is that our church does not discriminate against those who are not gifted with a beautiful voice, but all are allowed to pray and sing to our Lord. Because as we know, it is not the sound of the voice that pierces the heart and leads to repentance but the beauty and depth of the words is what carries that power.
we love you, but when you moan a lot about our church it annoys us.
we love our church.
we know it's not perfect, but if it was we would spoil it by being there ourselves.
please help us to make it better with practical suggestions.
While this is a generalization, and it may sound like whining, it really is valid. To the best of my knowledge, there has been no field work in sociology and anthropology describing the social and religious dichotomy in the Coptic Church outside of Egypt. There has been plenty of work describing the social and political climate in Egypt. There has been some work on the history and social aspects of certain churches. But there is nothing talking about culture vs. spirituality. Sociologists, anthropologists and psychologists have studied the role of religion in the cultural framework of a society. But I don't think anything has been done for the Coptic Church.
Regardless of scientific research, there are some generalizations we can make based on past experiences. I know that in the NY area, certain churches were started, even though there is a Coptic church less than 5 miles away, because there was "too much English" in the older church or because they didn't like the priest in that church. I also know that non-Copts, mainly Greek and Russian Orthodox, observed that Copts do not generally associate with non-Copts. One Greek student at a seminary told me a joke once: There was a Jew, a Catholic and a Protestant who went to heaven. In heaven, the archangel gave them a tour of heaven. The Jew noticed some Jews who were in heaven which were Jews for Jesus. The Catholic and the Protestant noticed that every group had Catholic and Protestants in their group, except the Copts. The angel said that the Copts believe that only Copts will go to heaven. This wasn't meant to be a comedic joke. It was supposed to be an "eye-opener". I have also heard Catholic monks who went to Egypt only to return and say really bad things about Coptic laity; embarrassing things I don't want to repeat. All of these incidents point to a general trend that Copts are not friendly to non-Copts on a large scale. There are, of course, many converts in many Coptic Churches. But after 50 years in the United States and Canada, there really should be more cultural diversity in the Coptic Church, as we see in the Greek, Russian, Antiochian churches. On a side note, I think this anti-ecumenical problem is found in all Christian Churches from the Middle East. I think it has more to do with the Muslim-Christian stigmatization that holds us back from "socializing" with non-Copts.
Now let's look at spirituality. We live in a time where more and more people are complaining of long hymns. We live in a time where very few people actually read the Bible or the Agpeya. We live in a time where nearly unlimited knowledge is at our fingertips because of the internet, yet very few people know Coptic history, Coptic monasticism, Coptic language, Coptic piety, etc. There is a strong anti-intellectual movement among the Copts. We partially know the stories of a handful of our own saints, yet we know nothing of the majority. We would rather watch a movie about St George than to read his biography from Coptic sources. When a contemporary issue comes up, we discuss and formulate the "Church's view" yet we have no idea what the patristic fathers said. There are numerous conferences on Coptic culture, Coptic music, Coptic history, Coptic patristics in the US, Europe and Austrialia. Have we ever attended any conference that wasn't hosted in our local church? Have you ever traveled to attend any Christian conference? By show of cyber-hands, how many people have visited a Syrian Orthodox Church? Or an Indian Orthodox, or an Ethiopian Orthodox? And these our sister churches? How many have visited or spoken to a Greek priest, or Russian layperson? (by the way, I have not done most of this either. So all of this applies to me more than others.) (I feel like I'm becoming ilovesaintmark. This is a good thing.) We are isolated. Our standard of spirituality has gone down and down. In addition to lower spirituality, there is an increased feeling of cultralism. Nowadays, there has been a very high spike in feelings of Egyptian nationalism due to post-Mubarrak politics. The balance of culture vs. spirituality has definitely tipped the scale away from spirituality, intellectualism, ecumenism and service to culturalism, nationalism, social gatherings and feelings of entitlement.
