Hi everyone i need help in understanding the holy trinity like ive heard of the 3 in 1 and 1 in 3 but i still don't understand im not smart so thats why i don't get it lol.
it kinda makes sense but how about when jesus was saying like my father in heaven will forgive you or how like he said if you blasphemy against the Holy Spirit there is no forgiveness like how he says to me i was like "wwhhaattt????" lol
The church explains the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as the continual refusal of the work of the Holy Spirit in your life until you die. Basically it's when you die without repentance and thus without forgiveness.
The incarnation can be compared with:
you have a jar and you close it there is air in the jar, and there is air outside the jar
Jesus is God incarnate, but God was still everywhere His divinity was united with His humanity into one nature: the nature of the Incarnate Word but while the human body is limited, the divinity isn't, just like you couldn't put all the air in the jar but it's the same kind of air outside the jar
this is how I heard it being explained
also remember when Jesus was on earth, He was being an example in obedience and humility
look one thing i can tell you is that this thread might go upto 100 pages but the chance that u will actually get it by the end is 17% ... BUT THE GREAT THING IS THAT WE ARE NOT EXPECTED TO UNDERSTAND IT!!! our brains are not designed in a way that can understand that much.. remember afterall, GOD IS GOD!!! and um... my name might not help, but i never really got the mistery of the Holy Trinity... so yeh.. im just as bad as you...
[quote author=Trinity+ link=topic=7214.msg95731#msg95731 date=1224191631] look one thing i can tell you is that this thread might go upto 100 pages but the chance that u will actually get it by the end is 17% ... BUT THE GREAT THING IS THAT WE ARE NOT EXPECTED TO UNDERSTAND IT!!! our brains are not designed in a way that can understand that much.. remember afterall, GOD IS GOD!!! and um... my name might not help, but i never really got the mistery of the Holy Trinity... so yeh.. im just as bad as you...
Yes, that's very true.
However, if you'd like, I can get you, and anyone else a copy of "Comparative Theology" or the "Divinity of Christ" that explains all this easily at discount prices. Just let me know,
the holy Trinity is like a tree. the tree have 3 parts. the roots, the top of the tree that you see, and the juice that is transfered from the roots to the top of the tree to the leaves and the fruits to keep it going.
the root of the tree is God the Father which is hidden from everyone like the roots not shown. the the rest of the tree is the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Incarnated Word of God that resembles the Father. like the normal body of the tree resembles the roots. The juice that keep the roots and the tree connected is the Holy Spirit .
also a continuation to that is how the fruits and the leaves part of the tree and how they are grown by the help of the juice that is send from the root. it resembles us as parts of Jesus Christ and the juice, the Holy Spirit, that proceeds from the Father, nourishes us to live by, in, and with Him who is above.
Also as new branches of trees get pruned into trees to grow, we become part of the Body of Jesus Christ.
* This was explained by Hegumen Fr. Abraam Sleman of St. Mark's Jersey City.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7214.msg95746#msg95746 date=1224206124] Can a person basically say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different "forms" of one God?
ex. The father is the form of the one God not seen, who receives the prayers of everyone
ex. The son is the form of God who is seen and is partaken of during communion and was slain on the wood of the cross
ex. The holy spirit is the form of God who is unseen who works in every person and blesses all holy things
OK, look, to be really exact, here's the real deal:
The Father is the Source. From Him, proceeds the Son and the Holy Spirit.
This is a very important start to understanding the Holy Trinity. Using the term "Procession"; or "Proceeding from".
They are the ONE God. They have the ONE Will. This is the "Will" of the Father.
The Son is not like the term we humans know it. I have a son: therefore my son is younger than me, and there was a time when my son never existed. Not at all.
The term "Son" means "Proceeding from" in this case, and also "Beloved of".
The son is "Beloved" of the Father, and He proceeds from the Father. Proceeds in what sense? If I have a good idea, if my mind generates a good idea, the source of the idea is my mind. But the idea is NOT the mind. But the idea cannot be separated from the mind. I cannot separate my spoken word from me.
And we know that the Son was ALWAYS with the Father. This means that God the Father was a perpetual Father, to a Perpetual Son.
The Son is also known as "The Wisdom" of God. Which makes sense actually, as a wise mind is judged by what He says. So, Christ, being the "Word" of God has revealed to us "the Father".
The Holy Spirit, well - we know that God is Spirit; so that's not so hard to understand.
Does this make sense to anyone??
There is a good source for stuff like this that is BRILLIANTLY explained by H.E. Metropolitan Anba BISHOY. If you go to his website, you'll find articles on the Holy Trinity.
We can only use terms that we humans have available to our limited capacity of understanding. We use analogies that best describe the Holy Trinity; but in doing so, reduce the magnificence of the Holy Trinity to a human understanding, and God is above this. His Divinity and nature is above our understanding. So, be careful of the examples you use.
The best example though to explain how 3 is in 1 and 1 is in 3 is look at a glass of ice.
REALLY COLD ICE.
And put this glass in a room, at room temperature.
You'll see that at the the bottom of the glass, where the ice is touching the warm glass, it is melting and producing some water. At the top of the ice-cube, where it is really cold, you'll see that there is some humidity, or water vapor being produced.
The water and the vapour ALL came from the same ICE cube. The same fabric. The same essence: i.e. water.
