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Baby DIES!?!?!?!

Basant TawfikBasant Tawfik
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
wut if a baby dies before being baptized, wut happens. like i mean does he go to heaven or hell!?!?!

Comments

  • jydeaconjydeacon
    That is not for us to know, God IS the Just Judge, and is fair. The baby did nothing wrong. I've heard that if a baby dies without being baptized, it still goes to paradise but is blind of the glory of God. but nobody really knows
  • Basant TawfikBasant Tawfik
    [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6308.msg83278#msg83278 date=1204494955]
    That is not for us to know, God IS the Just Judge, and is fair. The baby did nothing wrong. I've heard that if a baby dies without being baptized, it still goes to paradise but is blind of the glory of God. but nobody really knows


    how can it go to heaven if it is born with the original sin?
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    nobody is born with the original sin, thats a misconception that many have due to western influences, we are born with a corrupt nature. we do not inherit sin. And again what i said is not a fact. just something i heard. nobody really knows where the baby will go. its not important for us to focus on details like that because no matter what we do the baby's life is in Gods hand, and if God so Wills that he should take the baby before its baptism than who are we to argue with Him? Let Gods Will be Done.

    God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    I think its really wrong to believe that a baby would go to hell if he were not baptised... If you believe God is a just judge than you cannot accept this... Jesus even said himself.. "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

    The child does infact inherit the NATURE of the sinner, but has NO sin, and it was infact God who chose for the baby to die.. Can anyone sit here and actually say that God created a baby, and then killed if before it got the chance to be baptised and than sent him straight to hell? Or can anyone sit here and say God created a child and killed him, allowing him to go to heaven but not see the glory of God?

    If you honestly believe these things than you dont believe God is a just judge, and you DONT beleive God loves us.. and you DONT believe God gives free will, because the baby had no free will, he/she was taken by the will of God... and a priest told me that everything God does, is actually the BEST thing for you, God does everything in our best interest.. Do you think its in the best interest for a baby to be born and than the next minute be burning in hell?
  • clayclay
    Let's take solace in the fact that God is more merciful than us.
  • pp
    John,
    Actually, you are both correct and incorrect.

    Correct: No one can directly inherit sin

    Incorrect: God's will to take a baby before Baptism. God would never have a will to take a baby before Baptism, and it is very well known. Why would He, if He knows, that the baby is going to get closer to Him? That is very ironic.

    Also, in fact, God had kept a wrath on humanity that will never end due to Adam's sin (death if a serpent strikes your heel). Finally, this is the only sin, of which its punishment is also put on its descendants.
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    [quote author=aem581 link=topic=6308.msg83325#msg83325 date=1204524324]
    God would never have a will to take a baby before Baptism, and it is very well known. Why would He, if He knows, that the baby is going to get closer to Him? That is very ironic.



    How can it not be God's will?? If the baby dies who's choice was it? surely not the baby's. God is the only one with the power to give life and take it away. and you can't say never. how do you know what Gods will is? ( i say that with the utmost respect for you and your opinion)
  • Mira8388hMira8388h
    [quote author=*Thirsty+For+Christ* link=topic=6308.msg83276#msg83276 date=1204494771]
    wut if a baby dies before being baptized, wut happens. like i mean does he go to heaven or hell!?!?!


    I think this question was asked before, and the answer to it is..... The baby will go to heaven but they will be blind and won't see anything!
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    i agree 100% with jydeacon... nothing can happen without the permission of God... Ofcourse God allows man to sin because of free will, but a baby has no say in the matter, therefore it is the will of God to take the baby or let him live.

    "God had kept a wrath on humanity that will never end due to Adam's sin"

    i dont believe this statement is EXACTLY true, because his wrath ended with Jesus Christ death. The only reason we suffer here on earth is because we dont listen to God, meaning we do our will and not Gods, and we get ourselves into trouble. Our small punishments from God are not his "wrath" against humanity, they are actually meant to help us not punish us, st paul writes "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory"

  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    [quote author=bentBABAyasooa` link=topic=6308.msg83333#msg83333 date=1204564570]
    [quote author=*Thirsty+For+Christ* link=topic=6308.msg83276#msg83276 date=1204494771]
    wut if a baby dies before being baptized, wut happens. like i mean does he go to heaven or hell!?!?!


    I think this question was asked before, and the answer to it is..... The baby will go to heaven but they will be blind and won't see anything!