All of this is nothing new. Anthropologists will certainly show us how there has always been a battle of culture vs. spirituality. It comes down to our priorities. Do we want an multi-cultral Coptic Church, or a Middle Eastern Coptic Church outside the middle east? It starts with personal choices.
Of course, inside the church most of the worship is in English, with only the tiniest bit in Slavonic. I realize that this varies a bit by individual church, but I am encouraged to find that the community I will be visiting in Albuquerque is made up of only six families, but represents among them three distinct nationalities, and worships approximately 75% of the time in English (the remainder is primarily in Coptic, with a little bit of Arabic).
It's not that I don't see a problem with the situation as Zoxsasi describes it. I do, however, wonder how fair it is to paint the entire church with the same brush. Could things be better? Certainly! Is the answer to making them better to purposely and loudly declare how much you don't care about Egypt? I don't think so. As I wrote earlier, millions of Orthodox Christians live there. The answer to cultural isolation or chauvinism is not to recreate it in an effort to fight against it in others.
This lady was passing by a Coptic Church during Easter and overheard the hymns being sung. She was indeed captivated by the hymns and so on, and started to weep.
ANyway, she spoke to the priest and wanted to learn more about our Church. The priest directed her to my mother - who is pretty good in explaining the Church. She used to come to our house to learn about the Bible. I taught her hymns whilst my mother read the Bible for her.
She decided to become Christian. By this time, she had made a LOT of friends in the Church. The Bible study lessons lasted ONE YEAR before her baptism. The day she got baptized, I can tell you, she was indeed made very welcome in the Church.
She was young, beautiful, calm, peaceful... a very interesting and elegant young lady.
THen something weird happened. The pope came to this Church and some kid asked her "Hey, what are you doing here... you are not Egyptian?" lol
Then a few more things happened (of a similar effect) and she left the Coptic Church (she became Catholic).
NOW I THOUGHT, AT THE TIME, THAT IT WAS SILLY TO LEAVE FOR THIS REASON.. OK!??
I REALLY DID!!
But looking back, and having grown up a bit, I cannot REALLY blame her. I've really begun to see her point of view. If we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, then you CANNOT blame someone for expecting the relationships we have with one another IN the Church to be based on Christ, NOT EGYPT!!
There is a problem here - what about marriage? What about what happens AFTER the Church? What kind of life is there for anyone who is not Egyptian? Its very serious.
The worshiping God part of the Coptic life is truly a good thing as we worship God in the True Faith. But - if someone DOES become Christian for the sake of Christ, then they will want some kind of fraternity. Its VERY important, and I HAVE YET to see a Church outside Egypt (a Coptic Church, that is) that actually has a spiritual atmosphere OUTSIDE the mass.
Like I said, the atmosphere in our Church is FUN. Its just pure fun. But it has nothing to do with Christ. Its not Christ-centric at all.
Again, how important is this? Well, it is indeed very important, and here's why:
For me, a Church is a place where one can find healing. Healing from their sins. We have to lead each other to holiness. Good friends are important that pray for you and help you grow spiritually. But the kind of friends you can expect to have in the COC, as a NON Egyptian is basically ZERO.
When the atmosphere becomes more of a Club than it does a Community, this is very destructive.
Before purchasing stevenage, there was a HUGE debate in the Church - whether we make it a monastery, a Church, or a Club.
MANY MANY people wanted it to be a Club. Apparently, there's a similar thing in Sudan where they have a Coptic Club. Its like a country club, but for Coptic Christians.
I'm not at all putting into question the spirituality of Copts, or whether they love God or not. Not at all. But, as I said, there seems to be more of a Club atmosphere than of a spiritual one.
Now, if you think I'm still generalizing, then please consider that there are people leaving the Church for this reason. I would kindly ask you to focus on the reason they are leaving than to focus on me. You all seem to do that. I get attacked SO MUCH for just highlighting a problem.
PERSOANLLY, I still believe the COPTIC CHURCH (with its faults) is still better than the Catholic Church - where they may not have the problems we have.
