Hi,
What is the view of the Coptic Orthodox Church concerning working for the CIA? Espionnage etc?
What if your job was to kill for your country?
Would abouna be OK with that?
I mean, how does the Church view such work??
What about the military? If the Church is against the war in Iraq - how does it regard the position of soldiers who are Coptic Orthodox Americans who are killing Iraqis?
Would the Church condone such jobs for Copts who serve their country?
Comments
I hope I helped
Pray for me
Lostsinner
We can look at his reply in two manners:
1. He gave the soldiers because the Messiah hadn’t come yet as the next verse states: “Everyone was expecting the Messiah to come soon…” Luke3:14. In such case the verse Love your enemy hadn’t been delivered yet. However this approach would leave us with an even bigger question “Does the latest verse abrogate the previous ones?” Or is it as Jesus said perfecting what was before.
2. A simpler alternate would be “Yes, John taught it is okay to be a soldier and complete all the duties of a soldier.” Which I personally agree with.
I am glad ‘Lostsinner’ mentioned St. George. Our church also commemorates the martyrs of Theban Legion. The whole legion, 6,600 soldiers were martyred under Caesar Maximian in the year 303 AD because they wouldn’t bow for Roman gods and persecute other Christians. They could have used there armors against the emperor but the said “We prefer to die upright than to live stained.” Here is their letter to the emperor:
“Great Caesar, we are your soldiers, and at the same time we are God’s slaves. We owe you our military service, but our prime allegiance we owe to God. From you we receive our daily wages; from Him our eternal reward. Great Caesar, we cannot obey any order if it runs counter to God’s commands. If your orders coincide with God’s commands we will certainly obey them; if not, “we ought to obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29), for our loyalty to Him surpasses all other loyalties. We are not rebels: if we were we would defend ourselves for we have our weapons. But we prefer to die upright than to live stained. As Christians we will serve you. But we will not relinquish our Faith in our Lord, and this we openly declare.”
Yours in Christ
Theopilus
But let's focus on each case. Let's take the Coptic Soldier living in California who has been asked to go to Iraq to fight against the resistance there. The soldier knows very well in his heart that the war is wrong, and it was only for Israel; a regime that he does not agree with, neither is Church.
What does he do?
What if he's faced in a position where he must kill an Iraqi? What then?
What should he do??
I do not believe at all that is the case. It seems to me that the war was prosecuted very successfully and cleanly, and that it has been the follow up which has been poorly executed. It also does not seem to me that any of the Coalition forces are just going out and shooting Iraqis. The vast majority of Iraqi deaths have been caused by Muslims of various nationalities.
If the follow up had not been criminally mismanaged then the situation would be very different. Sadam Hussein would be gone and a appropriately democratic (in Iraqi terms) government would be in place. The problem is that there are Muslims who do not want that to happen at any cost - the cost being in other Iraqi lives - not that the Coalition is acting wickedly.
In Christ
Peter
That was a wonderful post Theo.
But let's focus on each case. Let's take the Coptic Soldier living in California who has been asked to go to Iraq to fight against the resistance there. The soldier knows very well in his heart that the war is wrong, and it was only for Israel; a regime that he does not agree with, neither is Church.
What does he do?
What if he's faced in a position where he must kill an Iraqi? What then?
What should he do??
If the soldier knows in his heart that WAR is wrong, then the army wasn't for him. but if the army goes to war he is obliged to do his duties rightly in war. it's WAR, it's all death this will not be first, or last time.
are you saying that it is his job? That he is in fact absolved of any sin by virtue of his profession?
I heard the same. But I am still not sure we have actually thought about this.
Are we saying that if he cannot kill innocent people then he picked the wrong profession?
What about the medical profession? I know Coptic doctors who commit abortions simply because their rational is that if they don't do it, someone else will, and so their boss will be upset with them. Can we also tell these doctors that if you are not prepared to kill unborn babies, then you have chosen the wrong profession?
I think this question should be presented to a bishop. Its quite serious, and it is disturbing many khodam - im sorry to say that. In fact, i know many who are quite perplexed by this. (they are obviously in the medical profession and are in dilemmas).
