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Monks and sex!
So if someone has sex and then like years later he wanted to become a monk would he be allowed?
Comments
St Mary of Egypt (If you still have not watched the saint video..consider to..a great one),St Moses the strong..and many others..
So if someone has sex and then like years later he wanted to become a monk would he be allowed?
having sex out marriage is a sin.......when you confess sins they are forgiven and forgotten.....you'd just have to deal with their consequences.
having sex out marriage is a sin.......when you confess sins they are forgiven and forgotten.....you'd just have to deal with their consequences.
What consequences? Adulterers become virgins as Christ said, so I'm not aware of any.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9431.msg116268#msg116268 date=1278626309]
having sex out marriage is a sin.......when you confess sins they are forgiven and forgotten.....you'd just have to deal with their consequences.
What consequences? Adulterers become virgins as Christ said, so I'm not aware of any.
a consequence of a sin is differnt than the sin itself.....the action is different than the reaction. We, as the sons of Adam and Eve, do not inherit the original sin (their sin of disobedience) but we inherit its consequence: the shutting of the doors of Paradise and the rule of the Devil over us.
So in sex for example: a couple sinned....the repented, confessed, God forgave and forgot. But now we find that the girls is pregnant...the consequence of HAVING SEX.....now what happens?! do we allow abortion?....NO!! the Church doesn't approve of that action in this case. Now the couples have to deal with that child. that is the consequences of pregnancy that is also a consequence of sex. As i said Action & Reaction
.. the master of that servant came on a day he was not looking for him
virginity is asked of the monk after he takes the oath, if you look in the oath of the Nazirites, "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: When either man or woman shall clearly utter a vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to consecrate himself unto the LORD"
so if I have sex, and go seek monastic life, will God accept me in that life?
as mentioned in the 7 and 4 in kiahk, and in the tamgeed of saint Moses the black and strong we say, "el toba laha maf3ool, tega3al el zany batool" (Repentance does work, it causes the adulterers to become virgins!), and by no means do I mean the girl will grow a hymen, and the guys would have right to tell a girl he's about to marry that he never had previous experiences. also remember, the remembrance of sin causes God to forget it, but the forgetfulness of your sins, will cause God to remember it. now if you remember all your sins, and throw them at the feet of you father of confession, and anyone really... and due to your repentance (true repentance) you achieve the virginal heart, and ask to become a monk, can anyone say no?!
they only might say "no" due to the fact that a hard life, will be much harder!
did saint Moses have sex? did saint Mary of Egypt have sex? (she had so much sex, she said she wanted to leave Egypt to get more new faces) did David have sex? many saints fell in the sin, and came back, Saint Augustine when he became a bishop, had to take his child of sin with him. But our God is a loving God, He forgave those who fell, and they proved themselves.
Saint Moses the black, went 11 times to his father of confession in one night... that's a span of maybe 4 hours, because the devil kept fighting him with thoughts in his cell. so he struggled, and we call him strong, because his struggle not because of his body.
Saint Mary of Egypt who the title of a prostitute does not suffice to her life when she was in the world, right when she felt God, she sought Him, and ran to the desert to live her life... and the one who loved sex, as she said, for the sake of her love for the action, when she was naked and saw a man, she ran away from him, and would not talk to him until she was covered!
David the Prophet, his poetry of guilt till this day lives... we use it everyday in our lives...
Saint Augustine, when he found God, he couldn't let go... that a girl from his "past" came and knocked on his door, when he knew it was her, he asked who was she looking for, when she said Augustine, he replied with Augustine is dead!
now... are you dead?!
are you dead from sins that you love?
are you dead from the people you love?
are you dead from the life you love?
are you dead from the glory you love?
are you dead from this world?!
so if the sin comes and attacks you with her memory, are you going to be able to fight or just give in?
if the people of your past come knocking on your door are you going to be able to say, "Bishoy" (your name) is dead, or are you going to open the door?
are you going to think of the life before repentance, and think to yourself how much you wish you can go back if even for a minute?
if one comes and gives you glory, are you going to be able to give it to where it belongs, or keep it?
Monastic life is not easy, and if you do that sin it will be MUCH MUCH harder...
Neshkor Allah... Akhadna el baraka!
Superman... your awesome! lol
We, as the sons of Adam and Eve, do not inherit the original sin (their sin of disobedience) but we inherit its consequence: the shutting of the doors of Paradise and the rule of the Devil over us.
I never knew that, I thought we inherited that sin...whats your source?. If a baby dies the second after baptism, it would go straight to heaven. But what if a baby dies before it gets baptized? Are you saying its sinless and goes to heaven?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9431.msg116276#msg116276 date=1278629680]So in sex for example: a couple sinned....the repented, confessed, God forgave and forgot. But now we find that the girls is pregnant...the consequence of HAVING SEX.....now what happens?! do we allow abortion?....NO!! the Church doesn't approve of that action in this case. Now the couples have to deal with that child. that is the consequences of pregnancy that is also a consequence of sex. As i said Action & Reaction
So... what... if... they... used a condom? I doubt your action & reaction claim. I say sins don't necessarily have any earthly consequences if one is repentant.
