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Difference between original sin and fallen nature...

godislove260godislove260
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Is it correct to say?? : We didn't inherit the original sin (since we don't go around eating apples from forbidden trees LOL) yet we inherited the fallen nature of Adam and Eve, just as a child is HIV positive when he's born out of a mother who has aids..

I heard a priest saying once that when Adam and Eve sinned, we were all in them, we are the product of both of them, so when they sinned all humans were represented in them..(something like when you plant a seed and then a tree comes out of it, basically the entire tree was in the seed somehow even when it was just a little seed)

I just can't understand how that is fair (I'm just asking for an explanation since I'm too ignorant to figure the justice out in all of this) If we  (our generation)  were born without the fallen nature, then we would have had a chance to do what Adam and Eve didn't do, which is to obey God's commandments and not listen to the devil..
Yet when we are born now, we don't have a choice...
Origen has said that the story of Adam and Eve is mainly metaphorical, it's meant to show how humans in general always choose to go against God. But I'm not sure whether our COC agrees with this view. 

I just can't understand how it is fair that we are prone to sin now because of our fallen nature which is a consequence of the original sin commited by Adam and Eve.
I'm not claiming we don't sin now, but even those who didn't have a chance to sin (like little babies) even they need baptism to enter heaven, so how is that fair??

Thanks in advance, and God Bless

Comments

  • IngyIngy
    This could be my imagination getting away with me again but here goes. The way I understand it is that we all inherited the original sin at birth, that is why we are baptized and 'cleansed' from it.(I'm not sure if that's the right word) Later on in life we can either chose to be the image of God or not through our deeds.
    On coptichymns.net I found a post on dualism and what I understood from it was a person has a nature for good and evil.
    I honestly do not think I have reached theosis but when I have had a seizure I hear a noise and then zone out. I was thinking (and I know others are) when I recover am I a good person ;) or evil ???.
  • joegjoeg
    Yes, we inherit original sin at birth as well as the fallen nature, but through baptism, the old nature is destroyed, and the old sin is forgiven as we are buried with Christ, and the new nature is gained:

    "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." (Romans 6:3-6)

    "Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him" (Colossians 3:9-10)

    "that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Ephesians 4:22-24)

    And Origen has tended towards heretical teachings (concerning the preexistence of souls end other heresies) he was anathamised by Pope Demetrius in 230AD, and his views are not to be taken.

    pray for me

    joe
  • Unknown
    I think we believe that in Adam all have sinned, which means that the original offense committed by him caused human nature, common to all men, to fall to a state in which it bears the consequences of that offense, and which is not the state in which it was at first in our first parents, established as they were in holiness and justice, and in which man knew neither evil nor death. It is human nature so fallen, stripped of the grace that clothed it, injured in its own natural powers and subjected to the dominion of death, that is transmitted to all men, and it is in this sense that every man is born in sin. So, as far as I can see, the fallen or flawed nature IS the result of the original sin. We inherit both. Its basic sense that we receive the nature of our parents. 

    The union of humanity with divinity in Jesus Christ restored, in the Person of Christ, the mode of existence of humanity, so that those who are incorporated in him may participate in this mode of existence, be saved from sin and death, and be united to God in deification. Original sin is cleansed in humans through baptism. Therefore, in baptism, there is also forgiveness of sins.

    What I would like to know is:


    If we inherit this fallen nature from our birth, by virtue of what Adam's sin; if our parents are already baptised, then do we ourselves require baptism? Surely we will inherit their justified nature?? No??

    ANyway, perhaps its late and I can't think straight.. let me know.
    Thanks


  • godislove260godislove260
    I also don't understand:

    Why do we inherit the fallen nature but not salvation...
    I mean when we're born we don't really deserve any of them... I mean an infant which hasn't sinned nor done good deeds is kind of neutral...

    I'm sure these must be really silly, basic questions, so plz excuse my ignorance..
    God Bless
  • coptic pharoahcoptic pharoah
    We do inherit Salvation...  we get it when are Babtized but we have to work to keep it...   

    and about Children inheriting the fallen nature.... it isn't their fault, it is the fault of our ancestors...  just like you said in the first post...  some children get AIDS from their parents, they didn't do anything to get it, or to deserve it... they just inherit it....
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    The Orthodox church does not believe in us inheriting the ORIGINAL SIN. Some other christian denominations believe in this. God is not going to punish you for something someone else did thousands of years ago.

    We inherited the falled nature, which is a 100% guarentee that it will cause sin. The reason we get baptised so that we can SHARE in christs death and ressurection. This is not to say that our nature changes back to the perfect nature, No.

    Romans 6:3-7 do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

    What this verse is saying is baptism is the means by which what happened on the cross, gets put ON me. Baptism is the connection between what Jesus did and how it affects me. Baptism means "dyed" into christs death buriel and ressurection. (Quote from Father Anthony Messeh)
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6729.msg91026#msg91026 date=1213816470]
    The Orthodox church does not believe in us inheriting the ORIGINAL SIN. Some other christian denominations believe in this. God is not going to punish you for something someone else did thousands of years ago.

    We inherited the falled nature, which is a 100% guarentee that it will cause sin. The reason we get baptised so that we can SHARE in christs death and ressurection. This is not to say that our nature changes back to the perfect nature, No.

    Romans 6:3-7 do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

    What this verse is saying is baptism is the means by which what happened on the cross, gets put ON me. Baptism is the connection between what Jesus did and how it affects me. Baptism means "dyed" into christs death buriel and ressurection. (Quote from Father Anthony Messeh)


    Hi,
    I think we have to be really carefull of definitions. We do not inherit the guilt of that sin. (this is the difference between us and the catholics).

    So, Meena - u are 110% correct. Its the catholics who believe they inherit the guilt. lol

    Yeah, anyway - if our parents are baptised, how come we do not inherit the justified nature that they received when they were baptised??? Why do we need to be baptised also???
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6729.msg91032#msg91032 date=1213820723]
    [quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6729.msg91026#msg91026 date=1213816470]
    The Orthodox church does not believe in us inheriting the ORIGINAL SIN. Some other christian denominations believe in this. God is not going to punish you for something someone else did thousands of years ago.

    We inherited the falled nature, which is a 100% guarentee that it will cause sin. The reason we get baptised so that we can SHARE in christs death and ressurection. This is not to say that our nature changes back to the perfect nature, No.

    Romans 6:3-7 do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

    What this verse is saying is baptism is the means by which what happened on the cross, gets put ON me. Baptism is the connection between what Jesus did and how it affects me. Baptism means "dyed" into christs death buriel and ressurection. (Quote from Father Anthony Messeh)


    Hi,
    I think we have to be really carefull of definitions. We do not inherit the guilt of that sin. (this is the difference between us and the catholics).

    So, Meena - u are 110% correct. Its the catholics who believe they inherit the guilt. lol

    Yeah, anyway - if our parents are baptised, how come we do not inherit the justified nature that they received when they were baptised??? Why do we need to be baptised also???



    Because Baptism also requires faith. The Lord said, who ever BELEIVES and is baptised will be saved. Plus our nature does not change, we inherit the same fallen nature from our parents. But when our parents our baptised through the faith of their parents getting them baptised, the death and ressurection of christ is put onto them. But their nature remains the same.
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