What about the medical profession? I know Coptic doctors who commit abortions simply because their rational is that if they don't do it, someone else will, and so their boss will be upset with them. Can we also tell these doctors that if you are not prepared to kill unborn babies, then you have chosen the wrong profession?
QT, to my knowledge medical residents in US are able to opt out of performing if they are morally opposed to elective abortion and any physician can always refer his patient to someone else if the patient is not in medical emergency.
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What about the medical profession? I know Coptic doctors who commit abortions simply because their rational is that if they don't do it, someone else will, and so their boss will be upset with them. Can we also tell these doctors that if you are not prepared to kill unborn babies, then you have chosen the wrong profession?
QT, to my knowledge medical residents in US are able to opt out of performing if they are morally opposed to elective abortion and any physician can always refer his patient to someone else if the patient is not in medical emergency.
I honestly thought that opting out was international; so I admit, this medic's predicament did surprise me. Nevertheless, if one didn't opt out, is he or she guilty of murder? or is it just the mother? The doctor is only doing his/her job???
The statement "The doctor is doing his/her job" seems to me a fair comparison or parallel with Mina's view that if a soldier cannot handle killing innocent people (i.e. that he knows they are innocent and the reason for war is in fact immoral to begin with) - then apparently, he is in the wrong job.
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[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7564.msg99440#msg99440 date=1232320427]
What about the medical profession? I know Coptic doctors who commit abortions simply because their rational is that if they don't do it, someone else will, and so their boss will be upset with them. Can we also tell these doctors that if you are not prepared to kill unborn babies, then you have chosen the wrong profession?
QT, to my knowledge medical residents in US are able to opt out of performing if they are morally opposed to elective abortion and any physician can always refer his patient to someone else if the patient is not in medical emergency.
I honestly thought that opting out was international; so I admit, this medic's predicament did surprise me. Nevertheless, if one didn't opt out, is he or she guilty of murder? or is it just the mother? The doctor is only doing his/her job???
The statement "The doctor is doing his/her job" seems to me a fair comparison or parallel with Mina's view that if a soldier cannot handle killing innocent people (i.e. that he knows they are innocent and the reason for war is in fact immoral to begin with) - then apparently, he is in the wrong job.
well i have to say that medical doctors are different. normally doctors have much freedom of what to do. everything here in the US is by choice. even in serious operations....there are always consents that need to be done and signed to do anything.
now about my point before.....you have to consider that war in it essence is not accepted by our Church....but it is sometimes necessarily. this is normal. my aunt's husband went to 6 Oct war in egypt with many other Christians. they were in war. now you might say that they were fighting on the right side but that doesn't change that it was STILL war.
I think we are all in agreement with this. My uncle also died in the 6th October war. But generally such a war united all Egyptians (Copts and Muslims) as they all felt they were fighting a just cause.
However, what if Egypt decided to attack - let's say, greece - God forbid, to rid it of Christian Orthodoxy (God forbid, and I'm only speaking hypothetically.). Would it be right to fight in that war?
Surely, not all wars are justified. The war in Iraq is clearly for the interest of Israel to exist (to ease the paranoia it already has for existing with every country around it against it). This is now proven. You need to read the book by Mearsheimer and Walt (Harvard) on the Israeli Lobby that clearly said US Intelligence admitted that Iraq posed no threat to the USA. It was only for neoconservatives concerned by Israel's security that de-stablising Iraq was in Israel's favour. The countless number of academics and experts in US foreign policy have stated this as now fact. It had nothing to do with Al-Qaida. This is a very interesting case, as Mina, the Church believes that Christian-Zionism is wrong (theologically) - whereas there is only one Church promoting zionism - that is the evangelical right that has stated to its members - unless they are honour Israel's existance as a jewish state, they are not saved (as Christians). What does any of that have to with our faith? Do we honestly believe that?
In the tasbeha, in Tenoweh en-thok, we say "
Do not forget the covenant that You made with Our Fathers:
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,
Israel Your Saint.