I think it was a HUGE MISTAKE calling the British Orthodox Church, the BRITISH orthodox Church. I felt that we have had ENOUGH of a nationalistic presence within the Coptic Church as it is!!!!
We just ought to have an Oriental Orthodox Church - PERIOD!
My arabic improved whilst going to CHurch! That shouldn't happen. Why?? Why is it i live outside Egypt and yet , thanks to my Church, my arabic has improved. What about my spirituality? What about the fraternity? I cannot say I have had ANY good memories or good Christian friends in the Coptic Church. They were all Egyptians who happened to be Christian.
Employing a monk who doesn't speak a WORD of French / English/ Anything .. only arabic to serve in Europe is a huge statement. You are basically saying that you care ONLY about Egyptians.
Is this right??
Do your priests actually speak proper English?? or any other language where you may be living outside Egypt?? Ours do not.
Only a small percentage are fluent in the language of the host country. This is a huge shame.
If someone has NOTHING to do with Egypt, what kind of message is the Church giving these people??? What signals is it sending to these people that have chosen oriental orthodoxy who are living outside of Egypt??
If we have the TRUE faith, then should we be calling ourselves the Church of Egypt? Or should we be calling ourselves the Oriental Orthodox Apostolic Church?
Even when there was one denomination during the first 5 centuries, the Churches were called by their local cities: Church of Antioch, Church of Alexandria. Church of Rome, ....
Also. in the book of Revelations, Christ Himself called the Churches by the city they belonged too.
1) The atmosphere in Zoxsasi's church being not Christ-centered enough for him;
and
2) The intersection of nationality/ethnicity and religion.
I know from personal experience that (1) is not the problem of Orthodox churches only, as that problem is also present in many churches as the relative spiritual level of the people in them has rises and falls (e.g., maybe the young people won't show up unless we _____). On this account, I would guess that the Orthodox churches deal with this much better on the whole than non-Orthodox churches do. For instance, I have never seen any sort of debased "Youth Liturgy" present in any Orthodox church comparable to what goes on at Catholic "Youth Masses" with their ridiculous popular music and prancing around.
In realistic terms, the church is a place for all of us to come together to worship God. If the liturgy is being taken seriously and approached in a reverent and spiritually mature manner (as you seem to admit it is), then anything outside of that activity is, shall we say, extra. I realize that fellowship is important and that church activities outside of liturgy proper should also be Christ-focused, but these are also one area that you, the layperson, can influence if you are so dissatisfied with it. Share your ideas for better, more inclusive activities with your priest. Maybe he'll have some suggestions or be able to offer other help.
Regarding (2), what does it tell you that so much of your criticism has to do with language proficiency? Surely Egyptians aren't the only ones who are culturally sensitive! :) For the life of me I cannot understand why you would be upset that your Arabic has gotten better, though I understand and agree with your point about sending French-speaking clergy to a French-speaking area. With that in mind, has it ever crossed your mind to somehow facilitate this? If you are a native speaker of French, why not volunteer yourself to teach or organize some classes (with the approval of the necessary church authorities, of course), so that everyone who wants to can learn? Even if that's just 2 or 3 people at first, it certainly can't be a bad thing to have everyone understanding each other a little better.
they are just as culturally inclined as any Copt you're likely to meet.
Jeremy, don't misunderstand me. Cultural experience is integrally involved with the Christian experience. I would not be surprised that all other churches are just as culturally inclined. The issue is whether a particular Christian denomination places culture over spirituality; not separating culture from spirituality. This is kind of what I'm getting at. Christian churches are supposed to be multi-cultural. But even multi-cultural and multi-lingual societies throughout history found a way to communicate and live in a such a way that everyone in the community grew together - especially spiritually. No it's not fair. But we don't have any specific data to evaluate the situation in a local church vs. the Coptic Church in general. We don't have anything better than general observations. Hopefully the situation will change. Agreed. Hence why I said I partially agree with Zoxasi.
