[quote author=Marenhos Epchois link=topic=10390.msg129862#msg129862 date=1297028469] "But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also." - Genesis 38:9,10
[quote author=Khas. link=topic=10390.msg129863#msg129863 date=1297028671] [quote author=Marenhos Epchois link=topic=10390.msg129862#msg129862 date=1297028469] "But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also." - Genesis 38:9,10
enough said may God have mercy on us all!
It is a sin, proven by the bible...
I'm sorry guys. I think you're taking this verse out of context. When we did genesis in bible study, we talked about how this is Judah's second son. Jewish custom said that If a man died without heirs, his brother marries his widow and the first son is called under the first brother's name. Onan purposely tried not to give his elder brother any heirs. The Christ was promised to come from the tribe of Judah. He wanted it to be through his name and not his brother. That was what displeased the Lord. Onan's selfish action. That's what our bible study servant taught us.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=10390.msg129882#msg129882 date=1297035462] [quote author=Khas. link=topic=10390.msg129863#msg129863 date=1297028671] [quote author=Marenhos Epchois link=topic=10390.msg129862#msg129862 date=1297028469] "But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also." - Genesis 38:9,10
enough said may God have mercy on us all!
It is a sin, proven by the bible...
I'm sorry guys. I think you're taking this verse out of context. When we did genesis in bible study, we talked about how this is Judah's second son. Jewish custom said that If a man died without heirs, his brother marries his widow and the first son is called under the first brother's name. Onan purposely tried not to give his elder brother any heirs. The Christ was promised to come from the tribe of Judah. He wanted it to be through his name and not his brother. That was what displeased the Lord. Onan's selfish action. That's what our bible study servant taught us.
No. What displeased God is that Onan did what he did. The Bible verse is very clear.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=10390.msg129882#msg129882 date=1297035462] [quote author=Khas. link=topic=10390.msg129863#msg129863 date=1297028671] [quote author=Marenhos Epchois link=topic=10390.msg129862#msg129862 date=1297028469] "But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also." - Genesis 38:9,10
enough said may God have mercy on us all!
It is a sin, proven by the bible...
I'm sorry guys. I think you're taking this verse out of context. When we did genesis in bible study, we talked about how this is Judah's second son. Jewish custom said that If a man died without heirs, his brother marries his widow and the first son is called under the first brother's name. Onan purposely tried not to give his elder brother any heirs. The Christ was promised to come from the tribe of Judah. He wanted it to be through his name and not his brother. That was what displeased the Lord. Onan's selfish action. That's what our bible study servant taught us.
But that would be almost like the sin in this thread. Since the sin in this thread is selfish of course, and you still get pleasure out of it, it's wrong.
Well, I'm not saying its not a sin. I'm just telling you what I learned in bible study. abouna anthony says that anything that gives you sexual satisfaction outside a marriage relationship is wrong. The verses he talked about were from the new testament too. You can find it in the real dating series. I'm pretty sure...
Ok, I'm not a male and so I'm not familiar with male masturbation but I'm assuming the following (according to what I have read)... At the end of a sexual act, there is some sort of "emission." Because masturbation is a sexual act performed in place of sexual intercourse, I am assuming that masturbation involves some sort of "emission." In that case, this is why masturbation is a sin and displeasing to God and therefore, it would relate to the sin committed by Onan when he "emitted on the ground." That's why God killed him. Yes, masturbation is a very bad sin and is connected to the sin that Onan committed.
*sigh* will you PLEASE read the verse in context?? I'm not saying that you're wrong about this being a sin, you're just supporting it with the wrong verse! The bible says:
8 And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=10390.msg129891#msg129891 date=1297036580] *sigh* will you PLEASE read the verse in context?? I'm not saying that you're wrong about this being a sin, you're just supporting it with the wrong verse! The bible says:
8 And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also.
Sweetheart, I read the entire chapter, the entire book of Genesis, asked my dad about this particular chapter, AND asked my priest about it. They both told me the same thing. For your sake, I will ask my spiritual guide and another priest I talked to (who are both well-versed in Bible interpretations according to the church fathers). Maybe Fr. Peter can shed some light on this. Maybe I am wrong but this is what I was told.
