Self Harm/Mutiliation for your salvation

Zoxsasi

There are some people who believe that when Christ said:

"And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched. . .And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire..." -MARK 9:45-47

that He literally meant it.

Therefore, by this logic, if I find my mind sinning, I might as well kill myself to avoid evil thoughts. Surely God gave me a mind? I might as well eat something like lead or mercury that destroys the mind to stop it from thinking anything.

If I find my eyes looking at a naked woman, I might as well cut my head off because it attaches the head and my eyes to my body.

Is this really how God wants us to interpret such verses? Should we really be destroying our bodies or our limbs if they cause us to sin, or should we deal with the root cause of the problem - which is the heart?

As far as I can see, what this verse means is that if someone SO CLOSE to us causes us to sin, its best to cut them off than to be with them and perish. Am I wrong ?

I had someone email me this verse as a proof that self-harm , for the benefit of your spiritual life, is recommended by Christ.

Should we be walking around blind or legless because we've cut our limbs off to stop ourselves sinning? Is this literal?? or is it symbolical???

mabsoota

i think if you carefully consider how many of the saints, and indeed people in the church today, are commemorated for cutting off parts of their body, you will find an answer to your question.

origen self-mutilated and got in trouble for it. abba samaan (i think it was him) injured his own eye, and was famously told off by the church for doing it. but he repented of that, and it is because he repented of that, he is still considered a saint.

your friend needs a good psychiatrist and an understanding priest. self-harm is usually a symptom of serious disorder. (except in some cases when a group of people harm themselves in order to strengthen the ties in the group, even then it is hardly a normal thing to do!) may God guide him/her and have mercy.

Zoxsasi

[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=10922.msg132272#msg132272 date=1299527973]
i think if you carefully consider how many of the saints, and indeed people in the church today, are commemorated for cutting off parts of their body, you will find an answer to your question.

origen self-mutilated and got in trouble for it. abba samaan (i think it was him) injured his own eye, and was famously told off by the church for doing it. but he repented of that, and it is because he repented of that, he is still considered a saint.

your friend needs a good psychiatrist and an understanding priest. self-harm is usually a symptom of serious disorder. (except in some cases when a group of people harm themselves in order to strengthen the ties in the group, even then it is hardly a normal thing to do!) may God guide him/her and have mercy.


hehe...

Thanks.
oh.. he's NO friend of mine.

He's some user on Tasbeha.org who told me told me that Christ used "hyperbolic" statements to make a point.

I think he's misunderstood it clearly.

dzheremi

Hmmm. Perhaps this will be relevant, or perhaps not:

Since I began last week to pray in earnest with the Agpeya, I have seemingly become hypersensitive in my nerves. So much so that when I begin to pray I will often be overcome with nervous attacks and feel very itchy. Itchy to the point of being unable to concentrate, and that will make me angry, and then I will stop praying and that will make me even angrier (and ashamed). I resolved to do something about it two nights ago, when in the night prayer I did stop, but in a fit I tore off my sleeping clothes (clarification: leaving on personal undergarments...I've offended God enough as it is!  :-[), threw them on the ground and said "if your right hand causes you sin, cut it off!" Then I prayed the Jesus Prayer several times, picked up the Agpeya and resumed the hour to its conclusion.

Yes, I feel ridiculous typing that out, and am laughing at myself now as I think about yelling at a pile of clothing, but I think if I didn't do that I would have not continued the prayer, and hence would have sinned in letting the devil take that hour. Fr Lazarus talks in the "Monk's Life" series about hearing voices beckoning him from his prayers for the first six months that he was in his cave. It took a while for him to reach the point of ignoring them. I have unfortunately not yet reached the level of ignoring my nerves.

I think we all have those things that would invite us to sin if we let them, and that the verses you have brought are illustrating to us, by way of hyperbole, the level to which we should be willing to go to avoid sin.

Zoxsasi

That's a very weired story.. i didn't really get most of it - but you agree that in NO WAY Christ wanted you to tear off your limbs if they caused you to sin??!!

So, if he didn't want this - why did he say it?

dzheremi

Sorry, Zoxsasi. I didn't mean to weird anybody out. I meant only to show that there are other ways of interpreting the verses that do not involve physically maiming yourself. Of course I did not want to tear off my limbs.

Like I wrote earlier, I interpret the principle established to be that we should go to any length necessary to avoid sin. The keyword, I would think, is "necessary". Is it necessary to mutilate yourself to stop sinning? I don't think so.

Think of it this way: During Lent, you deprive yourself of food. Do you do this by removing your stomach from your body? No. While that would certainly make abstaining from food much, much easier, it is not necessary if you are willing to struggle to master your passion for eating, and replace that yearning with yearning for a closer relationship with God. In fact, By the same token, poking your eye out will do nothing to help you if you still have lust in your heart.

I don't think anyone should kill his brain to avoid sin. It's better to try to kill your will when it causes you to turn from God. After all,  you can sin with none of your mind engaged (how many times have I sinned grievously and asked myself afterward "What was I thinking? Where was my brain when I was doing X, Y, Z?!" Too many times to count). But you can also fight sin with all your heart, which is pretty hard to do when you're dead.