The liquid is NOT the gas The gas is NOT the liquid The liquid is NOT the ice.
But 3 of them are water - the ONE water. Their substance didnt come from ANOTHER water. It was all from the same ice cube.
But each one of them: ice, gas, liquid, are equal in nature: they are the same substance as each other: water (H20).
Be careful again of analogies --> if someone asks you, just say "i don't know" - its best than to use examples that have flaws in them and then you'd find yourself cornered only by the limitation of your example. The example of the ice - cube does not explain the Holy Trinity. It explains how 3 elements can be in 1 element and 1 element exist in 3. Water is in all 3 elements; and all 3 elements are from that 1 ice cube.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7214.msg95746#msg95746 date=1224206124] Can a person basically say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different "forms" of one God?
ex. The father is the form of the one God not seen, who receives the prayers of everyone
ex. The son is the form of God who is seen and is partaken of during communion and was slain on the wood of the cross
ex. The holy spirit is the form of God who is unseen who works in every person and blesses all holy things
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7214.msg95727#msg95727 date=1224190682] well, you can look at it this way:
imagine a man who is a doctor, a lawyer and an architect, his name is X
X is the doctor, the lawyer and the architect
the doctor is X the lawyer is X the architect is X
In a similar way we have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
the Father is God the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God
One in three, three in one
hope that helps God bless
It is dangerous to refer to God in this manner, in my humble opinion, as this strongly reflects the heresy of Sabellianism, where God appears in 3 different modes but is the same person.
The Trinity is a Mystery. Any analogy that is given will always fall short and be flawed in comparison. In describing what has been revealed to us, it is important not to fall into the heresies that the Fathers of the Church have, along with the Holy Spirit, worked so hard to defend against.
Also, it must be noted that the Son does not proceed from the Father; the Son is the Only-Begotten of the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. It is important to maintain the correct terminology as there are many falsehoods that would arise from beginning with incorrect characterization. The relation of the Son being the Only-Begotten of the Father is Biblical, as is the Holy Spirit's procession.
the holy Trinity is like a tree. the tree have 3 parts. the roots, the top of the tree that you see, and the juice that is transfered from the roots to the top of the tree to the leaves and the fruits to keep it going.
the root of the tree is God the Father which is hidden from everyone like the roots not shown. the the rest of the tree is the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Incarnated Word of God that resembles the Father. like the normal body of the tree resembles the roots. The juice that keep the roots and the tree connected is the Holy Spirit .
also a continuation to that is how the fruits and the leaves part of the tree and how they are grown by the help of the juice that is send from the root. it resembles us as parts of Jesus Christ and the juice, the Holy Spirit, that proceeds from the Father, nourishes us to live by, in, and with Him who is above.
Also as new branches of trees get pruned into trees to grow, we become part of the Body of Jesus Christ.
* This was explained by Hegumen Fr. Abraam Sleman of St. Mark's Jersey City.
This explanation is pretty good. And what I like about it is that it is the same example our Lord used.
He said "I am the Vine". So, Christ IS the Vine. We are connected to the vine.. and when we are connected, what happens?? The Holy Spirit in the Vine works in us (the branches) and we bear fruit.
This example is the only one worth mentioning because of the spiritual element involved that the Holy Spirit works in us when we are attached to that tree; and using this as an example is better than anything else as it is biblical also.
In The Name of The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, One True God, Amen!!!
Dear Friends,
This is really a mighty thread by itself. May God help us to learn from eachother through His True Spirit.
childoforthodoxy has pointed a good error that God is not three forms of one person. I totally agree.
Let me share with you what I have read from books and prayers. Almost you have already done the most parts.
God is one but exists in Three Persons. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. The Father has His own Body, The Son has His own Body, The Holy Spirit has His own Body. but These Three Bodies have The same Essence, Authority, Majesty, Power and Honour. God is out of sapce and time. God is always One and Three. Because God is the Father, He is not older than the Son. God the Son was always with the Father unlike our human childhood. The Father is always the Father unlike our human fatherhood. There was No time in eternity that the Father was without the Son. Because God is the Father, He does not order the Son. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit share one Equal Authority and Will. But clearly These Three Persons are not one person only. Because The Son in His different Body has taken a human flesh to be called Jesus.
I have read many analogies which most are mentioned by others but I will share only two with you.
1. Fire as God. The Flame is the Father, The Light is the Son, The Heat is the Holy Spirit. The light is the one who has the real contact with our lense. The True Light, Jesus is the one out of the Holy Trinity who has taken our flesh and contacted us in a sense with Love. Can any one say the Flame was there before the Light? Both the Falme and the Light existed together always. The same way the Son was with the Father always. Just as the Flame is the source of both the Light and the Heat, the Father is the source. But There exists One Fire. One God in Three Persons.
2. An equilateral Triangle as God. A Triangle with all The Three Sides the same. The Three sides each represent God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. As you can Never have a Triangle with a missing Side, God was always Three. Each side have the same length showing Equality among The Three Persons. The Three equal sides make on equilateral Trinagle. Thus The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit together are One True God.
May God draw the image of His Holy Trinity in our hearts more than words can describe. Words are not powerful to describe Love. God is Love.
