<b>1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption</b>
Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is a place where "we atone for our sins" while atonement is the work of our Lord Jesus Christ alone. The Basis of the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption is that man is incapable of paying for the Divine Justice no matter how much he does, he suffers, or is punished.
- Stop right there. We already have a disagreement. We believe that Jesus Christ sanctifies us as through fire. The work of atonement is His alone which is why Purgatory is by Christ's power alone. Whether it's by Jesus Christ's blood, a cloak (as some Protestants may say), altar call, or purgatorial fire, Christ is the one sanctifiying us. Purgatory is a place where Christ makes us pure, so we can enter into Heaven.
The Holy Bible says, "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Rom 3:24-25)
- As I said this is Purgatory, justification/sanctification done completly by Christ. The problem is when are we sanctfied which leads to when is salvation attained, Catholics answer with a resounding crie, after judgment.
"If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 Jn 2:1-2)
- Sins are forgiven after repentance, so what happens when you die but have no repented? Especially fr venial sins.
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (1 Jn 4:10)
- Again it is all Christ, any RC that disagrees isn't RC.
<b>2. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation</b>
Salvation is only by blood and only the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ is the only purge. "The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 Jn 1:7). 'All sin' refers to every kind of sin mentioned by the Catholics the mortal, the venial or any other. The only condition is repentance "confess our sins" "walk in the light" (1 Jn 1:7,9). St Paul says, "But with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb 9:12). Purgatory is an insult to the work of the Cross for we say that on the Cross appeared the Divine Love "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" (Jn 3:16) How would that love agree with the pain of purgatory for forgiven sins and unintentional sins?
- Again this confusion is among the many Protestant denominations too. Jesus Christ's blood is what purifies us amen. Yet we are not forgiven until after repentance, so say you die, and have not gone to confession, but are free of mortal sins, you would go to Purgatory where Christ finishes His work in you. The Purgatory that people believe the RCC teaches is an insult the actual doctrine is not only biblical and historical but logical. The reason why it is painful in Purgatory is because we are letting go of ourselves. There is no RC teaching that say's it is a physical pain. We must become complelty pure letting go of ourselves and giving ourselves completly to Christ, something only He can do.
To believe in the purgatory is to believe of a partial salvation as if Christ came to save us from the shame of sin not from its penalty.
- To believe in Purgatory is to believe that salvation is not attained until after judgment after death, and only Jesus Christ can save us from the sin and it's penalty.
<b>3. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance</b>
Repentance blots sin, God forgives it and does not remember it. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. (Acts 3:19)
- Again what happens if you die without repentance? Your lying on your death bed free of mortal sin, have not gone to confession and been absolved and you die. You are free of deadly sin but not pure of heart, so Christ completly and wholey sanctifies you, as through fire which purifies. If anyman's works burn he will still be saved.
I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. (Isa 44:22)
- Past tense, and it's true. You go to confession and all the sins previously and up to that point are blotted out, but what happens if you didn't get to confession or didn't make a true one?
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, nailed to the cross. (Col 2:13,14).
- Sins are forgiven upon repentance, if you did not repent the sin is not forgiven.
I, even I, am He Who blots out transgressions for My own sake and I will not remember your sins. (Isa 43:25).
<b>The Coptic Orthodox view on the Prayer for the Departed</b>
We pray for those who departed from this world not because we believe in the purgatory but following St. Paul who prayed for Onesiphorus saying, "The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day" (2 Tim 1:18). In that Day meant in the Day of Judgment, as he said "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." (2 Tim 4:8) St. Paul was not asking for mercy in the purgatory but on the Day of Judgment when he stands before the Just Judge. We pray for the departure that God may grant them rest in the place of waiting for the Day of Judgment has not come yet. Those departed are awaiting without worry or unrest. The litany for the departed does not mention the purgatory at all. We pray saying, "Sustain them in a green pasture, by the water of rest in the paradise of joy, the place out of which grief, sorrow and groaning have fled away" This is definitely not the description of the purgatory for the purgatory contrarily is a place of grief, sorrow and groaning.
- We pray for the departed who are in purgatory awaiting heavens glory. Though full assurance is endowed to the inhabitants of Purgatory they cannot enter into such an awesome God's prescence until they are pure, and that means truly pure, of heart, of mind and of soul. The difference between imputed and infused is just that. RCC teaching is that God truly makes us worthy by infusing His grace into our very hearts and souls truly making us worthy, not just saying we are when we really aren't.
Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer. She absolves her from all the sins she committed while in the flesh. We say to God, 'this soul has departed from us absolved by the church. We do not retain any sin for her … we intercede for her for You O Lord know the weakness of man."
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82380#msg82380 date=1203384672] [quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82378#msg82378 date=1203384272] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122] We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
He did not enter Heaven, Heaven is still closed to us. He entered paradise not heaven,
- Alright i'm having problems with this one. The greek word used in Luke 24:43 is "paradeisos", which is not heaven "ouranos". Even further Jesus Christ tells the theif that him and Christ will be in paridise that day. They didn't go to heaven, but to paradise. Jesus arose to heaven later after the three days. I can't find where it say's the theif went to heaven, or that Jesus opened the gates of heaven.
Purgatory (Merriam-Webster's): 1: an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification; specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven 2: a place or state of temporary suffering or misery
Do you believe that punishment or misery ensure Sanctification?
- I do not believe that it is our suffereing that sanctifies us rather that we are suffering because of the sanctification which is as through fire. Christ's sanctification purifies us, His blood makes us whole again, the problem is it must blot out everything, which would be more than likely spiritual pain.
I've yet to meet a Christian that does not believe in Purgatory.
Most probably you haven't met them all.
1 John 1:7 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
- and if you do not walk in the light per se and die with venial sin, before we could repent, what then?
[quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82432#msg82432 date=1203438417] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82380#msg82380 date=1203384672] [quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82378#msg82378 date=1203384272] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122] We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
He did not enter Heaven, Heaven is still closed to us. He entered paradise not heaven,
- Alright i'm having problems with this one. The greek word used in Luke 24:43 is "paradeisos", which is not heaven "ouranos". Even further Jesus Christ tells the theif that him and Christ will be in paridise that day. They didn't go to heaven, but to paradise. Jesus arose to heaven later after the three days. I can't find where it say's the theif went to heaven, or that Jesus opened the gates of heaven.
He didn't, Christ arose from the dead on the feast of Resurrection not to heaven. He ascended into the heaven of Heavens after 40 days of His Glorious Resurrection. Although He and of Himself is still in Heaven at the same time. Heaven is not open to us. Only the Paradise of Joy. If you die without confessing any sins (we don't believe in mortal and non-mortal as i said before) you don't enter paradise and go to hades. thats it. God is not wishy washy with us. He's Just. you don't confess/repent you don't go to paradise.
Well, as for me.....i know that the church refuses this thought because all of us are pure with the presence pf the holy spirit within us. also, the thought seems to be vague, if there are elected people for heaven why don't they go to heaven why wait up until being purified. i think the catholics expressed the paradise and hades as the purgatory...... its only a thought also to share ....... correct me anyway..........thnx :)
Sorry I did not get a chance to reply to my previous comment regarding the Orthodox Church and salvation.
Basically, we know that there is only one church: ALL of us say this EVERY Sunday in our services. In the creed, throughout the Divine Liturgy/Mass, and so on. When we say this, are we just lying, in front of God and his holy altar, and all of the angels attending the service with us?
From the Nicene Creed: [quote= The Nicene Creed] And in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age. Amen.
When the Church Fathers wrote this, they were under the influence and power of the Holy Spirit. There are some who drifted from the one holy, catholic and apostolic church, today known as the Orthodox Church, and so those that drifted are not, in a way, complete.
As far as purgatory goes, it is seen as punishment and certainly that is not God's plan for anyone. As we say, God does not desire the death of a sinner but that he returns and lives. This is not done by force, as can be seen in Purgatory, but rather by our own free will. We decide if we want life or death through our descisions in this life.
-Alright I can see what you mean on Purgatory. Can someone tell me the Coptic beliefs in general.
- For instance
- Roman Catholic teaching on salvation- grace with faith and works - Roman Catholic teaching on judgment- we are judged immediantly after death, and our fate is decided, we go to either heaven or hell, then there is a seperate general judgment. - Roman Catholic teaching on Christ's nature= 2 natures, consequently immaculate conception.
and various teachings, I just want a feel for where the Coptic Church stands on various theological issues. Thanks for all the help your posts have been great so far. -In Christ Jesus
lol can I just point out to everyone that this discussion is all over the place - how can everyone keep up with the confusion of conflicting topics lol
[quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82483#msg82483 date=1203487052] -Alright I can see what you mean on Purgatory. Can someone tell me the Coptic beliefs in general.
