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Psalm 150 Response for Jonah's Fast
Hello everyone,
As many of you already know that the fast of Jonah the prophet is coming up and I would like to get your opinions about the response Psalm 150 for the fast. According to the following link that is chanted by Wagdi Bishara http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Fasts/Jonah/Wagdi_Bishara/12-Psalm_150_Jonah_Wagdi_Bishara.1955.mp3, there is a response and he records it. However, I've always heard that there is no response at all for the fast and that you just combine two verse per quartet of tune. I'm confused about this because I heard opposing sides to this issue. Another point that I would like to point out is that on the link provided above, Wagdi Bishara chants the second response only and does not mention anything about or chant the first response. Can anyone provide a recording that incorporates the first response. Surprisingly, Cantor Ibrahim Ayad does not record Psalm 150 at all in his rites for the fast that is on this site. Thank you very much and God Bless.
As many of you already know that the fast of Jonah the prophet is coming up and I would like to get your opinions about the response Psalm 150 for the fast. According to the following link that is chanted by Wagdi Bishara http://tasbeha.org/media/index.php?st=Hymns/Fasts/Jonah/Wagdi_Bishara/12-Psalm_150_Jonah_Wagdi_Bishara.1955.mp3, there is a response and he records it. However, I've always heard that there is no response at all for the fast and that you just combine two verse per quartet of tune. I'm confused about this because I heard opposing sides to this issue. Another point that I would like to point out is that on the link provided above, Wagdi Bishara chants the second response only and does not mention anything about or chant the first response. Can anyone provide a recording that incorporates the first response. Surprisingly, Cantor Ibrahim Ayad does not record Psalm 150 at all in his rites for the fast that is on this site. Thank you very much and God Bless.
Comments
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/268
ALso if you start arguing that Jonah worked by divine guidance and that should be ok, why didn't we add a response to psalm 150 yesterday for anba Anthony?
USe your brain people and don't follow any teaching Willy nilly. God gave us a spirit of discerning, and st. Paul advised that we should examine the spirits. Even satan manifested itself as an angel before. Hope that's clear
Oujai
Father Peter
Oujai
there is NOOO response. But an arabic response was put (i was taught that it was Fr.Tadros Yacoub who spread it in the states from ALex, beginning in my church). than latter coptic ones were put. Ibrahim Ayad dOES have a coptic version that is translated from the arabic. Wagdi Bishara choose another way to go and put a response that includes the Lord in a more direct way....the text is here for both:
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/268
I checked the text at that link. In my opinion, the Coptic seems awkward in both versions of the text.
In the first version, which is paraphrased from Matthew 12:40, a slighly more accurate Coptic text is needed. I would have borrowed from Matthew 12:40 and wrote the verse as
Iwna enafqen `;neji `mpikytoc `m`vry] `mPi,rictoc aferqen pi`mhau `nsomt `n`ehoou. (Sorry I don't know how to write in Coptic fonts.)
The problem here is that musically this doesn't fit the tune.
The second version should read
W vyetafareh `eIwna enaf,y qen `;neji `mpikytoc
Keep in mind though, this would make the refrain a fragmented sentence. It doesn't fit the context of Psalm 150.
So the best solution is to stick to the original rite and not have a refrain. But I think the Holy Synod is slowly moving toward adding refrains fro all seasons.
OUjai
I have to say that as a convert it is rather confusing to say the least that on the one hand the Coptic Tradition is presented as unchanging, and on the other hand we learn that the Coptic language is not pronounced properly and that people are adding things to the hymns without very much authority - not to mention all the other things discussed on other threads.
Father Peter
Father Peter,
I understand your confusion. It can be quite confusing for us as well believe it or not haha. Especially when you are taught a pronunciation and come to realize that what you have been taught can be totally false. But, I think more or less its a process. Its like being in Elementary school. You start out with learning your numbers then addition and multiplication etc. Then you get to algebra and all the way up to the highest level of calculus. You can think of learning coptic one way to build on the other. When i compare the pronunciations, although one is possibly false, having learned GB first it makes comparing to OB much easier in my opinion at least. Maybe my example is a bit out there lol. But thats how i think of it at least.
I have to say that as a convert it is rather confusing to say the least that on the one hand the Coptic Tradition is presented as unchanging, and on the other hand we learn that the Coptic language is not pronounced properly and that people are adding things to the hymns without very much authority - not to mention all the other things discussed on other threads.
Father Peter
Fr Peter,
I guess it comes down to how you define "Coptic Tradition". To me, Coptic "T"radition is the faith, theology and doctrine received from Christ, which we would die for. Coptic "t"radition is the collective cultral or anthropological practices of a particular society. The Coptic Orthodox Christians are one particular society with its own practices. Coptic Catholic is another, Coptic Muslims (and yes they call themselves that) is another and so on. Each will have their own tradition (notice the small caps) and their own practices which change all the time.
It's easy to confuse Coptic Orthodox Christian Tradition with Coptic Orthodox Christian tradition.
George
I have to say that as a convert it is rather confusing to say the least that on the one hand the Coptic Tradition is presented as unchanging, and on the other hand we learn that the Coptic language is not pronounced properly and that people are adding things to the hymns without very much authority - not to mention all the other things discussed on other threads.
