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Do Muslims go to Heaven?
Hi,
I need some advice, but I wanted to post it in this section because its to do with the official position of the Church.
There's a muslim guy at work who comes late and cleans the office. We always chat, and he's always trying to convince me at how good Islam is, and that the terrorist actions we see around the world are nothing to do with Islam.
I asked him if the God of Islam hates non-muslims? He didn't want to answer, and I told him that any muslim will not be "better than his god". If your god hates kafirs, then a human being is only going to be as good as the god he worships - hardly better.
I told him that the God of the Bible loves everyone... even those that do not accept Him. But that leads to the question about eternal hell?
What is the case with muslims - do they go to hell if they are not baptised? After all, the Bible says that unless you believe and are baptised, you are not saved.
I know the answer is usually : "Be concerned with your own salvation" - and that's true.. but if someone asks me if they are going to heaven, and are muslim, what can I say to them??
I need some advice, but I wanted to post it in this section because its to do with the official position of the Church.
There's a muslim guy at work who comes late and cleans the office. We always chat, and he's always trying to convince me at how good Islam is, and that the terrorist actions we see around the world are nothing to do with Islam.
I asked him if the God of Islam hates non-muslims? He didn't want to answer, and I told him that any muslim will not be "better than his god". If your god hates kafirs, then a human being is only going to be as good as the god he worships - hardly better.
I told him that the God of the Bible loves everyone... even those that do not accept Him. But that leads to the question about eternal hell?
What is the case with muslims - do they go to hell if they are not baptised? After all, the Bible says that unless you believe and are baptised, you are not saved.
I know the answer is usually : "Be concerned with your own salvation" - and that's true.. but if someone asks me if they are going to heaven, and are muslim, what can I say to them??
Comments
When it comes to Muslims we cannot say. It all depends to what extent they have sought God. A Muslim who is a committed Muslim seems to me to be far from God. But if God wills it may be possible that someone born a Muslim who seeks God might find Him, but not in Islam.
It would not be correct to say Muslims are not going to heaven. It would be correct to say that only those who seek God have any hope of salvation. If a Muslim has not found himself disturbed by Islam then it is difficult to see how such a one has sought God.
But the Glorious One (Aslan) bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, 'Son thou art welcome.' But I said, 'Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash.' He answered, 'Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.' Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, 'Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one?' The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, 'It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he had truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?' I said, 'Lord, thou knowest how much I understand.' But I said also (for the truth constrained me), 'Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days.' 'Beloved,' said the Glorious One, 'unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly.' For all find what they truly seek.
The last line I think, echoes what Fr. Peter was saying above. God wouldn't let the circumstances of one's birth or one's geographical location get in the way of salvation. There are truly good men and women in all periods of history and among all faiths, and God knows and loves them, and will not treat them unfairly.
Pray for me
They have 70 virgins waiting for them.
My question (a little off topic) why would they have need for even 1 virgin?
They can't populate Heaven. God gave Adam a woman so they could populate the earth.
Why/How would this make sense to anyone?
God bless, Pray for me,
Cyril
Yes.
They have 70 virgins waiting for them.
No. They get the 72 virgins if they kill for the sake of Allah - and they are killed also.
However, If they injure you for the sake of Allah, i think they get a Sony Playstation.
Basically, it works like this: the more you do, the more you get. The higher the damage, the bigger the prize.
When Muslims allow themselves to die for Allah, it is called "Suicide".
There is a distinct difference, I think.
The Bible is clear about suicide and eternal life. That should answer half of the OP's question :)
So, if a muslims SEARCHES for the truth with all their heart, and they are genuinely peaceful and do not kill anyone for the sake of "allah" - then where are they going?
-----
Actually, small side topic about the 72 virgins.. This muslim was telling me about the importance of the 72 virgins and he was saying that in Heaven, you can't just praise God all the time.. you'll get bored, so he has given you something to keep you occupied: 72 virgins.
I asked him what his wife would think about that - and he said: "its up to her.. if she wants to be with you, that's great.. if not, she can just watch".
Wow.