- For instance
- Roman Catholic teaching on salvation- grace with faith and works - Roman Catholic teaching on judgment- we are judged immediantly after death, and our fate is decided, we go to either heaven or hell, then there is a seperate general judgment. - Roman Catholic teaching on Christ's nature= 2 natures, consequently immaculate conception.
and various teachings, I just want a feel for where the Coptic Church stands on various theological issues. Thanks for all the help your posts have been great so far. -In Christ Jesus
Well we believe Christ United the two natures into one therefore only having one nature. "He made it one with His Divinity, without mingling without confusion and without alteration" Taken from the confession of the priest. And we do not believe in St. Mary's immaculate conception. Had she been born immaculatly then she could have been our savior but she was not and said "my soul magnifies my lord and SAVIOR." Nor do we believe that we inherit the sin Adam and Eve committed but the corrupt nature that befell them becuase of that sin. If we were to inherit the sin of Adam and Eve then whats to say we don't inherit our parents sins, which of course we don't. This concept was disproven by our Lord Himself in the case of the man born blind. "Neither this man nor his parents sinned" That was a common misconception among the jews of that time as well. I agree with JosephGabriel, Historicalparadox please ask your questions in a different topic(create a different one i mean) so that this one can stay on course with the discussion on purgatory and we'll be glad to answer your questions there.
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. :)
You knowing that the way is difficult to you, is the foundation of your future transformed life! Instead of wishing for purgatory (I know you are not praying that God makes a purgatory lol), just pray more fervently that the Blood of Christ cleanse you from sin, and for repentance. And pray for me.
Ezekiel 18:19-23 19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
The Lord wants everybody be saved but He is also Just. The Lord speaks very clearly in this short sentence: "The soul who sins shall die." We cannot redefine sin, here it is clear that "the wages of sin is death" - any sin. We are all sinning most of the time with or without premeditation, etc. all sins shall lead to the same sad result, while nobody can achieve and keep perfect quasi purity for long periods. Indeed, there are sinners and sins that are worse than others as there are sins that appear to be less serious than others - but sin is sin. There is no such thing as mortal and venial sins: by principle all sins are mortal. May be there will be worse sentencing for worse sinners but all shall be in hell.
When Jesus explained: John 15
1 “I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
The bold part of the verse is Jesus Christ's own words. He explains that the withered branches are burned. Now let's see, if cast out branches are burned is it a temporary burning or a definitive, final one? Will they be in a better shape or purer state than before? Will they be grafted back to the Vine?
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82609#msg82609 date=1203611170] Ezekiel 18:19-23 19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
The Lord wants everybody be saved but He is also Just. The Lord speaks very clearly in this short sentence: "The soul who sins shall die." We cannot redefine sin, here it is clear that "the wages of sin is death" - any sin. We are all sinning most of the time with or without premeditation, etc. all sins shall lead to the same sad result, while nobody can achieve and keep perfect quasi purity for long periods. Indeed, there are sinners and sins that are worse than others as there are sins that appear to be less serious than others - but sin is sin. There is no such thing as mortal and venial sins: by principle all sins are mortal. May be there will be worse sentencing for worse sinners but all shall be in hell.
When Jesus explained: John 15
1 “I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
The bold part of the verse is Jesus Christ's own words. He explains that the withered branches are burned. Now let's see, if cast out branches are burned is it a temporary burning or a definitive, final one? Will they be in a better shape or purer state than before? Will they be grafted back to the Vine?
GBU
- The only way Purgatory won't make sense to an RC if you can show them biblically that there is no difference between sin. The verses you posted prove what happens when you commit deadly sin. Here is the main reference for the difference between the sins.
1 John 5:16, "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask."
Some sin leads to death but not all, as we see in v. 17 "All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death." neccesarily implying there is a sin which is not unto death.
That verse you mentions does not mean that there are two different sins but saying that if you see your brother sinning and repenting than it will be good for you to help him, but if he is not repenting stay away so that you are not pulled into the sin with him. Because if he is sinning and not repenting that leads to death.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82616#msg82616 date=1203616222] That verse you mentions does not mean that there are two different sins but saying that if you see your brother sinning and repenting than it will be good for you to help him, but if he is not repenting stay away so that you are not pulled into the sin with him. Because if he is sinning and not repenting that leads to death.