[quote author=childoforthodoxy link=topic=7214.msg95754#msg95754 date=1224231319] [quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7214.msg95746#msg95746 date=1224206124] Can a person basically say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different "forms" of one God?
ex. The father is the form of the one God not seen, who receives the prayers of everyone
ex. The son is the form of God who is seen and is partaken of during communion and was slain on the wood of the cross
ex. The holy spirit is the form of God who is unseen who works in every person and blesses all holy things
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7214.msg95727#msg95727 date=1224190682] well, you can look at it this way:
imagine a man who is a doctor, a lawyer and an architect, his name is X
X is the doctor, the lawyer and the architect
the doctor is X the lawyer is X the architect is X
In a similar way we have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
the Father is God the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God
One in three, three in one
hope that helps God bless
It is dangerous to refer to God in this manner, in my humble opinion, as this strongly reflects the heresy of Sabellianism, where God appears in 3 different modes but is the same person.
The Trinity is a Mystery. Any analogy that is given will always fall short and be flawed in comparison. In describing what has been revealed to us, it is important not to fall into the heresies that the Fathers of the Church have, along with the Holy Spirit, worked so hard to defend against.
Pray for my weakness, childoforthodoxy
Sorry if this was in any way confusing, I have it from a book on theology by a former coptic orthodox abbot of a monastery...
What I fail to understand is: why don't you use the analogy of the vine. It's in the Bible.
"I am the Vine" --> Christ is the actual physical tree "My father is the Vine Dresser" --> The Father determines the direction/shape of the Vine. "Every branch in me shall bear fruit" --> The Holy Spirit runs in the veins of this vine working in every branch that is attached to it.
So the Trinity would be:
The Father is the root - as He determines the way the Vine will look, The Son is the Vine --> what we see, and what we are attached to. I.e. we are the BODY OF CHRIST. The Holy Spirit is the Nourishment that fills the vine. it is the substance of the Vine --> It works in us to sanctify us and make us produce fruit.
This is an analogy that Christ Himself used. Why do we bother creating our own examples for?
[from the end of On Heresies] [Saint John of Damascus]
We believe in Father and Son and Holy Ghost; one Godhead in three hypostases; one will, one operation, alike in three persons; wisdom incorporeal, uncreated, immortal, incomprehensible, without beginning, unmoved, unaffected, without quantity, without quality, ineffable, immutable, unchangeable, uncontained, equal in glory, equal in power, equal in majesty, equal in might, equal in nature, exceedingly substantial, exceedingly good, thrice radiant, thrice bright, thrice brilliant.
Light is the Father, Light the Son, Light the Holy Ghost; Wisdom the Father, Wisdom the Son, Wisdom the Holy Ghost; one God and not three Gods; one Lord the Holy Trinity discovered in three hypostases.
Father is the Father, and unbegotten; Son is the Son, begotten and not unbegotten, for He is from the Father; Holy Ghost, not begotten but proceeding, for He is from the Father.
There is nothing created, nothing of the first and second order, nothing lord and servant; but there is unity and trinity - there was, there is, and there shall be forever - which is perceived and adored by faith - by faith, not by inquiry, nor by searching out, nor by visible manifestation; for the more He is sought out, the more He is unknown, and the more He is investigated, the more He is hidden.
And so, let the faithful adore God with a mind that is not overcurious. And believe that He is God in three hypostases, although the manner in which He is so is beyond manner, for God is incomprehensible. Do not ask how the Trinity is Trinity, for the Trinity is inscrutable.
But, if you are curious about God, first tell me of yourself and the things that pertain to you. How does your soul have existence? How is your mind set in motion? How do you produce your mental concepts? How is it that you are both mortal and immortal? But, if you are ignorant of these things which are within you, then why do you not shudder at the thought of investigating the sublime things of heaven?
Think of the Father as a spring of life begetting the Son like a river and the Holy Ghost like a sea, for the spring and the river and sea are all one nature.
Think of the Father as a root, and of the Son as a branch, and the Spirit as a fruit, for the substance in these three is one.
The Father is a sun with the Son as rays and the Holy Ghost as heat.
The Holy Trinity transcends by far every similitude and figure. So, when you hear of an offspring of the Father, do not think of a corporeal offspring. And when you hear that there is a Word, do not suppose Him to be a corporeal word. And when you hear of the Spirit of God, do not think of wind and breath. Rather, hold you persuasion with a simple faith alone. For the concept of the Creator is arrived at by analogy from His creatures.
Be persuaded, moreover, that the incarnate dispensation of the Son of God was begotten ineffably without seed of the blessed Virgin, believing Him to be without confusion and without change both God and man, who for your sake worked all the dispensation. And to Him by good works give worship and adoration, and venerate and revere the most holy Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary as true Mother of God, and all the saints as His attendants.
Doing thus, you will be a right worshiper of the holy and undivided Trinity, Father and Son and Holy Ghost, of the one Godhead, to whom be glory and honor and adoration forever and ever. Amen
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7214.msg95755#msg95755 date=1224232595] This explanation is pretty good. And what I like about it is that it is the same example our Lord used.
He said "I am the Vine". So, Christ IS the Vine. We are connected to the vine.. and when we are connected, what happens?? The Holy Spirit in the Vine works in us (the branches) and we bear fruit.
This example is the only one worth mentioning because of the spiritual element involved that the Holy Spirit works in us when we are attached to that tree; and using this as an example is better than anything else as it is biblical also.
