The Importance of the Eucharist

Zoxsasi

Hello,

I'd like to know:

* What is the importance of Holy Communion in our lives?
* What happens if we do not take the Holy Communion, lest alone believe that this IS the Body and Blood of Christ?

* How do we explain to protestants and messianic jews that our interpretation is correct: that Christ, although He said "Do this in remembrance of Me" meant us to actually consecrate the bread and wine to partake of His Holy Body and Blood.

* What proofs (scriptural proofs) are there for us to show that indeed this is the Holy Body and Blood, and we do partake of it.

Some Messianic jews disagree with the idea of the Eucharist, saying that Christ only asked us to do so in Remembrance of Him. However, I fail totally to understand what we gain by simply doing things in remembrance of Him. Why not sit down, have a coffee, and just each person think or remember Jesus Christ.

There is a strong argument (in my opinion) that they've completely misunderstood this.

For us, as Orthodox Christians, or even Catholics, the Eucharist is the center of the Christian life. It is not treated as if it is just One of the Sacraments, but our entire praise/worship/focus in the liturgy is centered around this.

* What is the philosophy of the Orthodox Church concerning having the Eucharist.

I'm a bit disappointed, to say the least, that the book on Comparative THeology had absolutely no mention of this issue ; it is well known that this is the ultimate point of difference between us.

Please no guessing. I will use this thread to help answer a few messianic jews whom I know. They are Rabbis with PhDs in theology (believe it or not), and so, the content posted really must be accurate.

I am fully aware that the early Church practiced this sacrament, and they took it seriously. I have 100's of sermons by John Chrysostom about slothfullness before even taking the Holy Communion. Why have Messianic jews and protestants distanced themselves from the early Church? However, I really feel the innate need to explain this to them for 2 main reasons:

a) They work hard (especially protestants) in telling everyone that we are heretical over this issue. I think their ignorance is dangerous and their loud voices lead others in the same path of ignorance.
b) The Church has not yet published a concise book explaining the differences between herself and other denominations concerning such issues.

joeg

Well, the key chapter in the Bible which talks about this issue is John 6, from verse 22 onwards. I'll post the whole chapter here for convenience and for contextual purposes. The bold is mine, but please read the whole chapter:

John 6
1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near. 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?” 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.
7 Philip answered Him, “Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little.”
8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, said to Him, 9 “There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?”
10 Then Jesus said, “Make the people sit down.” Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples[a] to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted. 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.” 13 Therefore they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves which were left over by those who had eaten. 14 Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.
16 Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea, 17 got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them. 18 Then the sea arose because a great wind was blowing. 19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.22 On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered,[c] and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone— 23 however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks— 24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?”
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e]Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”[i]
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10092.msg123272#msg123272 date=1291368666]
Hello,

I'd like to know:

What is the importance of Holy Communion in our lives?
What happens if we do not take the Holy Communion, lest alone believe that this IS the Body and Blood of Christ?

Then we are dead spiritually: "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." (John 6:53).

How do we explain to protestants and messianic jews that our interpretation is correct: that Christ, although He said "Do this in remembrance of Me" meant us to actually consecrate the bread and wine to partake of His Holy Body and Blood.

I'm not sure "consecrate" is the right word here. It is the action of the Holy Spirit that changes the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. But perhaps I'm mistaking what you said for "sanctify." Never mind, it's off the point.
The verse that does this, I have highlighted in bold and labelled red: "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." (John 6:55). How can this verse be interpreted in any other way than "Christ's flesh is food indeed?"

What proofs (scriptural proofs) are there for us to show that indeed this is the Holy Body and Blood, and we do partake of it.

John 6 (and more stuff in the other Gospels).

joeg

Some Messianic jews disagree with the idea of the Eucharist, saying that Christ only asked us to do so in Remembrance of Him. However, I fail totally to understand what we gain by simply doing things in remembrance of Him. Why not sit down, have a coffee, and just each person think or remember Jesus Christ.

There is a strong argument (in my opinion) that they've completely misunderstood this.

For us, as Orthodox Christians, or even Catholics, the Eucharist is the center of the Christian life. It is not treated as if it is just One of the Sacraments, but our entire praise/worship/focus in the liturgy is centered around this.

Totally agree with this. Read this extract from The Sacrament of the Holy Communion (the Eucharist) by H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy (which you can download here):

The Blood of Christ is the New Covenant

We find Moses’ actions symbolic of the New Testament.  Instead of the animal (oxen) blood offered in the old covenant, “Who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord” (Ex 24: 5), the new covenant is through the Blood of Christ.  All Christians believe that Christ’s Blood is the New Covenant, which is between God and His saved redeemed people who believed in His Crucifixion and Resurrection.  Our Lord Jesus Christ said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (Jn 14: 15). We also need to understand that the blood of the covenant includes a commitment or an automatic pledge of our obligation to fulfill the commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He Himself offered the blood of the New Covenant to His disciples on the night of His passion.  The same blood shed on the cross is the same that Christ offered to His disciples on Covenant Thursday.  This is why it is called Covenant Thursday, being the Covenant between God and His people.