Then I said to him: I thought fornication was against Islam? So if these are not your wives, then why does God give them to you? How can your god say something is wrong for you on earth and then allow it in heaven?
he said: "That's just it!! Because you controlled yourself from it on earth, then you are rewarded with it in Heaven!"
This "allah" guy is just a party-boy.. seriously. I mean, he knows how to PAR-TAY and chill out.
Then I said to him: "how on earth can you have sex when you are dead.. its oNLY your soul that exists... "
he said: "no no.. God gives you another body where you can enjoy all that stuff".
You are just a fountain of knowledge.
TITL,
Very profoundly put.
Fr. Peter,
There is a great place in the Heavenly Mansions, after a long life and priesthood, for you.
I am sure of it.
You are a good stewart to the Good Savior.
I'm feeling very pedantic today, forgive me.
Fr. Peter,
There is a great place in the Heavenly Mansions, after a long life and priesthood, for you.
I am sure of it.
You are a good stewart to the Good Savior.
I noticed something quite strange as of late:
Those who are new to the Orthodox faith seem to be more orthodox than those who were born in it.
I met this PURE 100% belgian guy in Church last week.. and he's a die hard Coptic Orthodox Christian. He left the catholic church to become orthodox. He loves the Church with a passion, i think even more than us.
He's upset about the charismatic movement within the Church, and the hasty pace of reading the agpeyas also.
I know loads of people like this. In fact, he's so orthodox, we've even suggested that he becomes a priest (no joke!)
I don't believe that God sends ANYONE to hell. You send yourself.. and hell is simply the absence of God.. its probably an eternal / perpetual / timeless distance away from Love, Truth and Life that all you have to keep yourself company is what you built in your heart.
It worries me all this, even for Christians.. i heard the story of Mother Irini (the late Sister Irini) - she apparently went to heaven and spoke of what she saw - and I really believe the account she gave. Apparently, she was surprised to see priests/bishops etc and other people she knew in really bad places in heaven, and over very very strange reasons.
There was this one nun whom she knew and she saw in heaven. She was in a very distance place. Apparently it was due to the fact that she refused to lend a book to another nun and she wanted it for herself. OVER A BOOK!!!
The nun whom she met in heaven was glad even that she ended up where she ended up.. she was saying how grateful she was for the place she was given.
This is a bit worrying. I can truly see why the Church wants us to focus on our own salvation.
How exactly do you know if you've successfully carried your cross in all this?? How can you be so sure that you're not going to get disappointed with what you get in heaven?? How can you make sure that there are not going to be any unpleasant surprises???
What do you do??
How can you be so sure that you're not going to get disappointed with what you get in heaven??
Mate, I don't know about you, but if I were to get the lowest of the lowest of the lowliest place possible in Heaven, I would be ecstatic. Waaaaaay past ecstatic even. Words would not describe the joy!
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10957.msg132739#msg132739 date=1299864256]
How can you be so sure that you're not going to get disappointed with what you get in heaven??
Mate, I don't know about you, but if I were to get the lowest of the lowest of the lowliest place possible in Heaven, I would be ecstatic. Waaaaaay past ecstatic even. Words would not describe the joy!
Me too.. I'd be very grateful.. but I'd be so upset at those who ruined my chances of a better position.
Seek first the kingdom of God.
Keep the spiritual traditions of the Church. Fast seriously, pray earnestly, love sacrificially.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10957.msg132741#msg132741 date=1299865140]
[quote author=JG link=topic=10957.msg132740#msg132740 date=1299864401]
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10957.msg132739#msg132739 date=1299864256]
How can you be so sure that you're not going to get disappointed with what you get in heaven??
Mate, I don't know about you, but if I were to get the lowest of the lowest of the lowliest place possible in Heaven, I would be ecstatic. Waaaaaay past ecstatic even. Words would not describe the joy!
Me too.. I'd be very grateful.. but I'd be so upset at those who ruined my chances of a better position.
Did you guys hear about the nun that Tamav Erini visited in heaven? She had a nice place, but it wasn't as big and green like all the other saints (I feel like posted this story before..). When Tamav asked the nun why her place wasn't like all the other saints, she replied that whenever she used to lend other nuns her books, she used to worry about the book's condition and ask them to be careful. Since the books were limited and brand new, she used to ask people to return them as soon as they were done.