This is a great explanation. It is, in my opinion, shown completely correct doctrine of Christ, and my advice to you is that in a dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox, thus presented his religion. Then all realize that you are truly Orthodox.
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7214.msg95879#msg95879 date=1224433708] lol im stil confused.. ive had problems wit this for as long as i can remember..
+mahraeel+
Mahraeel,
We believe in One God. ONE. Not three gods. OK?
When we are baptised, the priest baptises us in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He doesn't baptise us in the nameS of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Bible says "Israel, your God is One".
One God.
The Trinity IS this One God.
The 3 persons of the Trinity are of the same essence as each other. They are of the same substance as one another. Not higher or lower or superior or inferior than each other in glory, nor divinity. They are equal. A perfectly equal Tri-une God.
Tri = 3 Une = 1
The relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is explained as follows:
The Father is the source, from Him, proceeds the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a perpetual procession. There was never a time when the Son didn't exist.
What is so hard to understand about that?
I was born with a mind, and my mind gave birth to an idea. That's my idea, my baby, my Son. The unity between the mind and the idea is united. I cannot separate them. I cannot separate the mind from the idea. The mind is NOT the idea, but both of them are part of the same being.
Is this hard to understand?
This is not an analogy. The Bible tells us that Christ is the Word of God. The Word was with God and the Word WAS God. In the fullness of time, the Word took flesh.
What is difficult about this? The Word became man in the fullness of time; although in the fullness of time the Word took flesh; the Word was always ever-existent; with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
You see, I agree that the Trinity is not the easiest idea to understand, but we are not required to understand it at a very molecular level. Not at all... but we should understand that Christ is the Word of God that took flesh, became man, and suffered for us. That's the crux of it. Its the most essential part. The Divinity, united with His Humanity being crucified provided for us a path into Paradise, conquering death and its bonds.
The mode of unity of the Trinity - there is NO word in the English language that can explain this, so there's no point in even going on at that level. The Unity between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not like the unity of a political party, its beyond. Its something indescribable.
The Son is the "beloved" of the Father. The Father gave us the most precious part of Him to save us. Does that make sense at least?
oohhhh i get how the son and father like the son jesus is God in human form to save us and therefore called The logos but the holy spirit is still OH AND the jesus the father and the spirit are one then why would the holy spirit would come down when he was baptized by St. John if he is the holy spirit and the Father why would there be a need for it to come down
,,All the saints greet you. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." (2. Corinthians 13.13)
[quote author=Copticdeacon link=topic=7214.msg95902#msg95902 date=1224456668] oohhhh i get how the son and father like the son jesus is God in human form to save us and therefore called The logos but the holy spirit is still OH AND the jesus the father and the spirit are one then why would the holy spirit would come down when he was baptized by St. John if he is the holy spirit and the Father why would there be a need for it to come down
The baptism of Jesus by John is not the same as when we are baptised. Christ needed no baptism like us. He was baptised in order to sanctify the water. When we are baptised it is the sanctified water that cleanses us.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The reason why He proceeds from the Father and not the Son is paramount in theology. The catholics believe the procession is from the Father and the Son. This changes the form of an equilateral Triune God. If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son, there is no longer an equilateral relationship between all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity. The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father AND the Son is known as the "Filoque" in Latin. It is considered to be a heresy, and the main reason why the Orthodox Churches split from the Roman Catholic.
I strongly recommend that people go to H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy's website to read more about this. H.E. has a very clear and concise way of explaining all this.
Now, to be perfectly honest with you, although it was clear to our theologians that the filoque is heretical, I do believe that it was wrong for the RC to introduce such a heresy knowing very well that the Orthodox would split from them. It was as if they were asking for trouble. And they got it.
But to be divided over this issue is sad; because the average Joe doesn't need really to know theology at that level to be saved. All he must know is that Christ became man to die for him.
If anyone believes in the Holy Trinity, they cannot believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son; otherwise it no longer becomes a Trinity. We believe, as Orthodox Christians, that the Father is the "Source", and from Him, proceeds the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a perpetual procession.
The Holy Spirit IS God. God IS Spirit. It is the Life-Giving Holy Spirit that gave life to the World. It is this Holy Spirit that was breathed into Adam to give him life.
So why was there a need for the Holy Spirit to come down on us once we were saved by Christ's blood being shed for us on the cross???
The Christian faith isn't a faith about "master" and "slave". Its more than that. God doesn't want us as slaves. He wants to abide in us. He wants to abide in us in every single way. He wants to be with us. He abides with us and is with us by His Holy Spirit.
Before Christ died on the cross, there was enmity between Heaven and Earth. Christ came and reconciled us back with Him. Through Christ, we wear a new garment of salvation and righteousness and we do this in baptism. We cannot expect the Holy Spirit to dwell in us if we are not baptised (i.e. still living in the old corrupt nature). So, we need to be baptised beforehand in order to be considered temples of the Holy Spirit.
How could we have baptised if Christ did not come 1st to allow us to be baptised? What would we be baptised into? But Saint Paul tells us we are baptised into His Death. We die with Christ, and Resurrect with Him. This is baptism. Of course this is a sacrament, and yet its so easy for us to be baptised - there is no suffering during the baptism; but it was Christ who suffered to allow us to wear this garment of salvation.