Father Peter
yeah well thats they way Egyptians think!they think they can change whatever they want and its ok with the rest of the world.
i think this problem comes to the priests and the bishops. if they hear something sung wrong, they should speak up! also, there is nothing that is set in stone for the coptic and english hymns. for example, all of a sudden in the southern diocese kholagi, it says "Laud him all you people" (there is more to the response that changed but i don't remember" whereas every other book and power point says "praise him all you nations"! also, i have never seen more than two churches in NJ that say all of the responses during the Institution Narrative the same way. From the smallest response (Aleethos) Pistevomen (some churches say aleethos, some don't), to the largest Amen, Amen, Amen (english). The words, the tune, everything is different. there needs to be some way that is set in stone. i am sure that there is but seriously, no one is following it (at least my church is not)
Father Peter
Hmmmm.... well I am English, but even I would hesitate to use the word 'laud' in any liturgical text for current use.
Father Peter
the new text of the Southern Diocese use that...actually, i think it's "Laud Him all you gentiles" from psalm 116(117). it is always a problem when dealing with Bible translations in our Church specially to the Psalms and the OT since they don't match most of the coptic we have in Church.
[quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=10595.msg129249#msg129249 date=1296587268]
yeah well thats they way Egyptians think!they think they can change whatever they want and its ok with the rest of the world.
i think this problem comes to the priests and the bishops. if they hear something sung wrong, they should speak up! also, there is nothing that is set in stone for the coptic and english hymns. for example, all of a sudden in the southern diocese kholagi, it says "Laud him all you people" (there is more to the response that changed but i don't remember" whereas every other book and power point says "praise him all you nations"! also, i have never seen more than two churches in NJ that say all of the responses during the Institution Narrative the same way. From the smallest response (Aleethos) Pistevomen (some churches say aleethos, some don't), to the largest Amen, Amen, Amen (english). The words, the tune, everything is different. there needs to be some way that is set in stone. i am sure that there is but seriously, no one is following it (at least my church is not)
i have to say, that's a bigger problem than what we are discussing here.
Also, do we say the following during the liturgy for Jona's fast and feast?:
- Nefsenti
- Entho te tishori
- Shar efnouti
Or are they just for Lent during the weekday liturgies?
If that is the case, then why do we NOT have a response for Psalm 150 for Kiahk (I'm referring to the tune that does not include "pimisi evol gen eviot)."
that's another thing that i spoke about before. they are simply two different ways: one fast with the response and the other long without it. both responses, even the one that is originally in arabic have Christ some how within the response. having a refrain in almost anything in our Church is a good thing (despite what some other may say against). It encourages everyone who is not signing or who can't for any reason to atleast say the refrain that is not hard to say at all.
it depends on how you accept the refrain to be. Remenkimi explained in another post (the one about the refrain of Epiphany) how the refrain can be considered a continuation of the psalm's paragraphs or a separate refrain. i like to believe it's separate. it declares a truth within the act of us praising God during that time. It is NOT a Lordly feast.......many get confused. there are only 7 major and 7 minor lordly feasts. the Cross is not one of them.....and that's why there is a lot of talk about it. within books, there isn't a response but many have been sying this: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2065
we in church been saying it forever with a psalm response. i actually spoke to albair once about this and he said that the synod is going towards establishing a response....mostly the one i have in the link. What Wagdi record is another response that is specifically about the Cross and doesn't include Christ in it. Jonah's fast is prayed in the lent rite so you do say these hymns. the only difference is the doxologies and the gospel responses. you say the ones set for Jonah.
Ok. Is the intercession quartet for Jona chanted preceding or proceeding the quartet for the apostles?
in church we say it after Saint Mark....but i am not sure if that is proper.
1. During apocalypse night we sing some psalms' sections but we never use a refrain. Why then does it have to be every other occasion we make up a refrain...
2. How do we sing psalm 150 joyous during laqqan Theophany and sing its refrain before the service starts!
Oujai
I just checked with several sources and they all confirm that the intercession quarter for Jona the prophet is chanted BEFORE the intercession quartet for the Apostles.
please provide those sources.
Two interesting points I've thought about:
1. During apocalypse night we sing some psalms' sections but we never use a refrain. Why then does it have to be every other occasion we make up a refrain...
it's not a psalm to have a refrain to. they are parts of psalms that lists what Christ have gone through. actually many priests don't like it because right before that, there is an annual psalm and gospel that are read...i doubt much ppl know about that. it's the reading of the Resurrection (i think from Saint Matthew's since we read Saint John's at night). so for the readings to "flow" right, you'd say the psalm and gospel, say all of panouti panouti and than the prophecies. we are coming out with a Bright Saturday book that should explain a lot.
2. How do we sing psalm 150 joyous during laqqan Theophany and sing its refrain before the service starts!
Oujai
The service started with midnight tasbeha for that liturgy.
Oujai
Listen to this. There is no refrain for psalm 150 in the weekday lent tune. After the long intro, it continues as the annual tune.
I don't get your first point. As for the second, I will argue that we started annual tasbeha for Bright Saturday and still we have to go back to edribian tunes, even if for half of the readings...
Oujai
let's leave the first point for now.
as for your response for the second part. when we do half edribi and half annual (in this specific order), we are transitioning into the feast but not yet (since it is annual we end with). even in the gospel that i spoke about in the other post, it is done in the annual tune and not festive yet. the first festive thing you say is the midnight.
[quote author=baempi link=topic=10595.msg129681#msg129681 date=1296861325]
http://www.coptichymns.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rare_Coptic_Hymns&file=index&q=f&f=/Muallim_Habib_Hanna_El_Mirahimi_Collection/Great_Lent/Weekday_Liturgies
Listen to this. There is no refrain for psalm 150 in the weekday lent tune. After the long intro, it continues as the annual tune.
i can't hear the file......despite that, it must be atleast prayed in lenten weekday tune. the refrain is something else. read my response in earlier posts.