    Personally i wouldnt say that isnt fair, for God to CHOOSE for a baby to be born, and than take away the babies life and blind him from the glory of God, meanwhile giving everyone else the chance to see his glory. And we all agree that God is more fair than anyone in the universe...and i dont think 1 person in the entire universe would say that this is fair.. so i believe if God chooses to take away the babies life, than he will show him all the glory of heaven because he took away the babies chance to choose for himself.
  • bishoykhalibishoykhali
    First of all, the world was perfect, so were we. Then we commited the original sin, and nature became corrupted through us. Do you think people would have gotten diseases, birth defects, or even any notions of sadness in Eden? I don't think so. When nature be came corrupt and we fell from Eden, all these imperfections started to form. Having the babies die is part of this corruption, it came with the diseases, birth defects, cannibalism of the animal kingdom, as well as our nature to sin. This is the one thing that everyone is born with.
    Sure, God can save the baby when he/she is born, but he can also save the many dying children in Somalia, or the starving babies in Africa, or the innocent people in Darfur. After all, if it weren't for that same corrupt nature, they'd be all living happily in Eden with us too. So the question here is not if God chooses if the baby, or the many starving people in this world, dies, but rather should god intervene and correct this corrupted nature?
    I really don't think that we should wonder on this question because we should just trust God to do what's right, and we will never understand His reasons or his decisions until the last day, so until then we should just do our best to help those in need and pray that God may show compassion on His creation.

    As for where the baby goes after dying: why should we wonder where it will go?
    Knowing where the baby will go won't affect any of us, and we should just trust God's judgment about where its going to go.

    However, we shouldn't try to guess what that judgment will be because if we do that, it will mean that we are trying to subject God's infinite wisdom and reasoning under our limited mind's intellect and logic. Please keep in mind that God is infinite in understanding and knows things that no human will ever know, except maybe in the last day. With that infinite knowledge and understanding, God can make choices like these that may seem very tough to make to us, but, I'm sure, are as apparent as air to Him.

    Don't take anything I said for fact, I am only another human, like you, and am most probably wrong.

    Bishoy
  • Unknown
    There is no debate about this. The baby wis innocent and will go to heaven. Some people apply that without baptism he/she will not be able to see God. If this is correct or not, let it not bother us. Let us now think about our selves and how we can inherit eternal life.
    By the way what is meant by the inherited sin is Adam and eve's as everybody says. That is what all humans have in common. Note that sins can't be inherited at all except for this one. This sin is inherited as we are born on earth. If Adam and eve didn't sin we wouldn't be here at all (if we even existed). 
  • bishoykhalibishoykhali
    actually lost, we don't inherit the sin, just the corrupted nature that resulted of the original sin
  • Meena_AmeenMeena_Ameen
    thats true... many people think we inherited the actual sin which is incorrect, the only thing we  inherited is the corrupt nature (death by sin), before adam and eve sinned our nature was incorruptable as made by God. But by the envy of the devil he made us bring death upon ourselfes, and so we inherited the nature to sin, and no one can escape this nature so everyone is basically born into this nature but not into the actually sin adam and eve commited, that is their own. God will not judge us for a crime we didnt commit, ever.. But our fallen nature makes us create our own crimes which God will judge.
  • LifeinChristLifeinChrist
    this topic is weird, personally i do not worry about matter greater than me, ultimately nothing we say or do will change God's will.
  • bishoykhalibishoykhali
    God does not force His will unto us. We pray to him so that he may forgive our sins and help us get closer to Him. Sometimes, we do things that are not of His will, and these are the sins. However, He does not stop us from doing this, and proof of this is the imperfect world we live in that has crime and violence. So we pray that the Lord's "will be done" (The Lord's Prayer ie. "Our Father who art in Heaven...").
    I've probably explained this wrong, maybe someone can clarify it.
    Pray for me,
    Bishoy
  • LifeinChristLifeinChrist
    i think u misunderstood me. in a case like this, where a baby dies before being baptised, nothing we say or do now will change the fate of the baby, what happened, happened. so we can say the baby should go to heaven but God can say no, or we can say the baby shouldnt go to heaven and God again could say no. this is all his judgement, not ours.
  • Unknown
    Nobody knows. They might turn to angels if god wants...
  • bishoykhalibishoykhali
    I agree with His Servant, but Lost, I think that even though they can, if God wills, I really don't think that will happen because they are humans after the likeness of God, it doesn't make sense that God would change their true nature, its not as if angels are perfect either, and they are still capable of sin; so I don't know about that one...
    I should really stop thinking about this...
    pray for me
  • Unknown
    If the baby dies after being baptized, if God will let that ever happen, is it a free ticket to Heaven??

    Forever,
    Coptic Servent
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    of course, the baby didn't do anything, then for sure if its baptized and it does die it goes to paradise for sure
  • Unknown
    I have a feeling that what we are recycling our previous posts again and again and again. The point is let it not bother us (although I am sure that babies will go to heaven + no inherited sin because we inherit the consequences of the sin). If a baby dies before baptism or after is not our problem. You see I have a problem that troubles me. What happend to the people who die before christ was incarnated? I mean I know that righteous people were taken but...
    + I know that somtimes we are desperate for knowledge but it is better if we had a simple faith and not let small points like this lead us away from our main purpose.
    Pray for me + sorry if I was a bit harsh.
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