So, I recapitulate: Our nature, before baptism, was corrupt. After baptism we die with Christ, and out from the baptismal font comes a new creation dressed in righteousness, not corruption. This is what the Holy Spirit abides in.
Comments
imagine a man who is a doctor, a lawyer and an architect, his name is X
X is the doctor, the lawyer and the architect
the doctor is X
the lawyer is X
the architect is X
In a similar way we have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
the Father is God
the Son is God
and the Holy Spirit is God
One in three, three in one
hope that helps
God bless
The incarnation can be compared with:
you have a jar and you close it
there is air in the jar, and there is air outside the jar
Jesus is God incarnate, but God was still everywhere
His divinity was united with His humanity into one nature: the nature of the Incarnate Word
but while the human body is limited, the divinity isn't, just like you couldn't put all the air in the jar
but it's the same kind of air outside the jar
this is how I heard it being explained
also remember when Jesus was on earth, He was being an example in obedience and humility
and um... my name might not help, but i never really got the mistery of the Holy Trinity... so yeh.. im just as bad as you...
look one thing i can tell you is that this thread might go upto 100 pages but the chance that u will actually get it by the end is 17% ... BUT THE GREAT THING IS THAT WE ARE NOT EXPECTED TO UNDERSTAND IT!!! our brains are not designed in a way that can understand that much.. remember afterall, GOD IS GOD!!!
and um... my name might not help, but i never really got the mistery of the Holy Trinity... so yeh.. im just as bad as you...
Yes, that's very true.
However, if you'd like, I can get you, and anyone else a copy of "Comparative Theology" or the "Divinity of Christ" that explains all this easily at discount prices. Just let me know,
the holy Trinity is like a tree. the tree have 3 parts. the roots, the top of the tree that you see, and the juice that is transfered from the roots to the top of the tree to the leaves and the fruits to keep it going.
the root of the tree is God the Father which is hidden from everyone like the roots not shown.
the the rest of the tree is the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Incarnated Word of God that resembles the Father. like the normal body of the tree resembles the roots.
The juice that keep the roots and the tree connected is the Holy Spirit .
also a continuation to that is how the fruits and the leaves part of the tree and how they are grown by the help of the juice that is send from the root. it resembles us as parts of Jesus Christ and the juice, the Holy Spirit, that proceeds from the Father, nourishes us to live by, in, and with Him who is above.
Also as new branches of trees get pruned into trees to grow, we become part of the Body of Jesus Christ.
* This was explained by Hegumen Fr. Abraam Sleman of St. Mark's Jersey City.
ex. The father is the form of the one God not seen, who receives the prayers of everyone
ex. The son is the form of God who is seen and is partaken of during communion and was slain on the wood of the cross
ex. The holy spirit is the form of God who is unseen who works in every person and blesses all holy things
Can a person basically say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different "forms" of one God?
ex. The father is the form of the one God not seen, who receives the prayers of everyone
ex. The son is the form of God who is seen and is partaken of during communion and was slain on the wood of the cross
ex. The holy spirit is the form of God who is unseen who works in every person and blesses all holy things
OK, look, to be really exact, here's the real deal:
The Father is the Source. From Him, proceeds the Son and the Holy Spirit.
This is a very important start to understanding the Holy Trinity. Using the term "Procession"; or "Proceeding from".
They are the ONE God. They have the ONE Will. This is the "Will" of the Father.
The Son is not like the term we humans know it. I have a son: therefore my son is younger than me, and there was a time when my son never existed. Not at all.
The term "Son" means "Proceeding from" in this case, and also "Beloved of".
The son is "Beloved" of the Father, and He proceeds from the Father. Proceeds in what sense? If I have a good idea, if my mind generates a good idea, the source of the idea is my mind. But the idea is NOT the mind. But the idea cannot be separated from the mind. I cannot separate my spoken word from me.
And we know that the Son was ALWAYS with the Father. This means that God the Father was a perpetual Father, to a Perpetual Son.
The Son is also known as "The Wisdom" of God. Which makes sense actually, as a wise mind is judged by what He says. So, Christ, being the "Word" of God has revealed to us "the Father".
The Holy Spirit, well - we know that God is Spirit; so that's not so hard to understand.
Does this make sense to anyone??
There is a good source for stuff like this that is BRILLIANTLY explained by H.E. Metropolitan Anba BISHOY.
If you go to his website, you'll find articles on the Holy Trinity.
We can only use terms that we humans have available to our limited capacity of understanding. We use analogies that best describe the Holy Trinity; but in doing so, reduce the magnificence of the Holy Trinity to a human understanding, and God is above this. His Divinity and nature is above our understanding. So, be careful of the examples you use.
The best example though to explain how 3 is in 1 and 1 is in 3 is look at a glass of ice.
REALLY COLD ICE.
And put this glass in a room, at room temperature.
You'll see that at the the bottom of the glass, where the ice is touching the warm glass, it is melting and producing some water. At the top of the ice-cube, where it is really cold, you'll see that there is some humidity, or water vapor being produced.
The water and the vapour ALL came from the same ICE cube. The same fabric. The same essence: i.e. water.
The liquid is NOT the gas
The gas is NOT the liquid
The liquid is NOT the ice.
But 3 of them are water - the ONE water. Their substance didnt come from ANOTHER water. It was all from the same ice cube.
But each one of them: ice, gas, liquid, are equal in nature: they are the same substance as each other: water (H20).