Are we asking God here to remember that He promised them land, and we are praying for jews to reclaim their land, or are we asking God to remember his promise that the SPIRITUAL descendants of israel reclaim their land: i.e. that the heavenly jerusalem is opened for us, and we are successful in becoming members and living in this Heavenly Kingdom??
Please tell me.
So, now imagine a Copt going to war for America KNOWING very well that the reasons he is fighting is against not in accordance with his faith, and is in fact injust? If he is convicted in his heart that the reasons for war is wrong, should he go? If he feels, and is convinced that he is only fighting in a proxy army for Israel, should he go to war? This is no longer a hypothetical question? Ex US marines have come out and said this. I don't have the Youtube links; but it is the most heartbreaking video you could have seen of Soldiers realising that their country has sent them to war, not only for false reasons but for the personal agenda of another state. (maybe go to youtube and type "iraq, war, soldier, israel" - i'm sure you'll find lots!!)
I'm interested to know what u think.
Surely, not all wars are justified. The war in Iraq is clearly for the interest of Israel to exist (to ease the paranoia it already has for existing with every country around it against it). This is now proven. You need to read the book by Mearsheimer and Walt (Harvard) on the Israeli Lobby that clearly said US Intelligence admitted that Iraq posed no threat to the USA. It was only for neoconservatives concerned by Israel's security that de-stablising Iraq was in Israel's favour. The countless number of academics and experts in US foreign policy have stated this as now fact. It had nothing to do with Al-Qaida. This is a very interesting case, as Mina, the Church believes that Christian-Zionism is wrong (theologically) - whereas there is only one Church promoting zionism - that is the evangelical right that has stated to its members - unless they are honour Israel's existance as a jewish state, they are not saved (as Christians). What does any of that have to with our faith? Do we honestly believe that?
well you can't use that as an example...because you'll have to include EVERYONE else who is not a COC and their evils. well to me the promise refers to the salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ. i don't think i am wrong in this, but i am sure there is more to it. i am just considering the context of the prayer, in the book of Daniel, while the children in the fire, and praying and "waiting for the Consolation of Israel" as the famous verse of Simeon the elder. also don't forget that all of Daniel's prophecies refer to the "last days", which refers to the days of Jesus and the plan of salvation in biblical language. this will just get us back into the Iraq war post which GOT NO WHERE. i think i made it clear with this case in my first post. A soldier does his duties. Iraq war, Canada war, it's what he got himself into, being a citizenship of that specific country; speaking about a "draft" if any happen.
In general we know that Orthodox Christians have served in the Armed Forces, and many have become saints. In the early Church at one time it was not permitted for the faithful to be soldiers, but this position has been modified in different times and in different places. It depends on the army in question and the various conflicts in which it is involved.
I do disagree with you about the nature of the conflict in Iraq. Certainly none of the armed forces from the UK, and as far as I can see none of the political basis, is rooted in the security of Israel. Indeed while there is support for our armed forces in Iraq it would seem to me that there is growing concern in the UK about the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinian people. I have not seen anything which would lead me to think that people in the UK link the Iraq conflict with Israel in any direct sense.
You seem to be sugegsting that our armed forces are in Iraq causing death and destruction everywhere, but this does not seem to me to be true. The vast majority of deaths have been caused by Islamic militants. In 2008 there were 9000 civilian deaths of which about 350 were due to US military. That is 350 too many, but clearly the vast majority are not caused by the US military and those which are seem to be due to airstrikes, which seem to be a blunt weapon. Only a very small number indeed seem to be due to infantry action on the ground.
I would like to discuss the issue of Orthodox Christians serving in the armed forces, but it is difficult if you skew the thread by assuming that everyone agrees the conflict in Iraq is wrong and paint the military as using excessive and indiscriminate force. We can discuss the main issue without getting bogged down in the politics of the present.
In Christ
Peter
Your comment that the early Church did not permit the faithful to be soldiers intrigues me. Can you point me out to further reading?
GB
Peter - you are missing my point. I am saying that IF a soldier himself feels and is convinced (him PERSONALLY) that a particular war is wrong - and he still goes ahead and kills people who (in his heart - he knows are innocent) then is this wrong? So, basically, the country is for a war (i.e. the government) but in his heart, he knows it is wrong. If he does kill anyone, is it a sin?