Yes, Onan didn't want to give an heir to his brother. God was displeased with the action that he did, which was "emitting on the ground." Read my above post and tell me how I'm using the wrong verse to support the claim that it's a sin. And yes, Our Lord Jesus Christ was meant to come from the line of Judah (this was discussed in another thread)...this is why Judah ended up sleeping with his daughter-in-law.
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to say that you don't know what you are talking about. But we JUST had this bible study a few months ago. I'm just saying what my servants taught me, and they get their info from the writings of the fathers.
I don't know about the emitting thing, but I'm sure the entire situation displeased God. None of it sounds right.
Hmm maybe I misunderstood what I have been told...btw, you shouldn't believe everything you are told. Research everything in several places first. There was a servant who was head of the service at our church and he did a lecture on the deans of the School of Alexandria and he didn't quite have all the accurate information, sad to say...
Something we learn from the Church Fathers is that there is room for different views when interpeting scriptures (unless it affects dogma or theology). For example St. Cyril and St John Chrysostom have different views on certain passages (Sorry i cant give examples. I am on a mobile device.) This isn't a problem and actually helps us see more views on a particular passage.
My personal opinion is that God killed Onan because he acted out of greed in not giving his brother an heir (So he could get the inheritance instead.) This is also the view Fr. Tadros Malaty holds (page 259 in his commentary on Genesis). Fr. Thomas Hopko who is an Eastern Orthodox theologian and Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir Seminary also holds that it wasn't because he emitted on the ground. However this doesn't mean that noone can hold otherwise.
It might even be a mixture of both reasons. Either way it doesn't change that this is a terrible sin (Having struggled with it before, I can most certainly say it is a repulsive sin.) In fact both Fr. Tadros and Fr. Thomas Hopko also hold that it is a sin.
Unfortuntely I haven't found any patristics on this passage, but I'll post again if I do.
I don't think that we should view sin as a list of things we must not do, and then search the Scriptures to add to the list. This is a Jewish Law way of looking at things and is sub-Christian.
To sin is to turn our gaze from God. To sin is to serve self rather than God. To sin is to choose other than God.
But in the case of this passage. I don't think that it has anything to do with the issue of the original post. Almost certainly Onan was not committing the sin which has been implied.
The scripture (using the LXX of course) describes how Onan, or Aunan, would regularly go in to Thamar...
But because Aunan knew that the offspring would not be his, it would come about that he would pour out his seed upon the ground when he would go in to his brother's wife so that he would not give offspring to his brother. Now it seemed evil in the sight of God that he did this, and he put him to death also.
This shows us that he visited Thamar more than once, and it suggests to me that they engaged in sexual activity and he interrupted their activity and spilled his seed on the ground. He was using a form of contraception rather than masturbation.
The use of the word 'because' seems to me to show that the nature of the offence was his unwillingness to produce any heirs for his brother so that all of the inheritance of his fathers would belong to him and his own children. It is the decision of his heart that is the cause of hos condemnation. What he did was only an expression of his greed and selfishness.
There are lots of reasons why masturbation is harmful and sinful, but as Christians we don't need to go through the Bible finding texts to convince us something should be on the list of sins or not. There is no list of sins! Sin is when we turn to self and away from God, THAT is a much more difficult thing to face up to and to seek grace for. We may live an entirely selfish and therefore sinful life without 'doing' many sins at all. We could even be very active in Church. But if our hearts are not always directed towards God then we have sinned even if we have done nothing.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10390.msg129925#msg129925 date=1297072078] There are lots of reasons why masturbation is harmful and sinful, but as Christians we don't need to go through the Bible finding texts to convince us something should be on the list of sins or not. There is no list of sins! Sin is when we turn to self and away from God, THAT is a much more difficult thing to face up to and to seek grace for. We may live an entirely selfish and therefore sinful life without 'doing' many sins at all. We could even be very active in Church. But if our hearts are not always directed towards God then we have sinned even if we have done nothing.