Be careful again of analogies --> if someone asks you, just say "i don't know" - its best than to use examples that have flaws in them and then you'd find yourself cornered only by the limitation of your example. The example of the ice - cube does not explain the Holy Trinity. It explains how 3 elements can be in 1 element and 1 element exist in 3. Water is in all 3 elements; and all 3 elements are from that 1 ice cube.
Can a person basically say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different "forms" of one God?
ex. The father is the form of the one God not seen, who receives the prayers of everyone
ex. The son is the form of God who is seen and is partaken of during communion and was slain on the wood of the cross
ex. The holy spirit is the form of God who is unseen who works in every person and blesses all holy things
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7214.msg95727#msg95727 date=1224190682]
well, you can look at it this way:
imagine a man who is a doctor, a lawyer and an architect, his name is X
X is the doctor, the lawyer and the architect
the doctor is X
the lawyer is X
the architect is X
In a similar way we have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
the Father is God
the Son is God
and the Holy Spirit is God
One in three, three in one
hope that helps
God bless
It is dangerous to refer to God in this manner, in my humble opinion, as this strongly reflects the heresy of Sabellianism, where God appears in 3 different modes but is the same person.
The Trinity is a Mystery. Any analogy that is given will always fall short and be flawed in comparison. In describing what has been revealed to us, it is important not to fall into the heresies that the Fathers of the Church have, along with the Holy Spirit, worked so hard to defend against.
Also, it must be noted that the Son does not proceed from the Father; the Son is the Only-Begotten of the Father. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. It is important to maintain the correct terminology as there are many falsehoods that would arise from beginning with incorrect characterization. The relation of the Son being the Only-Begotten of the Father is Biblical, as is the Holy Spirit's procession.
Pray for my weakness,
childoforthodoxy
from here: http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=4696.0
the holy Trinity is like a tree. the tree have 3 parts. the roots, the top of the tree that you see, and the juice that is transfered from the roots to the top of the tree to the leaves and the fruits to keep it going.
the root of the tree is God the Father which is hidden from everyone like the roots not shown.
the the rest of the tree is the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Incarnated Word of God that resembles the Father. like the normal body of the tree resembles the roots.
The juice that keep the roots and the tree connected is the Holy Spirit .
also a continuation to that is how the fruits and the leaves part of the tree and how they are grown by the help of the juice that is send from the root. it resembles us as parts of Jesus Christ and the juice, the Holy Spirit, that proceeds from the Father, nourishes us to live by, in, and with Him who is above.
Also as new branches of trees get pruned into trees to grow, we become part of the Body of Jesus Christ.
* This was explained by Hegumen Fr. Abraam Sleman of St. Mark's Jersey City.
This explanation is pretty good. And what I like about it is that it is the same example our Lord used.
He said "I am the Vine". So, Christ IS the Vine. We are connected to the vine.. and when we are connected, what happens?? The Holy Spirit in the Vine works in us (the branches) and we bear fruit.
This example is the only one worth mentioning because of the spiritual element involved that the Holy Spirit works in us when we are attached to that tree; and using this as an example is better than anything else as it is biblical also.
Dear Friends,
This is really a mighty thread by itself. May God help us to learn from eachother through His True Spirit.
childoforthodoxy has pointed a good error that God is not three forms of one person. I totally agree.
Let me share with you what I have read from books and prayers. Almost you have already done the most parts.
God is one but exists in Three Persons.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
The Father has His own Body, The Son has His own Body, The Holy Spirit has His own Body.
but These Three Bodies have The same Essence, Authority, Majesty, Power and Honour.
God is out of sapce and time. God is always One and Three.
Because God is the Father, He is not older than the Son.
God the Son was always with the Father unlike our human childhood.
The Father is always the Father unlike our human fatherhood.
There was No time in eternity that the Father was without the Son.
Because God is the Father, He does not order the Son.
The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit share one Equal Authority and Will.
But clearly These Three Persons are not one person only.
Because The Son in His different Body has taken a human flesh to be called Jesus.
I have read many analogies which most are mentioned by others but I will share only two with you.
1. Fire as God. The Flame is the Father, The Light is the Son, The Heat is the Holy Spirit.
The light is the one who has the real contact with our lense. The True Light, Jesus is the one out of the Holy Trinity who has taken our flesh and contacted us in a sense with Love.
Can any one say the Flame was there before the Light? Both the Falme and the Light existed together always. The same way the Son was with the Father always.
Just as the Flame is the source of both the Light and the Heat, the Father is the source.
But There exists One Fire. One God in Three Persons.
2. An equilateral Triangle as God. A Triangle with all The Three Sides the same.
The Three sides each represent God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
As you can Never have a Triangle with a missing Side, God was always Three.
Each side have the same length showing Equality among The Three Persons.
The Three equal sides make on equilateral Trinagle.
Thus The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit together are One True God.
May God draw the image of His Holy Trinity in our hearts more than words can describe.