Our teacher Saint Paul wrote, “For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed [to passion and crucifixion] took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.  In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood.  This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.” (1Co 11:23-26). We realize here that our Lord Jesus Christ did not speak merely about blood but related it to a cup. The same applies to what was mentioned in the gospel according to Saint Luke: “This cup is the new covenant in My blood... do this in remembrance of Me” (Lk 22:20, 19). 


The Cup and the Blood

Here we notice that Christ did not only speak of the blood, but linked the blood to the cup .  He did this, lest anyone (like Protestants, etc.) argue that the new covenant is solely Christ’s actual Blood shed on the cross, in no way linking it to the Blood the Orthodox celebrate in the Divine Liturgy.  One response to this argument is that Christ did not simply say this blood is the new covenant, but said, “This cup is the new covenant”.  Furthermore, He continues, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood”, since certainly His Blood is the essence!


How the Church Discovers and Enjoys the Blessings of Salvation

Where is the covenant the Lord made with His people, that His church may experience and encounter salvation, if not in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharistic?!  Every time we celebrate the Divine Liturgy Christ’s Blood is present in the cup.  Therefore, He said, “This cup is the new covenant”. 

We live the new covenant. It is not a forgotten, concluded, or considered a historical memorial, but a living, vital, and continuous one.  Therefore He said, “This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me”.  Saint Paul further clarified saying, “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes” (1 Cor 11: 26).  This is why I say it is a living memorial, not simply symbolic.  We proclaim His death because the sacrifice of the cross through His Body and Blood is truly present in our midst.  If Christ’s Blood, which was shed on the cross, is truly present, could there be a stronger memorial!


Is It Symbolic?

We proclaim His death by drinking from this cup, because we believe that it is truly Blood, in element wine.  If we do believe that it is true blood, than consequently we proclaim His death.  What is in the cup?  If what is in the cup is not true blood, then how can we proclaim His death?!  Saint Paul wrote, “I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say.  [And I also say to you, judge for yourselves what I write]  The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?” (1 Cor 10: 15-16).

What will we bless if it is symbolic?  Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night of His passions, blessed the cup, as Saint Matthew writes, “And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, Take, eat; this is My body.  Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink from it, all of you.  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matt 26:26).  If Our Lord Jesus Christ, Himself said “This is My blood”, who dares claim that this is only symbolic!  Do we not believe the sincerity of our Lord Jesus Christ’s words?

How can the symbol forgive sins?!  Our Lord Jesus Christ said, “Which is shed for many for the remission of sins”, therefore we believe that we partake of our Lord’s Body and Blood for the remission of sins.  Saint Paul says, “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death”, therefore, the effect of Christ’s life-giving death, which abolished death, races through our innermost being when we partake of this blood.  He continues, “Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.  [If it were not true Body and Blood, why would he be guilty?]  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.  For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.” (1 Cor 11: 27-29)  What does “not discerning the Lord's body” mean, except a person who is unable to discern whether this is true Body and Blood, or simply a symbolic commemoration.


Who Officiates This Mystery?

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?”  Here, who is the one giving the blessing, and who is the one asking the question?  The answer to both inquiries is Saint Paul the apostle.  We read in the Book of Acts, “Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight .  Now when he had … broken bread and eaten, and talked a long while, even till daybreak, he departed …And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers” (Acts 20: 7, 11; 2: 42).  This deed requires the presence of one of the apostles, their successors, or at least the priests for performing the rites of the Divine Liturgy.

“The cup of blessing which we bless”, who will bless?  Saint Paul writes, “Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God” (1 Cor 4: 1).  Thus he answers: we are the “stewards of the mysteries of God!”  What does this mean?  Saint Paul and the apostolic successors are commissioned to perform the sacrament that our Lord Jesus Christ instituted during the Lord’s Supper.  “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?”


The Altar of the New Covenant

Some inquire, “Is there an altar in the New Covenant beside the cross of Christ?”  We reply that the altar of the New Covenant is the altar in the church, which is the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.  The sayings of the Fathers confirm this, but let us first continue with Saint Paul. 