- 1 John 5:16 "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin (which is not to death), let him ask: and life shall be given to him (who sinneth not to death)..."
How can we sin not to death? There are different consequences for sins. A heartless murderer will not recieve the same punishment as one who blasphemes. Though both lead to death (seperation of God) the consequences are different. This is not what 1st John speaks of, more then the consequences the nature of the sin it's self is being discussed. Is this sin a concious choice against God, a submission to sin regardless of knowlege of it's consequences or is it a habit, a sub-concious reaction i.e. cussing, calling the Lord's name in vain when you get hurt? - The difference is not just the consequence, but the nature. Deadly- a choice against God, severing your ties with Him, leading to eternal destruction. Not deadly- only a reaction, a habit, not a concious choice. All sin leads to death, 'all' meaning venial or mortal. The difference is the nature, deadly which will alway's lead to death from a choice, not deadly leading to death if it is not corrected over a long period of time because it can lead to mortal sin.
In summary - all sin leads to death - Deadly sin is a concious choice against God, a choice of death over life. - Venial sin leads to Mortal sin. - Therefore all sin venial or mortal lead to death.
[quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82621#msg82621 date=1203617067] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82616#msg82616 date=1203616222] That verse you mentions does not mean that there are two different sins but saying that if you see your brother sinning and repenting than it will be good for you to help him, but if he is not repenting stay away so that you are not pulled into the sin with him. Because if he is sinning and not repenting that leads to death.
- 1 John 5:16 "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin (which is not to death), let him ask: and life shall be given to him (who sinneth not to death)..."
How can we sin not to death? There are different consequences for sins. A heartless murderer will not recieve the same punishment as one who blasphemes. Though both lead to death (seperation of God) the consequences are different. This is not what 1st John speaks of, more then the consequences the nature of the sin it's self is being discussed. Is this sin a concious choice against God, a submission to sin regardless of knowlege of it's consequences or is it a habit, a sub-concious reaction i.e. cussing, calling the Lord's name in vain when you get hurt? - The difference is not just the consequence, but the nature. Deadly- a choice against God, severing your ties with Him, leading to eternal destruction. Not deadly- only a reaction, a habit, not a concious choice. All sin leads to death, 'all' meaning venial or mortal. The difference is the nature, deadly which will alway's lead to death from a choice, not deadly leading to death if it is not corrected over a long period of time because it can lead to mortal sin.
In summary - all sin leads to death - Deadly sin is a concious choice against God, a choice of death over life. - Venial sin leads to Mortal sin. - Therefore all sin venial or mortal lead to death.
That is RC theology anyways.
That is not what i meant when i said that sorry, i wasn't clear. Yes the sin leads to death that he is committing but once he repents and confesses it, it litterally does not exsist anymore so you can't think of it as in punishment here on earth. of course a murderer will not get the same punishment as a someone who steals for ex. but if he confesses it and repents it is wiped away and God forgets it. so in that sense it doesn't lead to death. sorry i would like to right more to explain but i'm in a hurry sorry.
Not to ruin the party, but there really is no point to this debate. First of all, the catholics are just as hard headed as we are, and nothing we say will change their views on Purgatory ANYWAYS. This debate is useless because why should I care whether there is purgatory or not? I should strive to reach spiritual perfection in this world, and live a life of repentance and confession; and if there was purgatory, then, with any hope, I won't need to be there for long, and if there isn't, then hopefully my repentance will be enough to cover for my many sins in the eyes of our merciful Saviour and God. St. Paul said "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." (1 Corinth 14:33). And when St. Anthony pondered on the world to come and such deep and philosophical topics, the angel appeared to him and told him to stop considering such thoughts because they'll not benefit him. "Everything is meet, but not everything is beneficial" This discussion is certainly not beneficial, and hopefully we can find something better to do with our time than discuss a subject that will not affect our lives or our ways of thinking.
Please forgive me, I am a sinner and came upon this idea while reading the many pages of replies to this post. I am most probably wrong, and correct me if I am, I am merely a child in faith.
God Bless,
Bishoy PS if you are considering purgatory as a basis to change your dogma and become and RC, then I really suggest reading Pope Shenouda's book on purgatory (it was mentioned in one of the earlier posts), we can discuss the book as sort of a book discussion if you would like.
In the Name of the Father+ and the Son+ and of the Holy Spirit+, the One True God. Amen.
