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Protestant and Western influences in the Coptic Orthodox Church
I am thinking of the areas where such an influence can be seen and has had a negative impact.
I am thinking so far of:
1. Music and worship
2. Art
3. Spirituality
4. Theology
5. Order and Discipline
6. Technology
Another question is when and where pews and seats have been introduced into Coptic Orthodox churches. In the ancient West it was traditional for people to stand through the services and there were benches along the walls for the weak and infirm. I assumed this was the case in Egypt as well. But most of the images I have seen of Coptic Churches and those I know in the West all seem to have pews and seats. When and why did this take place?
Father Peter
I am thinking so far of:
1. Music and worship
2. Art
3. Spirituality
4. Theology
5. Order and Discipline
6. Technology
Another question is when and where pews and seats have been introduced into Coptic Orthodox churches. In the ancient West it was traditional for people to stand through the services and there were benches along the walls for the weak and infirm. I assumed this was the case in Egypt as well. But most of the images I have seen of Coptic Churches and those I know in the West all seem to have pews and seats. When and why did this take place?
Father Peter
Comments
Coptic churches are segregated too. thats different from churches anywhere else. Where did that come from?
It is normal practice for there NOT to be seats.
In my own little Church we only have seats around the outside of the building and most people stand for most of the service.
How are people able to prostrate themselves when there are pews?
Father Peter
I've always wondered about the pews thing, too. Some churches I've been to have them, some do not. The ones that do are usually converted from another church (previously Protestant or Catholic buildings that have been sold or rented to Orthodox Churches).
As far as the absence of them: How does this work for the elder, disabled, or infirm? The local Russian Orthodox Church has benches around the perimeter of the Church for such purposes. Would this also be the case for most Coptic churches? It is good to stand throughout the majority of the service, but I guess if that isn't possible for everybody it's not inherently wrong to have something for them to rest on for a few minutes, is it? (I'm assuming everyone who can physically stand for long periods wants to and does, and nobody's just being lazy)
I'll ask my mom about pews when I get home...she probably knows.
Let men be with men, and women with women. For now I need the example of Noah’s ark: in which were Noah and his sons, and his wife and his sons’ wives. For though the ark was one, and the door was shut, yet had things been suitably arranged. If the Church is shut, and you are all inside, yet let there be a separation, men with men, and women with women : lest the pretext of salvation become an occasion of destruction. Even if there be a fair pretext for sitting near each other, let passions be put away. Further, let the men when sitting have a useful book; and let one read, and another listen: and if there be no book, let one pray, and another speak something useful. And again let the party of young women sit together in like manner, either singing or reading quietly, so that their lips speak, but others’ ears catch not the sound: for I suffer not a woman to speak in the Church. And let the married woman also follow the same example, and pray; and let her lips move, but her voice be unheard, that a Samuel may come, and your barren soul give birth to the salvation of God who has heard your prayer; for this is the interpretation of the name Samuel.'
Childoforthodoxy
This is where the saying, 'The weak go to the wall' comes from.
Father Peter
>:(
oops, sorry, bad attitude, will try more :)
8)
Father Peter, I think every person will find an excuse to be counted with the weak, since there is no definite answer to who the weak are. My guess would be anyone under the age of 30 and older than 35 should stand next to the wall.
I can't believe St. Cyril said: "for I suffer not a woman to speak in the Church."
8. Being afraid to say Orthodoxy is better than every other religion/denomination
Do you mean that all the churches you normally worship in have pews?
It is normal practice for there NOT to be seats.
In my own little Church we only have seats around the outside of the building and most people stand for most of the service.
How are people able to prostrate themselves when there are pews?
Father Peter
These old forms of worship in the Coptic Orthodox Church is one of the things that has drawn my interest into understanding it. I find such practices to be one of humility, sincere devotion, and a link to the roots of the Christian faith. (I do understand that practices such as these can become mundane through constant repetition, but that should be a call for us to reflect on ourselves and why we have become so)
Fad.
The Cool Factor.
Lack of Discipline.
Church Illiterate--easily deceived.
I know that many monasteries and some ancient churches in Egypt do not have pews...please correct me if I am wrong. Also here in the United States, there is a Russian Orthodox church with no pews. I know that some poews in the back were added for the ederly...but im not sure how the rest came about.
For the 6 points:
1.Music and worship- we sometimes sing American songs, sometimes before a spiritual talk or something. In my opinion, i think its ok to do this...as long as it doesnt replace any form of our Church worship.
2. Art- all our icons in our church are all coptic icons :)
6. We do have alot of technology in our church but i honestly think its for the benefit for everyone...i really have benefited from the screens that show the words of the service.
I just wanted to express what we do!
I hope the church I end up in won't have screens. I've seen them in some YT videos of Coptic liturgy. They seem like a distraction, and a very easy way to not learn the responses. Maybe I'm too negative, but I want to learn that stuff, not stare at a screen! I do that too much at home/work already. :-[
I think its really great you wanna learn the traditions and hymns of the church. But you start to really appreciate the screens when you really want to follow along and your mind just keeps drifting...
BTW, I hope your "o" doesn't stand for Oprah.
Here's another take on those annoying screens (my perspective). How many Apostles are recognized by the Coptic Orthodox Church as the inner disciples and core to the Lord Jesus Christ? Please, just answer with a number. Don't bother with a long answer. This is not a profound question. Just a simple question.
You can answer also, if you want.
How can I come up with that conclusion?
The other six are covered by those screens.
If a wife were to come home and see that her husband covered her picture or wedding picture by a football team picture, what do you think the reprisal would be?
What if you covered your kids pictures with a picture of a nice car?
If those particular iconostasis icons are icons, and are consecrated, and are windows to heaven, what does that tell you about the end spiritual, theological, and symbolic effect?
I did explain. Continue to the ensuing sentences.
Epiphania,
What if there was an electrical outage, would all prayer cease?
Has your church put in generators to keep the screens going so that they can pray? Or possibly to keep those microphones going?
My Church has a generator, does yours? It's not my fault your church doesn't have a generator.
BTW, my church does not have any microphones except for the priest. Does yours?
I'm also curious: Am I stupid or are my words stupid? I just want clarification. Please be blunt and direct. Don't hold back any stupid comments.