Saint Paul writes, “Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?”  [In the Jewish religious rites those who eat of the sacrifices of the Old Covenant, are partakers of the altar.]  What am I saying then?  That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything?  [He is trying to say that there is a strong relationship between an idol (considered a demonic god), his altar, and the sacrifice offered on that altar.]  Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God,  [All who worship idols offer sacrifices to demons, not to God] and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.  [Whoever partakes of a sacrifice to an idol is in fellowship with the demon, because the sacrifice, and the god to whom it was offered, maintain an actual, persistent, fellowship.]  You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons;  [The cup of the Lord is the Holy Communion.   The cup of demons is the intoxicant imbibed while eating the sacrifice.]” (1 Cor 10: 18 - 21).

He continues, “You cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.” (1 Cor 10: 21)  So, what is the Lord’s table?  He began with partakers of the altar, progressing to, that an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything, so, he defines the table of demons as altars of idols.  He said, those who eat of the sacrifices are partakers of the altar.  When he began to speak of the Lord’s table, he said, You cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.  An altar of idols (where sacrifices for idols are offered) or the table of demons, and the Lord’s altar is the Lord’s table.  “Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?  Are we stronger than He?” (1 Cor 10: 22).  From this passage we infer that the table is itself the altar, therefore, in the holy liturgy, during the prayer of Thanksgiving we say, “All envy, all temptation, all the works of Satan… take them away from us, and from all Your people, and from this table, and from Yours Holy place.”

In Coptic we say, “nem  `ebol \a tai  `trapeza qai”, here derived from the Greek term tra,peza: meaning table.  Our altar in the church is the table of the Lord.  This altar is the altar of the cross, or it is the cross, because we do not repeat the sacrifice of the cross, but this is an extension to it. 


The Great Mystery of Godliness

The Crucifixion Sacrifice does not only flow forward, but also backward, as our Lord Jesus Christ Himself offered up His own Body and Blood on the night of His passions, prior to crucifixion.  The Thanksgiving offering or the Eucharist Sacrifice extends beyond the limits of time, since it is a superior excelling mystery and Divine sacrament.  Therefore we call it, “This great Mystery of godliness” in the Divine Liturgy. 

Saint John Chrysostom (347–407 BC) says the following, “What then? do not we offer every day? We offer indeed, but making a remembrance of His death, and this [remembrance] is one and not many.  How is it one, and not many? Inasmuch as that [Sacrifice] was once for all offered, [and] carried into the Holy of Holies. This is a figure of that [sacrifice] and this remembrance of that. For we always offer the same, not one sheep now and tomorrow another, but always the same thing: so that the sacrifice is one.”  [Do not think that when two sacrifices are simultaneously being offered up, one in Cairo and the other in Alexandria, that they are two different sacrifices?  Or that they are two different lambs?  They are one lamb; “The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn 1:29).]  And yet by this reasoning, since the offering is made in many places, are there many Christs? but Christ is one everywhere, being complete here and complete there also, one Body. As then while offered in many places, He is one body and not many bodies; so also [He is] one sacrifice.”

Dude, the whole article is good stuff, read the whole thing.

What is the philosophy of the Orthodox Church concerning having the Eucharist.

I'm a bit disappointed, to say the least, that the book on Comparative THeology had absolutely no mention of this issue ; it is well known that this is the ultimate point of difference between us.

Please no guessing. I will use this thread to help answer a few messianic jews whom I know. They are Rabbis with PhDs in theology (believe it or not), and so, the content posted really must be accurate.

I am fully aware that the early Church practiced this sacrament, and they took it seriously. I have 100's of sermons by John Chrysostom about slothfullness before even taking the Holy Communion. Why have Messianic jews and protestants distanced themselves from the early Church? However, I really feel the innate need to explain this to them for 2 main reasons:

a) They work hard (especially protestants) in telling everyone that we are heretical over this issue. I think their ignorance is dangerous and their loud voices lead others in the same path of ignorance.
b) The Church has not yet published a concise book explaining the differences between herself and other denominations concerning such issues.

I'll leave the philosophy to someone more learned than me. And the same goes for the history. On the Protestant thing though, I'll agree. And I'm sure that there are books out there that detail our beliefs against those of other denominations - as you said maybe not in one book. It would be quite useful if it was all compiled in one place.

Hope that was of some use.

pray for me

joe

Zoxsasi

JosephGabriel,

I love you.

Thanks

joeg

No worries old timer  ;)

Zoxsasi

Please please feel free to add to what Joseph has written.

I will just take all posts and create a word document to send it to my Messianic Rabbi friends who have asked for this.

We have an agreement not to proslytise each other, but to just state where our dogmas and beliefs come from.

But what is important is the NECESSITY for the Holy Communion. We need to discuss that more, and show this.

I'm in a priviledged position to answer them as their hearts are open to learn about our faith. Just as they were jewish and their hearts did not accept Christ, I pray that they have the humility to see what the early Church was doing.

Thanks