vernacular vs liturgical languages

henrik.hank

Nofri!
In the Roman Catholic Church there is people who don't like when Mass is said in vernscular. It must be in Latin.
I don't know about the Coptic Orthodox situation. What does Copts and the Coptic Orthodox Church think about praying in vernacular vs Coptic and Greek?

ilovesaintmark

I hate English in the Liturgy.

mabsoota

hi, nofri  :)
don't take ilovesaintmark's comments 100% seriously!
we actually enjoy praising God with understanding.

at the time of the arab invasion of egypt, some of the people who were heard speaking coptic had their tongues cut out. they were defending the Christian faith, not just the language (people had to change their faith and their language or suffer terribly).
so we remember them by helping to preserve their beautiful language, but even more by preserving their most precious strong faith.

anba bola

There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. -1 Corinthians 14:10-19

There are (as Mabsoota mentioned) very good reasons to keep Coptic and Greek in the liturgy, but we also have to make sure that people understand the liturgy. This means there should be a balance of the two, and the parish Priest can figure out the best balance for the congregation. In certain churches you can pray 50-50 because the congregation knows the liturgy well and know what everything means, while in others which have more converts, the vernacular has to be more dominant. The situation differs from church to church so the Priest makes the decision (and they make the right one 99.9% of the time in my experience  :)).

dzheremi

I heard from the representative of the Coptic community in Albuquerque the other day, who told me that their liturgy is roughly 80% English and 20% Arabic and Coptic. The congregation, such that it is (7 families, meeting in a private home), is mixed, with Americans, Egyptians, and Ethiopians attending. So it seems sensible to me that the liturgy would be mixed too. This is something of a different issue than the complaining about Coptic that I've sometimes taken a pretty hard line against on this forum. I'm a simpleton, of course, but I figure it is proper for Copts to keep Coptic because they're Copts, where other people can keep their own languages appropriate to their own history. As Mabsoota rightly puts it, the emphasis is on the faith which transcends language. Preserving the language is more a matter of preserving the history which is important to the Church as a whole. It shouldn't be lost, but neither should be an albatross, hung around the necks of the people and dragging them down. I am of the opinion that it isn't an "either/or" issue, but of course others disagree. So long as we're all orthodox (I know, I know...me first, right? Soon, my friends! ;D), I don't really mind.

cildara

[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11702.msg140181#msg140181 date=1308936085]
I hate English in the Liturgy.


I hate any language in the Liturgy other than Coptic.

peterfarrington

Why?

cildara

Responding to the comment about English above. I did not mean it seriously.

Holmes

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Viva le vernacular!

ilovesaintmark

My Dear Father,

It just sounds terrible in all aspects of the constructs.
The translations--inadequate.
Singing--Middle Eastern with english words.

I don't have anything against the English Language or the English.

I just don't like it in the Liturgy.

I accept it for the sake of others (and their needs).

I was just posing my own personal preference.  It's not like I would walk out of the church.

I like Armenian Badarak in Armenian (despite me being Coptic).  When I hear (in rare circumstances) English renderings
in the Badarak, I find it difficult to hear.

I know that there is a generation that needs the English, and I'm happy that they participate.

Regardless, I know that God only speaks in Coptic (joke).  The only time that God speaks in English is when it is High Tea.

cildara

[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=11702.msg140201#msg140201 date=1308959205]
My Dear Father,

It just sounds terrible in all aspects of the constructs.
The translations--inadequate.
Singing--Middle Eastern with english words.

I don't have anything against the English Language or the English.

I just don't like it in the Liturgy.

I accept it for the sake of others (and their needs).

I was just posing my own personal preference.  It's not like I would walk out of the church.

I like Armenian Badarak in Armenian (despite me being Coptic).  When I hear (in rare circumstances) English renderings
in the Badarak, I find it difficult to hear.

I know that there is a generation that needs the English, and I'm happy that they participate.

Regardless, I know that God only speaks in Coptic (joke).  The only time that God speaks in English is when it is High Tea.


Well stated.  It is a difficult issue for all of the Oriental Churches at the moment. I am interested in why you think the translations are inadequate. How might they be improved?

mabsoota

ask a native english speaker (or dutch or whatever) to help you!
it can be someone born in the foreign country but with egyptian parents IF their english is really good.

or... do lots of evangelism to get plenty of english speakers to choose from  ;)

dzheremi

I can sort of understand where ILSM is coming from. I have a small collection of English-language Coptic hymns, and they do sound funny. Not necessarily bad, but you can tell (if you're a native English-speaker, like me) that they're trying to fit English into some modes/measures that it doesn't usually or easily fit into. There is a reason why melisma has not historically been a defining feature of English-language singing outside of very particular contexts or subgenres (African American music, for instance), just as there is a reason why "scat-singing" (this) has not replaced 'ataba or mawwal or what have you in Arabic music. And that reason is the same for both: It sounds funny.

I have heard some very good examples of Coptic hymns in English (e.g., the Midnight Praises by the monks of St. Antony's Monastery in California), but I don't know why...many direct translations just seem clunky or otherwise awkward. I think Mabsoota's right; You need native ___ speakers if you're going to attempt such things.

CopticFighter

at the time of the arab invasion of egypt, some of the people who were heard speaking coptic had their tongues cut out.

The only 2 things that can be changed in the Church r the time of day/day of the week services r 2 b done, and the language. Im in an American Church, which is lucky 2 have 2 seperate liturgies, coptic+arabic or coptic+english. I, though, prefer coptic. It just sounds nicer.

christiangirl

[shadow=red,left]Yes, coptic sounds better than english, but also it is good that the coptic orthodox churches use arabic for young people to learn the language.  It wouldn't matter what language you speak, just as long as you celebrate the mass at least once a week.[/shadow]