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Urgent: ahram survey to remove article 2 from constitution
Hi
The Ahram newspaper is doing an online survey to see how many of us want article 2 removed from the constitution.
Article 2 states that Islam is the state religion.
Please could you vote????
The site is at:
http://www.ahram-eg.com/
YOU NEED TO VOTE NO! The question asks if you want the Article 2 to survive or to remain as it is.
I hope you can see that this needs to be changed.
PLEASE SELECT NO (OPTION 2)
The Ahram newspaper is doing an online survey to see how many of us want article 2 removed from the constitution.
Article 2 states that Islam is the state religion.
Please could you vote????
The site is at:
http://www.ahram-eg.com/
YOU NEED TO VOTE NO! The question asks if you want the Article 2 to survive or to remain as it is.
I hope you can see that this needs to be changed.
PLEASE SELECT NO (OPTION 2)
Comments
Wont let me vote or see results.
Try Google Chrome.
For those that cannot read arabic and want to vote.. you need to select OPTION 2: NO.
The question is:
Do you want Article 2 of the Dostor (constitution) to remain as it is??
(YES) --> If you are a die hard muslim
(NO) --> If you want a free Egypt from religious persecution, and a secular state.
PLEASE VOTE!!!
This voting is not specific for article 2 but about the whole constitution:
The exact translation of the poll from the link you posted above:
Does Egypt need a new Constitution?
* Yes
* No
* Don't care
May be in the case of a new constitution article 2 could be changed or modified.. I said may be. There is a work around for this article 2: if Islam is insisted upon they should explicitly add to it that Christianity is the source of ruling for Christian affairs, the freedom of worship to citizens and the freedom to build different places of worship including churches. This way every body's freedom rights of worship should be granted.
How can you be sure that this poll is not tampered with? And how can you be sure that it is a solid serious poll that will be respected and used as reference? Just few question that come to mind. Plus, the Ahram board of directors is almost the same one as before, people do not change their political orientations 180 degrees just like that.
GBU
PS: there is still no provision for displaying current results
WARNING: I received few email invites to participate in this poll, so either the poll subject was suddenly changed without notice or results, or many were tricked into saying a Yes that magically exchanged its position with a No.
We've also here been recently warned not to sign on any printed petition, and definitely nothing without very trustful guidance or being absolutely sure it is an official vote. You're free, though I had to tell you what I knew.
Zoxsasi, could you translate a summary of these 2 Ahram pages & a view of the comments?
http://www.ahram.org.eg/449/2011/02/20/38/63680.aspx
http://www.ahram.org.eg/449/2011/02/20/9/63576.aspx
TIA
Zoxsasi,
This voting is not specific for article 2 but about the whole constitution:
The exact translation of the poll from the link you posted above:
Does Egypt need a new Constitution?
* Yes
* No
* Don't care
May be in the case of a new constitution article 2 could be changed or modified.. I said may be. There is a work around for this article 2: if Islam is insisted upon they should explicitly add to it that Christianity is the source of ruling for Christian affairs, the freedom of worship to citizens and the freedom to build different places of worship including churches. This way every body's freedom rights of worship should be granted.
How can you be sure that this poll is not tampered with? And how can you be sure that it is a solid serious poll that will be respected and used as reference? Just few question that come to mind. Plus, the Ahram board of directors is almost the same one as before, people do not change their political orientations 180 degrees just like that.
GBU
PS: there is still no provision for displaying current results
WARNING: I received few email invites to participate in this poll, so either the poll subject was suddenly changed without notice or results, or many were tricked into saying a Yes that magically exchanged its position with a No.
We've also here been recently warned not to sign on any printed petition, and definitely nothing without very trustful guidance or being absolutely sure it is an official vote. You're free, though I had to tell you what I knew.
Zoxsasi, could you translate a summary of these 2 Ahram pages & a view of the comments?
http://www.ahram.org.eg/449/2011/02/20/38/63680.aspx
http://www.ahram.org.eg/449/2011/02/20/9/63576.aspx
TIA
Hi John,
I don't know when you read my post, or clicked on the link I sent, but it was most likely at a time when they changed the question.
I can assure you, the question was to remove article 2 from the Dostor.
They obviously changed the question again.
It was 80% --> Keep it as it is
and 24% --> Change it.
I felt that if Ahram journalists saw this, or anyone else, it would influence public opinion.