I don't even consider that a sin or a weakness. If that "fault" deserves a "not so great" place in heaven, then I'm with JG and Thoxsasi: just getting to heaven, beneath all the other people, would satisfy me.
Anyway, as to the topic, I quite like Fr. Peter's explanation, and not just because it's what I thought previously too (or at least not entirely because of that). You see, I have conversed online with a Saudi Christian guy. Obviously he can't go to church or identify openly as Christian in his home country, but if I could be 1/100th of the Christian that this guy is...well I would already be tasting heaven now! He had the opportunity for international travel a few years ago, and before he left he asked where he could "vacation with Jesus' church" (I still remember the exact phrase because it affected me so much). He wanted to spend his vacation time in Church! He planned his whole trip around what churches he could go to, where he could go to church most often, etc.! He was overjoyed to be around other Christians. Yes, he is still a Muslim in his flesh, but in his heart, where it really matters, here is a man who is truly seeking God, and has found Him in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I believe that this is the kind of person and situation Fr. Peter probably has in mind about Muslims seeking God. I find it very, very hard to imagine that he will not be far ahead of me in heaven (so long as we are talking about position).
I don't know if Muslims go to heaven in the generic sense, but I think if at least some Muslims can't go to heaven (like my Saudi friend, who is necessarily outside the bounds of Islam by his faith in Jesus Christ) then I'm not sure any of us have much of a chance, either.
Boy, that was a close one. Almost got a panic attack.
Sorry.
Well since I'm posting again, I guess I might as well add something useful and important to this thread...
I LOOOOVE this picture of Anba Karas: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs070.snc3/13743_215154202496_561522496_3021172_7558699_n.jpg
If you just glance at it, it looks like he's smiling. Just don't stare too much or you'll think I'm crazy.
And the Scripture provides enough evidence for us to say that those who have not been able to receive the Gospel will be judged with love and righteousness by God.
If heaven must contain only those who have been baptised then none of us should be allowed entry since the reason most people are not Orthodox is OUR FAULT and due to our LACK OF CARE for others. If we have happily allowed millions to go to Hell because we don't care then we deserve Hell ourselves.
Thank God that He is merciful, but we are still guilty if we do not share our faith or support those doing so.
Tell him to sign up for a tasbeha.org account! ;D
I'm not sure he'd do it. He wants to be a Catholic.
We cannot say who is going to Heaven and who is not, if we do predict who is going where this means that we are equal with God, which we are not. Only God knows the heart of man, and God will be the one to judge.
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
[John ch. 8]
Notice that every man that commits sin is a SLAVE to sin and slaves do not enter into the house (Heaven) but only the sons.
now the Question is How do I become a son?
How do I go to heaven?
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
[John ch. 8]
Notice that every man that commits sin is a SLAVE to sin and slaves do not enter into the house (Heaven) but only the sons.
now the Question is How do I become a son?
touché
I hope that this message finds you well in Christ. I have seen several topics such as these arise over the years, concerning whether or not a certain sect, denomination, or religion's adherents would be admitted into the kingdom of heaven. Let us first step back and consider what it is that the kingdom of heaven actually is as we seek to become citizens. It is sad to say that we have a very "cartoonized" idea about what heaven is. We have in our minds a concept that Heaven is a "place" and that Hades is a "place," some sort of physical realms, or at best, spiritual realms that are separated in some way. Let us examine a fundamental attribute of God that we believe to be true, without reservation, taught from our first lessons in the faith. God is everywhere. Our "cartoon" definition of Hades, though, is that it is a place where God is not... but if God is not somewhere, then God is limited, and is therefore not God. As we know that this is not true, we must then modify our thinking and seek to grow from the childish understanding of what Hades is, and what Heaven is.