The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that our prayers for the departed are beneficial for them, however we can't say how. Orthodoxy doesn't need to explain everything like the Roman Catholics do. We are more into diving in the ocean and they are more into talking about it. We enjoy Mystery. We contemplate and worship God not dissect Him as a science project ready to be studied. He is tooo great for us to ever understand! Let us just be grateful for His ever-abundant mercy and love for us.
Comments
excerpt from article on purgatory on the coptic orthodox southern diocese website:
http://www.suscopts.org/literature/literature.php?subaction=showfull&id=1084916893&archive=&start_from=&ucat=3&;
"The Coptic Orthodox View on the Purgatory
<b>1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption</b>
Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is a place where "we atone for our sins" while atonement is the work of our Lord Jesus Christ alone. The Basis of the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption is that man is incapable of paying for the Divine Justice no matter how much he does, he suffers, or is punished.
- Stop right there. We already have a disagreement. We believe that Jesus Christ sanctifies us as through fire. The work of atonement is His alone which is why Purgatory is by Christ's power alone. Whether it's by Jesus Christ's blood, a cloak (as some Protestants may say), altar call, or purgatorial fire, Christ is the one sanctifiying us. Purgatory is a place where Christ makes us pure, so we can enter into Heaven.
The Holy Bible says,
"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Rom 3:24-25)
- As I said this is Purgatory, justification/sanctification done completly by Christ. The problem is when are we sanctfied which leads to when is salvation attained, Catholics answer with a resounding crie, after judgment.
"If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 Jn 2:1-2)
- Sins are forgiven after repentance, so what happens when you die but have no repented? Especially fr venial sins.
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (1 Jn 4:10)
- Again it is all Christ, any RC that disagrees isn't RC.
<b>2. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation</b>
Salvation is only by blood and only the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ is the only purge. "The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 Jn 1:7). 'All sin' refers to every kind of sin mentioned by the Catholics the mortal, the venial or any other. The only condition is repentance "confess our sins" "walk in the light" (1 Jn 1:7,9). St Paul says, "But with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb 9:12). Purgatory is an insult to the work of the Cross for we say that on the Cross appeared the Divine Love "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" (Jn 3:16) How would that love agree with the pain of purgatory for forgiven sins and unintentional sins?
- Again this confusion is among the many Protestant denominations too. Jesus Christ's blood is what purifies us amen. Yet we are not forgiven until after repentance, so say you die, and have not gone to confession, but are free of mortal sins, you would go to Purgatory where Christ finishes His work in you. The Purgatory that people believe the RCC teaches is an insult the actual doctrine is not only biblical and historical but logical. The reason why it is painful in Purgatory is because we are letting go of ourselves. There is no RC teaching that say's it is a physical pain. We must become complelty pure letting go of ourselves and giving ourselves completly to Christ, something only He can do.
To believe in the purgatory is to believe of a partial salvation as if Christ came to save us from the shame of sin not from its penalty.
- To believe in Purgatory is to believe that salvation is not attained until after judgment after death, and only Jesus Christ can save us from the sin and it's penalty.
<b>3. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance</b>
Repentance blots sin, God forgives it and does not remember it.
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. (Acts 3:19)
- Again what happens if you die without repentance? Your lying on your death bed free of mortal sin, have not gone to confession and been absolved and you die. You are free of deadly sin but not pure of heart, so Christ completly and wholey sanctifies you, as through fire which purifies. If anyman's works burn he will still be saved.
I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. (Isa 44:22)
- Past tense, and it's true. You go to confession and all the sins previously and up to that point are blotted out, but what happens if you didn't get to confession or didn't make a true one?
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, nailed to the cross. (Col 2:13,14).
- Sins are forgiven upon repentance, if you did not repent the sin is not forgiven.
I, even I, am He Who blots out transgressions for My own sake and I will not remember your sins. (Isa 43:25).
<b>The Coptic Orthodox view on the Prayer for the Departed</b>
We pray for those who departed from this world not because we believe in the purgatory but following St. Paul who prayed for Onesiphorus saying, "The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day" (2 Tim 1:18). In that Day meant in the Day of Judgment, as he said "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." (2 Tim 4:8) St. Paul was not asking for mercy in the purgatory but on the Day of Judgment when he stands before the Just Judge. We pray for the departure that God may grant them rest in the place of waiting for the Day of Judgment has not come yet. Those departed are awaiting without worry or unrest. The litany for the departed does not mention the purgatory at all. We pray saying, "Sustain them in a green pasture, by the water of rest in the paradise of joy, the place out of which grief, sorrow and groaning have fled away" This is definitely not the description of the purgatory for the purgatory contrarily is a place of grief, sorrow and groaning.