I hope we can all remember them in our prayers. It's about time that Muammar el-Qaddafi leaves office (him and George Washington were appointed president the same year). Hopefully Libya's next president doesn't abide by the Green Book or sleep in tents :P
The current situation in Libya is faaaaar worse than what happened in Masr.
I hope we can all remember them in our prayers. It's about time that Muammar el-Qaddafi leaves office (him and George Washington were appointed president the same year). Hopefully Libya's next president doesn't abide by the Green Book or sleep in tents :P
Yes.. you are correct.
Mubarak is nothing like Al Gaddafi - and his son, Gamal, is more honourable than Saif Al Islam.
They are SICK people. Gaddafi even paid some Italian women to read the Quran and influenced them to convert to Islam. How on earth can he kill his own "muslim" people!??
He's evil to the core.
I pray that God rids us of these people ASAP.
Yeah, his son's speech yesterday was completely shocking, and I quote, "This is not Egypt.. we will fight until the last man, last woman, last bullet". He said if protests continue then he'll turn the country into pools of blood. He's already putting people with facebook accounts in jail. He reminds me of Hitler.
The weirdest thing is that he only ended up in power by violently removing King Idris of Libya.
What is it with Arabs? They seem to enjoy submission and inequality. I think they were made for the Quran.
Alright I'm sorry for drifting your thread; I just didn't want to create a new one. We can go back to talking about the Ahram survey.
Commercials over guys (but please do keep Libya in your prayers!)
__________________________________________________________________________
I voted no.
Isnt Islam the state religion? Whats the big deal?
Hi Ioannes,
Currently, with islam being the state religion, Copts are discriminated against.. as well as minorities.
The MB were on TV recently saying that under FULL Sharia Law, Coptic Christians and other Kuffar, would have to pay a Jizya Tax. They CANNOT pay the same as a muslim (Zikat).
God has to love the believer and treat the unbeliever with harshness.
We don't want this.
In fact many Copts were cautious about removing Mubarak because of this - although there was inequality under his regime, it wasn't full sharia.
I dont think that is very important actually, I think we should just let the political leaders make a decision, they know whats best.
I just feel that now is the time to make our voices heard.
If a new party (Hezb) comes into power that implements Islamic Law / Sharia, in Egypt, we will lose our freedom of Speech. Life will be harder for non muslims - even for muslims.
Just look at Iran. These idiots actually VOTED to make Iran into an Islamic State in 1979.. now they are stuck. They can't get out of it.
Zoxasi, I just dont see it as being that important and certainly not a threat to anyone. Its all harmless and I am sure the political leaders know better than we do so it is not prudent to question their actions or motives.
* The MB were on TV recently saying that under Islamic Law, Christians cannot be elected to senior positions in the government - ESPECIALLY president - Christians and Women that is.
* Christians WILL have to pay Jizya Taxes. They were very clear about this. They didn't hide their intentions.
* Look at the story of Assia Bibi - in Pakistan: She was asked WHY is she Christian, and why doesn't she convert to Islam? She said : "Because what did Muhammad do for me? Christ died for me..."
She's now being sentenced to death for blasphemy against Islam and the prophet.
Imagine muslims going around asking this to EVERY single Coptic Christian, and trying to catch each one out? That's going to lead to mass executions.. .
In fact, the Pakistani politicians trying to protect her and change the blasphemy laws cannot change it. They are offending hardline muslims who feel that the blasphemy laws are from Allah and should remain. They want her dead.
What if this happened in Egypt???
Im seriously concerned for Egypt AND for Copts.
http://continentalnews.net/persecuted-christians/muslims-abduct-coptic-christian-woman-in-egypt-6326.html
Maybe if you read this, it will give you some idea of what we're up against:
http://continentalnews.net/persecuted-christians/muslims-abduct-coptic-christian-woman-in-egypt-6326.html
many worst things had happened....wht makes this differnt?! yes, we ought to be with our brothers in egypt, we must pray for them and help them in anyway possible.....but that's it.
In Egypt, we are now working on a new beginning, hopfully for the good. Attcking Islam will not do any good...on the contrary it'll make it worst. it will weaken our argument of being represented as people of egypt. you can't speak against the majority and expect them to help keep you safe. you only speak about what's good for yourself.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10761.msg131267#msg131267 date=1298302395]
Maybe if you read this, it will give you some idea of what we're up against:
http://continentalnews.net/persecuted-christians/muslims-abduct-coptic-christian-woman-in-egypt-6326.html
many worst things had happened....wht makes this differnt?! yes, we ought to be with our brothers in egypt, we must pray for them and help them in anyway possible.....but that's it.