Anyways, back on topic... if one has sex, is that disclosed in the marriage papers or the church, etc? Or can a person just secretly tell their fiance or w/e about it?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9431.msg116276#msg116276 date=1278629680]
We, as the sons of Adam and Eve, do not inherit the original sin (their sin of disobedience) but we inherit its consequence: the shutting of the doors of Paradise and the rule of the Devil over us.
I never knew that, I thought we inherited that sin...whats your source?. If a baby dies the second after baptism, it would go straight to heaven. But what if a baby dies before it gets baptized? Are you saying its sinless and goes to heaven?
who said it's sinless?! we say in the litany of the departed:
"Each one ... O Lord repose and forgive them. For no one is pure and without blemish even though his life on earth be a single day."
A baby who dies before they are baptized go somewhere, but just not Paradise....or even Hades as some father believe. I have heard from my priest before they they might go to heaven but with blind eyes and hearts....not to enjoy its joy as those who are worthy. So... what... if... they... used a condom? I doubt your action & reaction claim.
and....really?! you are using this argument against having sex. then why not everyone have sex we khalas and live in cities filled with just fornicators and adulteresses?! I am sorry for sounding harsh but what you are saying is just too weak of an argument.
Nothing guarantees 100% protection.....when God wants something He gets.....would it make any difference to tell you that my three brothers were all conceived while my parents were having protective sex...even though that is really not allowed. You say that and i don't believe it because it's simple un-human. think about you're actions and you'll see that. for example:
I come and hit your car by mistake. I come out of the car, i say "I am sorry, i am really really sorry. Let me give you enough money to fix that damage on your car." you take the money, i leave and that's it....realize that this is the nicest scenario i can think of right now. Now did your car fix itself?! Weren't you mad the second i hit your car?! Now that i give you the money, were you fully happy of what happened?!
I doubt you're answer is yes.....now, even though i gave you the money to fix the car, you'd still have to spend the time to fix the car.....and the car itself will NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN even though from the outside, after it is fixed, it might do.
So i did my best to satisfy you...and i was trully sorry that i gave you the money right there on the spot to not suffer with dealing with the insurance....BUT THE CAR WILL STILL NEVER BE THE SAME and you yourself will not think the same way of me.
this is loooongg, but i think it explains what i mean. what ever you confess to abouna will NEVER and NEVER again be reveled to ANYONE....this is a very serious matter....a priest will literally be excommunicated if he did.
but it is recommended to say the truth to the person you'll live the rest of your life with.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9431.msg116330#msg116330 date=1278733657]
Nothing guarantees 100% protection.....when God wants something He gets.....would it make any difference to tell you that my three brothers were all conceived while my parents were having protective sex...even though that is really not allowed.
i thought the church fathers were split on this issue?? i mean...seriously...everyone has a different situation...if a couple wants to have sexual relations but not necessarily kids at that point in their life, it should be allowed, shouldn't it?
that's kind of a huge topic that i wouldn't like to discuss on this specific thread......but that comment was just said to confirm a thought. this issue is within a valid holy marriage....the issue in this thread is sex as a sin; fornication or adultery.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9431.msg116330#msg116330 date=1278733657]
Nothing guarantees 100% protection.....when God wants something He gets.....would it make any difference to tell you that my three brothers were all conceived while my parents were having protective sex...even though that is really not allowed.
i thought the church fathers were split on this issue?? i mean...seriously...everyone has a different situation...if a couple wants to have sexual relations but not necessarily kids at that point in their life, it should be allowed, shouldn't it?
The coptic church at this point in time allows contraception's to be used so that they can decide when they are ready financially, physically and emotionally to have children.
what if the couple decide not to have children at all? i've heard that is looked down upon in the church...
no......many say that and some even say that the Church pray for them to have sex as a must...but that is wrong. In marriage, sex is not the only thing. Therefore it doesn't make any difference if you have children or not or even, a step farther, if you choose to have sex or not
But, if they sinned knowingly, and they were already baptised, and they sinned this way, then it will be harder. It will be harder SIMPLY because that person would have had a spiritual father who would have observed all this, and most likely recommended that they do not become a monk (depending on what their assessment was).
Take for example Fr. Barsoum. I know this is quite a contentious / controversial issue in our Church, but I think it is the BEST example to show how good our Coptic Orthodox Church is:
This man, whilst a monk exhibited tendencies, behaviours, perhaps shared some thoughts with fellow monks or his superior, and upon this, he was de-frocked. This is great. This means that our system of discipleship is working.
The Catholic system seems a bit flawed.. or it is not working. They should have filtered out anyone with immoral tendencies where there was an adament mind embroiled in these tendencies from the priesthood. They fail TIME AND TIME again in this, and it is simply due to having the right discipleship.
Therefore, it is in the hands of his spiritual father.