Jeremy, I gave a few practical, solid examples of a decline in spirituality. Have you noticed similar situations in the Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox Churches? Specifically anti-ecumenical, anti-intellectualism, and non-consistent practices of Bible reading, Agpeya (or similar prayer books)?
Jeremy, don't misunderstand me. Cultural experience is integrally involved with the Christian experience. I would not be surprised that all other churches are just as culturally inclined. The issue is whether a particular Christian denomination places culture over spirituality; not separating culture from spirituality.
I understand. I guess I question how much that is really possible. Many different cultures share the same spirituality (i.e., Syrians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians are all different from each other, but the shared faith is what matters), but obviously express it differently. The question for the church is how to do that in a way that is integrated into the culture of the new land when not even all of its members are so integrated. Honestly I do not know the answer to that. I would look to Father Peter's experience in the British Orthodox Church as one example, and the OCA as another (if my local OCA parish is anything to go by, it's mostly Protestant and Catholic converts and enjoys a very energetic, high spiritual level). Yes, yes. My only point in bringing that story up is to show that it is just as ethnic/cultural as the Copts or other OO are, but obviously this isn't seen by the church members (who, again, are mostly converts) as something negative, unlike Zoxsasi's experience with the Copts. I don't really know why this is. From my personal experiences with both, I had formed the impression that the OO were somewhat more open-minded than the cradle EO I've known, though maybe this was because my experience with OO is with Armenians and Ethiopians around my own age, not with Copts. Not so much in the EO, because as I wrote the EO around me are mostly converts. Even though I am living (for one more week...) in the historical southernmost tip of the Russian empire, the (ethnic) Russian Orthodox population around here is quite small these days. Being mostly converts, the local OCA is very energetic. From the outsider's perspective, it does not seem to be as static as the local Catholic churches.
As far Catholic churches are concerned, yes, I have seen solid examples of a decline in spirituality. I guess some could be similar to your examples, in that people are also ignorant of Western/Latin Christian history. But honestly I think Catholic churches should be considered on a different level entirely, as the health of the Latin church long ago stopped being measurable in terms of its monasticism (which, while aesthetically beautiful when you can find it, is moribund), asceticism, or any other means by which you might measure the health of an Orthodox Church. Which is not to say that it is universally bad, but that there is no consistency from one place to the next.
Dzheremi's point is indeed valid. thanks. Let's face it, no matter which orthodox church you go to, its going to be nationalistic.
Like i said, i would still recommend for them the COC...
i think our priest needs to speak the language of the country.. that's their main problem.
These people want the entire Orthodox package: Sacraments, FoC, Spiritual Director, Spiritual Fellowship. That's what they signed up for.
They are NOT getting an FoC, nor a DoS. What's the point? If the priest cannot communicate with them?
Indeed, I told them this. I said: what is the point of going to the Armenian Orthodox Church when you don't speak Armenian!?? You'll have the same problem!!
I cannot believe, for the life of me, that we have a faith where we are pushing people to learn arabic in order to benefit in the fullness of the Christian Faith. THAT'S STUPID, but that's ultimately what is going on.
Do you think our priest speaks Coptic??? He even told me that he doesn't understand coptic... he speaks Arabic only.
Religion influences culture and culture influences the way people respond to religion. Churches by definition are ethnic, yet faith is multicultural.
This is evident throughout the Bible and the Church history.
I will give a brief example: the Coptic hymns are not suitable for the Western culture just as the Western music is not suitable for the Eastern worship. The Coptic Church did not force its culture to the other African Churches (Eritrea, Ethiopia, ...)
Copts can evangelize their faith and walk the footsteps of their Father Saint Mark. However, they cannot force their culture on others.
The ideal way is to have ethnic Churches so that people of the same culture and language can worship with one spirit. We see this happening in Africa, India, And Britain where the Copts converts have their own rites and way of worship. They share the same faith yet worship according to their own different backgrounds.
This is the richness of Christianity that God allows for people to express their feelings toward him instead of imposing a standard way, like Islam, that everyone must follow.