- We pray for the departed who are in purgatory awaiting heavens glory. Though full assurance is endowed to the inhabitants of Purgatory they cannot enter into such an awesome God's prescence until they are pure, and that means truly pure, of heart, of mind and of soul. The difference between imputed and infused is just that. RCC teaching is that God truly makes us worthy by infusing His grace into our very hearts and souls truly making us worthy, not just saying we are when we really aren't.
Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer. She absolves her from all the sins she committed while in the flesh. We say to God, 'this soul has departed from us absolved by the church. We do not retain any sin for her … we intercede for her for You O Lord know the weakness of man."
[quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82378#msg82378 date=1203384272]
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122]
We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
He did not enter Heaven, Heaven is still closed to us. He entered paradise not heaven,
- Alright i'm having problems with this one. The greek word used in Luke 24:43 is "paradeisos", which is not heaven "ouranos". Even further Jesus Christ tells the theif that him and Christ will be in paridise that day. They didn't go to heaven, but to paradise. Jesus arose to heaven later after the three days. I can't find where it say's the theif went to heaven, or that Jesus opened the gates of heaven.
1: an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification; specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven
2: a place or state of temporary suffering or misery
Do you believe that punishment or misery ensure Sanctification?
- I do not believe that it is our suffereing that sanctifies us rather that we are suffering because of the sanctification which is as through fire. Christ's sanctification purifies us, His blood makes us whole again, the problem is it must blot out everything, which would be more than likely spiritual pain. Most probably you haven't met them all.
1 John 1:7
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
- and if you do not walk in the light per se and die with venial sin, before we could repent, what then?
GBU
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82380#msg82380 date=1203384672]
[quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82378#msg82378 date=1203384272]
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122]
We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
He did not enter Heaven, Heaven is still closed to us. He entered paradise not heaven,
- Alright i'm having problems with this one. The greek word used in Luke 24:43 is "paradeisos", which is not heaven "ouranos". Even further Jesus Christ tells the theif that him and Christ will be in paridise that day. They didn't go to heaven, but to paradise. Jesus arose to heaven later after the three days. I can't find where it say's the theif went to heaven, or that Jesus opened the gates of heaven.
He didn't, Christ arose from the dead on the feast of Resurrection not to heaven. He ascended into the heaven of Heavens after 40 days of His Glorious Resurrection. Although He and of Himself is still in Heaven at the same time. Heaven is not open to us. Only the Paradise of Joy. If you die without confessing any sins (we don't believe in mortal and non-mortal as i said before) you don't enter paradise and go to hades. thats it. God is not wishy washy with us. He's Just. you don't confess/repent you don't go to paradise.
i think the catholics expressed the paradise and hades as the purgatory......
its only a thought also to share ....... correct me anyway..........thnx :)
Basically, we know that there is only one church: ALL of us say this EVERY Sunday in our services. In the creed, throughout the Divine Liturgy/Mass, and so on. When we say this, are we just lying, in front of God and his holy altar, and all of the angels attending the service with us?
From the Nicene Creed:
[quote= The Nicene Creed]
And in one holy, catholic and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age. Amen.
When the Church Fathers wrote this, they were under the influence and power of the Holy Spirit. There are some who drifted from the one holy, catholic and apostolic church, today known as the Orthodox Church, and so those that drifted are not, in a way, complete.
As far as purgatory goes, it is seen as punishment and certainly that is not God's plan for anyone. As we say, God does not desire the death of a sinner but that he returns and lives. This is not done by force, as can be seen in Purgatory, but rather by our own free will. We decide if we want life or death through our descisions in this life.
- For instance
- Roman Catholic teaching on salvation- grace with faith and works
- Roman Catholic teaching on judgment- we are judged immediantly after death, and our fate is decided, we go to either heaven or hell, then there is a seperate general judgment.
- Roman Catholic teaching on Christ's nature= 2 natures, consequently immaculate conception.
and various teachings, I just want a feel for where the Coptic Church stands on various theological issues. Thanks for all the help your posts have been great so far.