Words are not powerful to describe Love. God is Love.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7214.msg95746#msg95746 date=1224206124]
Can a person basically say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all different "forms" of one God?
ex. The father is the form of the one God not seen, who receives the prayers of everyone
ex. The son is the form of God who is seen and is partaken of during communion and was slain on the wood of the cross
ex. The holy spirit is the form of God who is unseen who works in every person and blesses all holy things
[quote author=godislove260 link=topic=7214.msg95727#msg95727 date=1224190682]
well, you can look at it this way:
imagine a man who is a doctor, a lawyer and an architect, his name is X
X is the doctor, the lawyer and the architect
the doctor is X
the lawyer is X
the architect is X
In a similar way we have God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit
the Father is God
the Son is God
and the Holy Spirit is God
One in three, three in one
hope that helps
God bless
It is dangerous to refer to God in this manner, in my humble opinion, as this strongly reflects the heresy of Sabellianism, where God appears in 3 different modes but is the same person.
The Trinity is a Mystery. Any analogy that is given will always fall short and be flawed in comparison. In describing what has been revealed to us, it is important not to fall into the heresies that the Fathers of the Church have, along with the Holy Spirit, worked so hard to defend against.
Pray for my weakness,
childoforthodoxy
Sorry if this was in any way confusing, I have it from a book on theology by a former coptic orthodox abbot of a monastery...
"I am the Vine" --> Christ is the actual physical tree
"My father is the Vine Dresser" --> The Father determines the direction/shape of the Vine.
"Every branch in me shall bear fruit" --> The Holy Spirit runs in the veins of this vine working in every branch that is attached to it.
So the Trinity would be:
The Father is the root - as He determines the way the Vine will look,
The Son is the Vine --> what we see, and what we are attached to. I.e. we are the BODY OF CHRIST.
The Holy Spirit is the Nourishment that fills the vine. it is the substance of the Vine --> It works in us to sanctify us and make us produce fruit.
This is an analogy that Christ Himself used. Why do we bother creating our own examples for?
[from the end of On Heresies] [Saint John of Damascus]
We believe in Father and Son and Holy Ghost;
one Godhead in three hypostases;
one will, one operation, alike in three persons;
wisdom incorporeal, uncreated, immortal, incomprehensible,
without beginning, unmoved, unaffected, without quantity,
without quality, ineffable, immutable, unchangeable, uncontained,
equal in glory, equal in power, equal in majesty, equal in might, equal in nature,
exceedingly substantial, exceedingly good,
thrice radiant, thrice bright, thrice brilliant.
Light is the Father, Light the Son, Light the Holy Ghost;
Wisdom the Father, Wisdom the Son, Wisdom the Holy Ghost;
one God and not three Gods;
one Lord the Holy Trinity discovered in three hypostases.
Father is the Father, and unbegotten;
Son is the Son, begotten and not unbegotten, for He is from the Father;
Holy Ghost, not begotten but proceeding, for He is from the Father.
There is nothing created, nothing of the first and second order, nothing lord and servant;
but there is unity and trinity
- there was, there is, and there shall be forever -
which is perceived and adored by faith -
by faith, not by inquiry, nor by searching out, nor by visible manifestation;
for the more He is sought out, the more He is unknown, and the more He is investigated, the more He is hidden.
And so, let the faithful adore God with a mind that is not overcurious. And believe that He is God in three hypostases, although the manner in which He is so is beyond manner, for God is incomprehensible. Do not ask how the Trinity is Trinity, for the Trinity is inscrutable.
But, if you are curious about God, first tell me of yourself and the things that pertain to you. How does your soul have existence? How is your mind set in motion? How do you produce your mental concepts? How is it that you are both mortal and immortal? But, if you are ignorant of these things which are within you, then why do you not shudder at the thought of investigating the sublime things of heaven?
Think of the Father as a spring of life begetting the Son like a river and the Holy Ghost like a sea, for the spring and the river and sea are all one nature.
Think of the Father as a root, and of the Son as a branch, and the Spirit as a fruit, for the substance in these three is one.
The Father is a sun with the Son as rays and the Holy Ghost as heat.
The Holy Trinity transcends by far every similitude and figure. So, when you hear of an offspring of the Father, do not think of a corporeal offspring. And when you hear that there is a Word, do not suppose Him to be a corporeal word. And when you hear of the Spirit of God, do not think of wind and breath. Rather, hold you persuasion with a simple faith alone. For the concept of the Creator is arrived at by analogy from His creatures.
Be persuaded, moreover, that the incarnate dispensation of the Son of God was begotten ineffably without seed of the blessed Virgin, believing Him to be without confusion and without change both God and man, who for your sake worked all the dispensation. And to Him by good works give worship and adoration, and venerate and revere the most holy Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary as true Mother of God, and all the saints as His attendants.
Doing thus, you will be a right worshiper of the holy and undivided Trinity, Father and Son and Holy Ghost, of the one Godhead, to whom be glory and honor and adoration forever and ever. Amen
This explanation is pretty good. And what I like about it is that it is the same example our Lord used.
He said "I am the Vine". So, Christ IS the Vine. We are connected to the vine.. and when we are connected, what happens?? The Holy Spirit in the Vine works in us (the branches) and we bear fruit.
This example is the only one worth mentioning because of the spiritual element involved that the Holy Spirit works in us when we are attached to that tree; and using this as an example is better than anything else as it is biblical also.
This is a great explanation.
It is, in my opinion,
shown completely correct doctrine of Christ,
and my advice to you is that in a dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox,
thus presented his religion.
Then all realize that you are truly Orthodox.
+mahraeel+
lol im stil confused.. ive had problems wit this for as long as i can remember..