I gave an example about the current war in Iraq. It is clear that it was for Israel's agenda. This is not a personal opinion. This is now factual. If a soldier discovers this, what then is his or her position in front of the Church, and the State?
Just for your information, the existance of American forces in Iraq is a clear response to an occupier, not to a liberator. Throwing a shoes at the man that "liberated" them is not a gesture of "thanks!". Is it?
Tens of Thousands of Iraqi's condemning america's war in Iraq and protesting it is not a sign that it did the country any good -is it?
When CIA intelligence agents who admit that the war was for Israel, come out and say publicly "the war was for Israel" and academics and experts say "The war was for Israel" - one cannot help feel that the war was "really for Israel"!!! Especially in sight of all the lies about WMDs. So, with respect to an officer in this position - how will the Church judge such a person if they DO go to war knowing very well in their hearts that they believe the war is wrong.
As I said Peter - please go ahead and see videos of soldiers who have come forth and said that they feel used. That they were sent to fight someone else's war.
I'm not mixing my political views in a question about morality- I am telling you that moral issues need to be discussed and addressed in political views. You cannot deny that.
Why would someone join the army without giving thought to the fact that they might be called to fight?
And who are the innocent people that a US infantry man is being asked to kill? Are they the Islamic terrorists who are blowing up Muslim and Christian women and children?
I don't want to argue politics with you but you are making statements of opinion as if they were fact.
Peter
I'm not mixing my political views in a question about morality- I am telling you that moral issues need to be discussed and addressed in political views. You cannot deny that.
let's think about this a little....i like to use this also looking at ANY government based decision, like WAR. the USA is a democracy. "WE THE PEOPLE" choose who leads them. they have to deal with their own fair choice. this must be the understanding of this politically AND logically
If anyone does something against their conscience and without faith then it is sin.
Why would someone join the army without giving thought to the fact that they might be called to fight?
Perhaps they trusted in the integrity of the government they represent. And then, they discover that the reasons for war are injust. Therefore, shouldnt the state absolve them of their military duties?
I guess you've answered the 2nd part of the question that if they do anything against their conscience then this is a sin.
Thanks. With all due respect, you are now claiming your opinion as fact.
In every occupation, there has been resistance. You are not seeing America in this war as the occupier, but rather as the liberator. I'm sure peter that you'll find yourself standing alone in a few years time with this opinion. But as you said, it is just your opinion, and you are now tending to turn this into fact. And as I said, so are you.
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I'm not mixing my political views in a question about morality- I am telling you that moral issues need to be discussed and addressed in political views. You cannot deny that.
let's think about this a little....i like to use this also looking at ANY government based decision, like WAR. the USA is a democracy. "WE THE PEOPLE" choose who leads them. they have to deal with their own fair choice. this must be the understanding of this politically AND logically
Yes Mina,
I'm sure every orthodox person loves his country of residence - USA, UK, Europe.. etc., and I'm sure we would be happy to defend our country of residence. However, if our governments lie to us whilst we are enlisted in the army or military, and we find ourselves fighting a war that is based on lies - are we obliged to continue?
And if there is a cost then the cost must be borne.
Peter
Yes Mina,
I'm sure every orthodox person loves his country of residence - USA, UK, Europe.. etc., and I'm sure we would be happy to defend our country of residence. However, if our governments lie to us whilst we are enlisted in the army or military, and we find ourselves fighting a war that is based on lies - are we obliged to continue?
ya habibi......all those "lies" you are talking about are opinion that change nothing in our case here. please don't bring all those links tany we mish 3aref eh about the Iraq war. the GOVERNMENT is that way....khalas. that's what we have to deal with. it's that simple.
How can a lie be an "opinion" ?? Either something is right or wrong.
ANyway, more to the point - and back to the original subject - does the Church allow for a person to work as a secret agent, if the job itself involves lying or killing?
I think you have answered your own question when you ask if someone should have a job which requires them to lie and kill.