-In Christ Jesus
sorry just had to point that out...
joe
-Alright I can see what you mean on Purgatory. Can someone tell me the Coptic beliefs in general.
- For instance
- Roman Catholic teaching on salvation- grace with faith and works
- Roman Catholic teaching on judgment- we are judged immediantly after death, and our fate is decided, we go to either heaven or hell, then there is a seperate general judgment.
- Roman Catholic teaching on Christ's nature= 2 natures, consequently immaculate conception.
and various teachings, I just want a feel for where the Coptic Church stands on various theological issues. Thanks for all the help your posts have been great so far.
-In Christ Jesus
Well we believe Christ United the two natures into one therefore only having one nature. "He made it one with His Divinity, without mingling without confusion and without alteration" Taken from the confession of the priest. And we do not believe in St. Mary's immaculate conception. Had she been born immaculatly then she could have been our savior but she was not and said "my soul magnifies my lord and SAVIOR." Nor do we believe that we inherit the sin Adam and Eve committed but the corrupt nature that befell them becuase of that sin. If we were to inherit the sin of Adam and Eve then whats to say we don't inherit our parents sins, which of course we don't. This concept was disproven by our Lord Himself in the case of the man born blind. "Neither this man nor his parents sinned" That was a common misconception among the jews of that time as well.
I agree with JosephGabriel, Historicalparadox please ask your questions in a different topic(create a different one i mean) so that this one can stay on course with the discussion on purgatory and we'll be glad to answer your questions there.
But I doubt if it is real. ???
You knowing that the way is difficult to you, is the foundation of your future transformed life! Instead of wishing for purgatory (I know you are not praying that God makes a purgatory lol), just pray more fervently that the Blood of Christ cleanse you from sin, and for repentance. And pray for me.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
The Lord wants everybody be saved but He is also Just.
The Lord speaks very clearly in this short sentence: "The soul who sins shall die."
We cannot redefine sin, here it is clear that "the wages of sin is death" - any sin. We are all sinning most of the time with or without premeditation, etc. all sins shall lead to the same sad result, while nobody can achieve and keep perfect quasi purity for long periods. Indeed, there are sinners and sins that are worse than others as there are sins that appear to be less serious than others - but sin is sin. There is no such thing as mortal and venial sins: by principle all sins are mortal. May be there will be worse sentencing for worse sinners but all shall be in hell.
When Jesus explained:
John 15
1 “I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
The bold part of the verse is Jesus Christ's own words. He explains that the withered branches are burned. Now let's see, if cast out branches are burned is it a temporary burning or a definitive, final one? Will they be in a better shape or purer state than before? Will they be grafted back to the Vine?
GBU
Ezekiel 18:19-23
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
The Lord wants everybody be saved but He is also Just.
The Lord speaks very clearly in this short sentence: "The soul who sins shall die."
We cannot redefine sin, here it is clear that "the wages of sin is death" - any sin. We are all sinning most of the time with or without premeditation, etc. all sins shall lead to the same sad result, while nobody can achieve and keep perfect quasi purity for long periods. Indeed, there are sinners and sins that are worse than others as there are sins that appear to be less serious than others - but sin is sin. There is no such thing as mortal and venial sins: by principle all sins are mortal. May be there will be worse sentencing for worse sinners but all shall be in hell.
When Jesus explained:
John 15
1 “I am the true Vine, and My Father is the Vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
The bold part of the verse is Jesus Christ's own words. He explains that the withered branches are burned. Now let's see, if cast out branches are burned is it a temporary burning or a definitive, final one? Will they be in a better shape or purer state than before? Will they be grafted back to the Vine?
GBU
- The only way Purgatory won't make sense to an RC if you can show them biblically that there is no difference between sin. The verses you posted prove what happens when you commit deadly sin. Here is the main reference for the difference between the sins.
1 John 5:16, "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask."
Some sin leads to death but not all, as we see in v. 17 "All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death." neccesarily implying there is a sin which is not unto death.
That verse you mentions does not mean that there are two different sins but saying that if you see your brother sinning and repenting than it will be good for you to help him, but if he is not repenting stay away so that you are not pulled into the sin with him. Because if he is sinning and not repenting that leads to death.
- 1 John 5:16 "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin (which is not to death), let him ask: and life shall be given to him (who sinneth not to death)..."