Couldn't agree more. That conception of sin is ritualistic and borderline paganish - Christ taught us to look at the heart and true significance of things, rather than rely on laws or rituals.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10390.msg129925#msg129925 date=1297072078] The use of the word 'because' seems to me to show that the nature of the offence was his unwillingness to produce any heirs for his brother so that all of the inheritance of his fathers would belong to him and his own children. It is the decision of his heart that is the cause of hos condemnation. What he did was only an expression of his greed and selfishness.
I haven't verified the sources for this, but I think it's worth mentioning nonetheless - I've read that the Jewish pre-scientific understanding of human reproduction was that the male seed contained the entirety of the unborn child - the mother's womb was just an 'incubating space', since they had no conception of the female egg being necessary as well. For this reason, masturbation, or the type of contraception used by Onan here, were viewed not as sexual sins but as murder, exactly like abortion. This could reflect on the severity of the sin being described - not only is he being selfish, but from the author's perspective, he is also murdering his own children.
Comments
"But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also." - Genesis 38:9,10
enough said
may God have mercy on us all!
It is a sin, proven by the bible...
[quote author=Marenhos Epchois link=topic=10390.msg129862#msg129862 date=1297028469]
"But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also." - Genesis 38:9,10
enough said
may God have mercy on us all!
It is a sin, proven by the bible...
I'm sorry guys. I think you're taking this verse out of context. When we did genesis in bible study, we talked about how this is Judah's second son. Jewish custom said that If a man died without heirs, his brother marries his widow and the first son is called under the first brother's name. Onan purposely tried not to give his elder brother any heirs. The Christ was promised to come from the tribe of Judah. He wanted it to be through his name and not his brother. That was what displeased the Lord. Onan's selfish action. That's what our bible study servant taught us.
[quote author=Khas. link=topic=10390.msg129863#msg129863 date=1297028671]
[quote author=Marenhos Epchois link=topic=10390.msg129862#msg129862 date=1297028469]
"But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also." - Genesis 38:9,10
enough said
may God have mercy on us all!
It is a sin, proven by the bible...
I'm sorry guys. I think you're taking this verse out of context. When we did genesis in bible study, we talked about how this is Judah's second son. Jewish custom said that If a man died without heirs, his brother marries his widow and the first son is called under the first brother's name. Onan purposely tried not to give his elder brother any heirs. The Christ was promised to come from the tribe of Judah. He wanted it to be through his name and not his brother. That was what displeased the Lord. Onan's selfish action. That's what our bible study servant taught us.
No. What displeased God is that Onan did what he did. The Bible verse is very clear.
[quote author=Khas. link=topic=10390.msg129863#msg129863 date=1297028671]
[quote author=Marenhos Epchois link=topic=10390.msg129862#msg129862 date=1297028469]
"But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also." - Genesis 38:9,10
enough said
may God have mercy on us all!
It is a sin, proven by the bible...
I'm sorry guys. I think you're taking this verse out of context. When we did genesis in bible study, we talked about how this is Judah's second son. Jewish custom said that If a man died without heirs, his brother marries his widow and the first son is called under the first brother's name. Onan purposely tried not to give his elder brother any heirs. The Christ was promised to come from the tribe of Judah. He wanted it to be through his name and not his brother. That was what displeased the Lord. Onan's selfish action. That's what our bible study servant taught us.
But that would be almost like the sin in this thread. Since the sin in this thread is selfish of course, and you still get pleasure out of it, it's wrong.
At the end of a sexual act, there is some sort of "emission." Because masturbation is a sexual act performed in place of sexual intercourse, I am assuming that masturbation involves some sort of "emission." In that case, this is why masturbation is a sin and displeasing to God and therefore, it would relate to the sin committed by Onan when he "emitted on the ground." That's why God killed him. Yes, masturbation is a very bad sin and is connected to the sin that Onan committed.
8 And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also.
*sigh* will you PLEASE read the verse in context?? I'm not saying that you're wrong about this being a sin, you're just supporting it with the wrong verse! The bible says:
8 And Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother’s wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also.
Sweetheart, I read the entire chapter, the entire book of Genesis, asked my dad about this particular chapter, AND asked my priest about it. They both told me the same thing. For your sake, I will ask my spiritual guide and another priest I talked to (who are both well-versed in Bible interpretations according to the church fathers). Maybe Fr. Peter can shed some light on this. Maybe I am wrong but this is what I was told.