In Egypt, we are now working on a new beginning, hopfully for the good. Attcking Islam will not do any good...on the contrary it'll make it worst. it will weaken our argument of being represented as people of egypt. you can't speak against the majority and expect them to help keep you safe. you only speak about what's good for yourself.
So, you basically agree with Ioannes? Right?
I'm not attacking Islam at all. Muslims also want a secular state! I'm just stating the truth and highlighting what life would be like under sharia law and what life is currently like under the current legal framework in Egypt.
Is that wrong?
So, you basically agree with Ioannes? Right?
i thought about agreeing but i couldn't fully agree for sure. they have done evil things, and they do. Islam in general is not accepted much any more. everyone in the world is speaking against it. but all talk of religion never gets into politics. even those who try, they fail in a trap or another.
NOW, what i believe is this: you just have enough time on your hands to go read all those articles (not even the original arabic ones which are published a LOT faster) and come here on the forum and state your opinion. next to that, your opinion only covers what you see on the news and read on the net. it can never be reflected on the reality that is in egypt. Also, i would like to add that it is so with ALLLLLLLLL those who think the can help the Copts in egypt while they are outside egypt. lol.....it's like Obama when he was STILL speaking about egyption matters during the revolution, TELLING THE REST OF THE WORLd that he is doing something.....which he is NOT. the state that egypt is in now was caused BY EGYPTIANS. NOTHING WE CAN dO outside egypt will effact the egyptians except if it is in the span and reach of the Church.
Your all delusional, Islam is not a threat to anyone, it is a peaceful religion.
i hope you are just being sarcastic.....because it's hard to believe that this is coming from someone who would rather send all "protestants" to hell......
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10761.msg131279#msg131279 date=1298307761]
Your all delusional, Islam is not a threat to anyone, it is a peaceful religion.
i hope you are just being sarcastic.....because it's hard to believe that this is coming from someone who would rather send all "protestants" to hell......
What's the link between this and protestants?
What's the link between this and protestants?
NOTHING AT ALL...it's criticism towards Ioannes.....there is a reason a quoted his statement
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=10761.msg131289#msg131289 date=1298309687]
That is quite a disgusting statement mina and I expect an apology. That is judgmental and disgusting beings I never NEVER said that.
oh. you never did say that....and i doubt that you believe it. but it does always sound like that when you speak about them. and i just expect that the person who is that judgmental on those people, be also on the rest of the world who do believe that he is, as a Christian, is doomed to death.
yes....i am judgmental.....sue me.
First off mina it is not my fault that you cannot distinguish between the individual and the belief, that is more of a reflection on you than it is me. NOW you know how I feel when I am trying to speak on PROTESTANTISM and a bunch of people attack me and shove words into my mouth.
despite if you are attacking the belief or the person....that will only effect your status. but the result that you may want (which as i say is more understood from your texts) is the same. i don't have time to go back on get specific posts. let's not hijack the post before Zoxasi yells at me. pm me please if you want to discuss this more.
No mina. I work closely with other priests on this very subject, there is NOTHING wrong with attacking beliefs. If there is, then you have to discount 90% of the early church fathers. Do not EVER repeat that I ever said anything about protestants "going to hell". I NEVER said that, it absolutely absurd that you feel you can just throw stuff out there like that with complete disregard.
Mina,
I agree with Ioannes on this. Its illogical to love Orthodoxy to the point where we wish non orthodox christians are in hell. That's totally insane and unorthodox, unchristian, and it wasn't what Ioannes has ever wished. That proves that Ioannes would never had wished that. I cannot love God to the point of hating my enemy.
I dislike protestantism.. i don't wish nor condemn anyone protestant.
I dislike/loath how some protestants attack my Church, yet I still welcome them here in tasbeha.org and in the Church itself.
I think you should change your post Mina, because you give the wrong impression. Ioannes is clearly zealous about his Orthodox faith, but in no way fanatical to the point of hatred. No one here is.
It even pleases me a bit that i've seen you defend Islam and try to turn the other cheek towards muslims when they attack us. This is a good attitude that we all share.