How can we sin not to death? There are different consequences for sins. A heartless murderer will not recieve the same punishment as one who blasphemes. Though both lead to death (seperation of God) the consequences are different. This is not what 1st John speaks of, more then the consequences the nature of the sin it's self is being discussed. Is this sin a concious choice against God, a submission to sin regardless of knowlege of it's consequences or is it a habit, a sub-concious reaction i.e. cussing, calling the Lord's name in vain when you get hurt?
- The difference is not just the consequence, but the nature. Deadly- a choice against God, severing your ties with Him, leading to eternal destruction. Not deadly- only a reaction, a habit, not a concious choice. All sin leads to death, 'all' meaning venial or mortal. The difference is the nature, deadly which will alway's lead to death from a choice, not deadly leading to death if it is not corrected over a long period of time because it can lead to mortal sin.
In summary
- all sin leads to death
- Deadly sin is a concious choice against God, a choice of death over life.
- Venial sin leads to Mortal sin.
- Therefore all sin venial or mortal lead to death.
That is RC theology anyways.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82616#msg82616 date=1203616222]
That verse you mentions does not mean that there are two different sins but saying that if you see your brother sinning and repenting than it will be good for you to help him, but if he is not repenting stay away so that you are not pulled into the sin with him. Because if he is sinning and not repenting that leads to death.
- 1 John 5:16 "He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin (which is not to death), let him ask: and life shall be given to him (who sinneth not to death)..."
How can we sin not to death? There are different consequences for sins. A heartless murderer will not recieve the same punishment as one who blasphemes. Though both lead to death (seperation of God) the consequences are different. This is not what 1st John speaks of, more then the consequences the nature of the sin it's self is being discussed. Is this sin a concious choice against God, a submission to sin regardless of knowlege of it's consequences or is it a habit, a sub-concious reaction i.e. cussing, calling the Lord's name in vain when you get hurt?
- The difference is not just the consequence, but the nature. Deadly- a choice against God, severing your ties with Him, leading to eternal destruction. Not deadly- only a reaction, a habit, not a concious choice. All sin leads to death, 'all' meaning venial or mortal. The difference is the nature, deadly which will alway's lead to death from a choice, not deadly leading to death if it is not corrected over a long period of time because it can lead to mortal sin.
In summary
- all sin leads to death
- Deadly sin is a concious choice against God, a choice of death over life.
- Venial sin leads to Mortal sin.
- Therefore all sin venial or mortal lead to death.
That is RC theology anyways.
That is not what i meant when i said that sorry, i wasn't clear. Yes the sin leads to death that he is committing but once he repents and confesses it, it litterally does not exsist anymore so you can't think of it as in punishment here on earth. of course a murderer will not get the same punishment as a someone who steals for ex. but if he confesses it and repents it is wiped away and God forgets it. so in that sense it doesn't lead to death. sorry i would like to right more to explain but i'm in a hurry sorry.
First of all, the catholics are just as hard headed as we are, and nothing we say will change their views on Purgatory ANYWAYS. This debate is useless because why should I care whether there is purgatory or not? I should strive to reach spiritual perfection in this world, and live a life of repentance and confession; and if there was purgatory, then, with any hope, I won't need to be there for long, and if there isn't, then hopefully my repentance will be enough to cover for my many sins in the eyes of our merciful Saviour and God.
St. Paul said "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." (1 Corinth 14:33). And when St. Anthony pondered on the world to come and such deep and philosophical topics, the angel appeared to him and told him to stop considering such thoughts because they'll not benefit him. "Everything is meet, but not everything is beneficial" This discussion is certainly not beneficial, and hopefully we can find something better to do with our time than discuss a subject that will not affect our lives or our ways of thinking.
Please forgive me, I am a sinner and came upon this idea while reading the many pages of replies to this post. I am most probably wrong, and correct me if I am, I am merely a child in faith.
God Bless,
Bishoy
PS if you are considering purgatory as a basis to change your dogma and become and RC, then I really suggest reading Pope Shenouda's book on purgatory (it was mentioned in one of the earlier posts), we can discuss the book as sort of a book discussion if you would like.
The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that our prayers for the departed are beneficial for them, however we can't say how. Orthodoxy doesn't need to explain everything like the Roman Catholics do. We are more into diving in the ocean and they are more into talking about it. We enjoy Mystery. We contemplate and worship God not dissect Him as a science project ready to be studied. He is tooo great for us to ever understand! Let us just be grateful for His ever-abundant mercy and love for us.