Yes, Onan didn't want to give an heir to his brother. God was displeased with the action that he did, which was "emitting on the ground." Read my above post and tell me how I'm using the wrong verse to support the claim that it's a sin. And yes, Our Lord Jesus Christ was meant to come from the line of Judah (this was discussed in another thread)...this is why Judah ended up sleeping with his daughter-in-law.
I don't know about the emitting thing, but I'm sure the entire situation displeased God. None of it sounds right.
My personal opinion is that God killed Onan because he acted out of greed in not giving his brother an heir (So he could get the inheritance instead.) This is also the view Fr. Tadros Malaty holds (page 259 in his commentary on Genesis). Fr. Thomas Hopko who is an Eastern Orthodox theologian and Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir Seminary also holds that it wasn't because he emitted on the ground. However this doesn't mean that noone can hold otherwise.
It might even be a mixture of both reasons. Either way it doesn't change that this is a terrible sin (Having struggled with it before, I can most certainly say it is a repulsive sin.) In fact both Fr. Tadros and Fr. Thomas Hopko also hold that it is a sin.
Unfortuntely I haven't found any patristics on this passage, but I'll post again if I do.
Please pray for my weak self
To sin is to turn our gaze from God. To sin is to serve self rather than God. To sin is to choose other than God.
But in the case of this passage. I don't think that it has anything to do with the issue of the original post. Almost certainly Onan was not committing the sin which has been implied.
The scripture (using the LXX of course) describes how Onan, or Aunan, would regularly go in to Thamar...
But because Aunan knew that the offspring would not be his, it would come about that he would pour out his seed upon the ground when he would go in to his brother's wife so that he would not give offspring to his brother. Now it seemed evil in the sight of God that he did this, and he put him to death also.
This shows us that he visited Thamar more than once, and it suggests to me that they engaged in sexual activity and he interrupted their activity and spilled his seed on the ground. He was using a form of contraception rather than masturbation.
The use of the word 'because' seems to me to show that the nature of the offence was his unwillingness to produce any heirs for his brother so that all of the inheritance of his fathers would belong to him and his own children. It is the decision of his heart that is the cause of hos condemnation. What he did was only an expression of his greed and selfishness.
There are lots of reasons why masturbation is harmful and sinful, but as Christians we don't need to go through the Bible finding texts to convince us something should be on the list of sins or not. There is no list of sins! Sin is when we turn to self and away from God, THAT is a much more difficult thing to face up to and to seek grace for. We may live an entirely selfish and therefore sinful life without 'doing' many sins at all. We could even be very active in Church. But if our hearts are not always directed towards God then we have sinned even if we have done nothing.
Father Peter
There are lots of reasons why masturbation is harmful and sinful, but as Christians we don't need to go through the Bible finding texts to convince us something should be on the list of sins or not. There is no list of sins! Sin is when we turn to self and away from God, THAT is a much more difficult thing to face up to and to seek grace for. We may live an entirely selfish and therefore sinful life without 'doing' many sins at all. We could even be very active in Church. But if our hearts are not always directed towards God then we have sinned even if we have done nothing.
Couldn't agree more. That conception of sin is ritualistic and borderline paganish - Christ taught us to look at the heart and true significance of things, rather than rely on laws or rituals.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10390.msg129925#msg129925 date=1297072078]
The use of the word 'because' seems to me to show that the nature of the offence was his unwillingness to produce any heirs for his brother so that all of the inheritance of his fathers would belong to him and his own children. It is the decision of his heart that is the cause of hos condemnation. What he did was only an expression of his greed and selfishness.
I haven't verified the sources for this, but I think it's worth mentioning nonetheless - I've read that the Jewish pre-scientific understanding of human reproduction was that the male seed contained the entirety of the unborn child - the mother's womb was just an 'incubating space', since they had no conception of the female egg being necessary as well. For this reason, masturbation, or the type of contraception used by Onan here, were viewed not as sexual sins but as murder, exactly like abortion. This could reflect on the severity of the sin being described - not only is he being selfish, but from the author's perspective, he is also murdering his own children.
God bless and pray for me