+mahraeel+
Mahraeel,
We believe in One God. ONE. Not three gods. OK?
When we are baptised, the priest baptises us in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He doesn't baptise us in the nameS of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Bible says "Israel, your God is One".
One God.
The Trinity IS this One God.
The 3 persons of the Trinity are of the same essence as each other. They are of the same substance as one another. Not higher or lower or superior or inferior than each other in glory, nor divinity. They are equal. A perfectly equal Tri-une God.
Tri = 3
Une = 1
The relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is explained as follows:
The Father is the source, from Him, proceeds the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a perpetual procession. There was never a time when the Son didn't exist.
What is so hard to understand about that?
I was born with a mind, and my mind gave birth to an idea. That's my idea, my baby, my Son. The unity between the mind and the idea is united. I cannot separate them. I cannot separate the mind from the idea. The mind is NOT the idea, but both of them are part of the same being.
Is this hard to understand?
This is not an analogy. The Bible tells us that Christ is the Word of God. The Word was with God and the Word WAS God. In the fullness of time, the Word took flesh.
What is difficult about this? The Word became man in the fullness of time; although in the fullness of time the Word took flesh; the Word was always ever-existent; with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
You see, I agree that the Trinity is not the easiest idea to understand, but we are not required to understand it at a very molecular level. Not at all... but we should understand that Christ is the Word of God that took flesh, became man, and suffered for us. That's the crux of it. Its the most essential part. The Divinity, united with His Humanity being crucified provided for us a path into Paradise, conquering death and its bonds.
The mode of unity of the Trinity - there is NO word in the English language that can explain this, so there's no point in even going on at that level. The Unity between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not like the unity of a political party, its beyond. Its something indescribable.
The Son is the "beloved" of the Father. The Father gave us the most precious part of Him to save us. Does that make sense at least?
the blashemy of teh holy spirit
no one knows but only my father in heaven
and while jesus came to earth, was there a God sitting on the throne in heaven
nd much more but these r all i can remember for now....thxxxxx
+mahraeel+
QT_PA_2T , completely true explanation!
whether you spiritual father, monk or presviter ...? :)
He connects the community, ie. baptized people, with Christ.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit,
be with you all." (2. Corinthians 13.13)
"God created the Waters".
OK. So God created the Waters. This is very true. God did create the waters. He created the Waters through the Son with the Life Giving Holy Spirit.
oohhhh i get how the son and father like the son jesus is God in human form to save us and therefore called The logos but the holy spirit is still OH AND the jesus the father and the spirit are one then why would the holy spirit would come down when he was baptized by St. John if he is the holy spirit and the Father why would there be a need for it to come down
The baptism of Jesus by John is not the same as when we are baptised. Christ needed no baptism like us. He was baptised in order to sanctify the water. When we are baptised it is the sanctified water that cleanses us.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The reason why He proceeds from the Father and not the Son is paramount in theology. The catholics believe the procession is from the Father and the Son. This changes the form of an equilateral Triune God. If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son, there is no longer an equilateral relationship between all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity. The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father AND the Son is known as the "Filoque" in Latin. It is considered to be a heresy, and the main reason why the Orthodox Churches split from the Roman Catholic.
I strongly recommend that people go to H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy's website to read more about this. H.E. has a very clear and concise way of explaining all this.
Now, to be perfectly honest with you, although it was clear to our theologians that the filoque is heretical, I do believe that it was wrong for the RC to introduce such a heresy knowing very well that the Orthodox would split from them. It was as if they were asking for trouble. And they got it.
But to be divided over this issue is sad; because the average Joe doesn't need really to know theology at that level to be saved. All he must know is that Christ became man to die for him.
If anyone believes in the Holy Trinity, they cannot believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son; otherwise it no longer becomes a Trinity. We believe, as Orthodox Christians, that the Father is the "Source", and from Him, proceeds the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is a perpetual procession.
The Holy Spirit IS God. God IS Spirit. It is the Life-Giving Holy Spirit that gave life to the World. It is this Holy Spirit that was breathed into Adam to give him life.
So why was there a need for the Holy Spirit to come down on us once we were saved by Christ's blood being shed for us on the cross???
The Christian faith isn't a faith about "master" and "slave". Its more than that. God doesn't want us as slaves. He wants to abide in us. He wants to abide in us in every single way. He wants to be with us. He abides with us and is with us by His Holy Spirit.
Before Christ died on the cross, there was enmity between Heaven and Earth. Christ came and reconciled us back with Him. Through Christ, we wear a new garment of salvation and righteousness and we do this in baptism. We cannot expect the Holy Spirit to dwell in us if we are not baptised (i.e. still living in the old corrupt nature). So, we need to be baptised beforehand in order to be considered temples of the Holy Spirit.
How could we have baptised if Christ did not come 1st to allow us to be baptised? What would we be baptised into? But Saint Paul tells us we are baptised into His Death. We die with Christ, and Resurrect with Him. This is baptism. Of course this is a sacrament, and yet its so easy for us to be baptised - there is no suffering during the baptism; but it was Christ who suffered to allow us to wear this garment of salvation.
So, I recapitulate: Our nature, before baptism, was corrupt. After baptism we die with Christ, and out from the baptismal font comes a new creation dressed in righteousness, not corruption. This is what the Holy Spirit abides in.