There is a great deal of theological discussion around the issue of how a serving soldier might reconcile his service, even to the point of taking another life, with his faith. I guess that the main point comes down to whether taking another life in combat is considered the defense of many others, and whether this concept can be stretched to include even the murder and torture of others for the sake of the defense of many others.
Personally I could just about push the concept to the point of engaging in a defensive war, and in sending troops to defend others or to intervene in some sort of genocide. But it seems to me to exclude an aggressive war of conquest. I would also personally not be happy with the James Bond type of intelligence work that seems political rather than immediately defensive of lives.
What would I do if only I could intervene to prevent a nuclear bomb going off in the middle of a city and had to lie and then kill to do so? I'm not sure. It is a matter of prayer and conscience. And how could the Church give an absolute answer to such a case.
If it was just a matter of propping up a corrupt regime in Africa or Asia to help US business, then that is easier to condemn.
Peter
Mina,
How can a lie be an "opinion" ?? Either something is right or wrong. ANyway, more to the point - and back to the original subject - does the Church allow for a person to work as a secret agent, if the job itself involves lying or killing?
well according to what i know, i don't think much of us do that. the Church can't control Her children in that way.
in some cases, you do not have a choice to serve or not, it is forced on you. once you are in this situation you must carry your duty and serve, the lives that you take is not on your hands.
if you in the army and you get an order to assault someone for no reason, then that is your time to shine as Christian and refuse to carry on.
Life is full of choices and it is your responsibility to make the right ones.
Lawyer can defend either innocent or guilty people,
Doctors can do or refuse abortions.
Student can cheat or be honest.
You get the point.
So do not take a job of a provisional killer and complain that you are just doing your job.
well according to what i know, i don't think much of us do that. the Church can't control Her children in that way.
Sorry Mina, but the church is clear here, God gave us the commandments and it is clearly say (DO NOT KILL).
so to answer your question,,,,,,,,,, DO NOT TAKE THIS JOB.
so to answer your question,,,,,,,,,, DO NOT TAKE THIS JOB.
i didn't say anything against that. that what i basically propose. but if some people do, they would have to apply to what the job requires. not everyone does what the CHurch tells him or her.
Thus the Church has with difficulty judged between military action which is murder and military action which might be considered in defence of life.
Interestingly there are canons which prevent someone who has killed in military conflict from becoming a deacon, priest or bishop. This suggests to me that military conflict is seen as only sometimes the best of a bad set of choices, and that those who engage in it even for worthy ends must face the consequences of taking life. Murder, on the other hand - and military force can sometimes be murder - is always condemned as sin.
Peter
However, if I sign up for the military because I love my country and believe my country has good values, and then discover that the war they are sending me on is based on lies and immoral causes, this is when there becomes a problem: As a Christian, I feel that it would be wrong to continue. However, there are some that know very well that it is wrong and immoral yet still continue because of the justification that they are just doing a job for their country.
I don't want to go into politics, and I am now using this completely as an example: but the war in Iraq (FOR EXAMPLE) - has made America quite unpopular if not even hated by most of the western and middle eastern world. So, fighting for a war that you know is unjust but you do it because you love your country, still makes your country unloved in the court of public opinion.
Also Peter, several people in our Church got contacted by MI5 for job vacancies. One got hired. I got contacted also. I didnt join. It didnt interest me. However, the people I know that did join are quite happy there and don't have a problem. I think a lot of it had to do with our Middle Eastern background.
You are drafted into war (you have no choice)
but it's your country and as a citizen you have a duty toward it
now regardless of whether it's a just war or not whether your defending or attacking
in any way: you will kill people (let's say you're a pilot and you throw bombs and inevitably you'll be killing people)
even if they are soldiers (and not innocent civilians who have nothing to do with it)
are you then guilty of murder?
Ok my question is this
You are drafted into war (you have no choice)
but it's your country and as a citizen you have a duty toward it
now regardless of whether it's a just war or not whether your defending or attacking
in any way: you will kill people (let's say you're a pilot and you throw bombs and inevitably you'll be killing people)
even if they are soldiers (and not innocent civilians who have nothing to do with it)
are you then guilty of murder?
Well that was basically my original question. The answer from Mina was that No. You are not guilty because it is your job.