Luke 17:21 "For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." St. Cyril of Alexandria says the following: "Now it is only for the benefit of each individual that He says that which follows, For behold the kingdom of God is within you; that is, it rests with you and your own hearts to receive it. For every man who is justified by faith and the grace of God, and adorned with virtues, may obtain the kingdom of heaven." St Gregory of Nyssa: "Or, perhaps, the kingdom of God being within us, means that joy that is implanted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. For that is, as it were, the image and pledge of the everlasting joy with which in the world to come the souls of the Saints rejoice." The Venerable Bede: "Or the kingdom of God means that He Himself is placed in the midst of them, that is, reigning in their hearts by faith."
The kingdom of God is not a "place," it is an existence. It's a relationship. Many times, we think that if we do one thing or another, it will get us a spot in heaven. The mindset with which we have been conditioned to believe in, that which is promulgated by scholastic examinations and the like, has led us to believe that we can somehow either sneak a way into Heaven, or trick God into giving us a "higher" position in Heaven. No one is going to fool God. But beyond that, Heaven is not a place that we can fool God into getting in to. When we say that we can begin to ascend the heights of the ladder of divine ascent that we may perchance live for a moment in the kingdom of Heaven within our own lifetimes here on Earth, it does not mean that we will ascend into some new place, or be snatched away from the Earth and taken to another physical realm. The ascent is one based on our ever-growing relationship with God. I must know of God in the proper sense, and then know God in the personal sense.
Knowing of God in the proper sense means that I take into account all of the things that He has revealed to us about Himself, through the Bible, through the Tradition of the Church, through the writings of the Church Fathers, through modern day Church Fathers, and so on. If I simply develop my own idea of who God is, outside of the confines of the Church, it means that I most likely have developed some sort of doctrine or dogma that was not revealed to us by God, as His revelation has been preserved by the Church, and am, therefore, worshiping some other "god." As I grow in knowing about God, I must also grow in knowing Him personally. I cannot only read books about Him, or do acts of kindness without having the heart and spirit that reflect Christ within me to support it. It is when I allow Christ to live within me, when I let the guidance of the Holy Spirit take hold of me, when I marvel at the greatness of the Father who created me, that I may begin to live within the kingdom of God, as the kingdom of God begins to live within me.
Heaven is not a "place." People don't "go to Heaven." Heaven is a relationship with God. God is everywhere. If I lived an unrighteous life and died, I still am in the presence of God after my death; it is the fact that I have rejected Him all my life that makes me completely hate and reject Him and His Love. In our own lives, we may sometimes see this in the interactions that we have with others. There are times when someone is very nice with us, but we hate them nonetheless, and the nicer they are with us, the more it irritates us and we hate them all the more for it. Imagine, then, if you were in the presence of Pure Love, and you hated it passionately. Existing in that situation would be so tormentingly painful for you, as the God whom you have rejected all of your life offers you His never-ending Love and you reject Him all the more for it. If, though, you live a righteous life, and whole-heartedly accept Christ, then your "position" in Heaven is greater; that is to say, your spirit's appreciation and desire to grow in love continuously increases, as your relationship with God continues to grow in the age to come, having been initiated here on Earth.
This is why we cannot say who will "get in" and who won't; it is not for us to decide what is in a person's heart, what it is that they desire. Let us also keep in mind that God is Mercy, and His Mercy far outranks the ideas of mercy that we might have. This is also why the right-hand thief was granted the greatest gift of all. St. Ambrose writes the following: "A most remarkable example is here given of seeking after conversion, seeing that pardon is so speedily granted to the thief. The Lord quickly pardons, because the thief is quickly converted. And grace is more abundant than prayer; for the Lord ever gives more than He is asked for. The thief asked that He should remember him, but our Lord answers, Verily I say to you, This day shall you be with me in Paradise. To be with Christ is life, and where Christ is, there is His kingdom." See what it is that St. Ambrose says at the end of this excerpt; this is the kingdom of Heaven!
Let us try to keep this in mind for the future. We cannot judge what is in the hearts of others. If we could, I'm sure that we would all agree in our unmerciful minds that the thief would be the last person that we chose to enter into a magnificent relationship with God.
Keep me in your prayers, as you seek to further your own relationship with God, that His kingdom may find an abode within you,
childoforthodoxy