It would be foolish for me to give a list that is going to Heaven. I am not going to play God. I do know that we were given the ways and means to Salvation through Our Christ and the Apostolic Tradition through the One, Universal (Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Our God makes the final decision, through His Mercy, as to who enters. I would say that there are Coptics that are not going to heaven. I think all of these issues have been covered plenty of times over on this forum.
Let's stick to being Orthodox and carry out faithfully that calling and pray for others, and all else will take care of itself. If we act like the 'light of the world', then we will be th 'light of the world', and help all to reach together the Kingdom of God.
We must look at the model of the Church as it started in the first century with the Apostles: how did they understand the Church? We must use Scripture, for that’s what we rely on most. Many people have a misunderstanding about Orthodoxy – they think we do not rely enough on Scripture, but instead rely only on dogma. That is completely wrong; Scripture is the foundation and cornerstone of our Church, and the basis of all our understanding, faith and tradition. Look at what Acts 2:30-43 says about the early Church: “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine, in fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.” That is the Church, then and now.
Sorry duck, though I was only targeting "those who believe in the purgatory". It is not meant as an attack but as a sincere serious wake up call.
Only The Lord is the Just Judge of humanity, who can possibly reach His Holy Wisdom?
I have Coptic Catholic relatives (by default they do follow the RCC). They are fully aware and assert that on countless occasions, earlier in history and still recently, the RCC had been promoting various payable price-tagged indulgences.
They also assert the RCC may deny or fail to deliver the Extreme Unction at the time of death (the RCC's own interpretation and strange practice of denying the Holy Anointment for Healing of the Sick, the Holy Sacrament that heals sickness and also gives a free "plenary pardon" to the faithful by Our Lord Jesus' Grace).
They also assert that the Holy Baptism is not done as was once shown by Christ Himself. Their children are also denied full communion for many years till their pre-teen age. Is this their practice or not? For these reasons many leave the RC Church, some were lucky to revert to the COC. Fact is it's indeed their original Church some grandpa once decided to leave.
When they are asked to explain who is the Head of the Church they have drop jaws when they discover that the Real Head of the Church is Our Lord Jesus Christ - and NOT the RCC pontiff.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6158.msg82165#msg82165 date=1203057005] This shouldnt be a huge discussion... Purgatory simply does not exist for the 2 simple reasons...
1) Everything we ever learned from the apostes and saints we have kept GLADLY... And when the roman catholics began adding things to the faith we remained True to what we have recieved and kept only that which was taught by God through the apostles and not by a church that said "well this SOUNDS like its true and KINDA makes sense, and i can back it up with 1 or 2 verses". That is not proof enough for the orthodox church. The strongest Proof is that we have recieved the faith ONCE as the bible says, and we recieved everything about the faith.. Anything New we reject jsut as the bible COMMANDS us to..not suggests, but COMMANDS us to keep only what we have been passed down from the apostles and there successors.
2) We did not leave it at that, but by the word of God we have many explanations out their even by the Pope himself explaining WHY purgatory is not real.. Mainly because it is an insult to the sacrifice of Christ saying his suffering wasnt enough.. when we die we must still suffer a little.. That is EXACTLY what purgatory means. Their may be another perspective to it, but when you really think about it, and think about everything Christ taught, believing in purgatory is to believe Chirsts sacrifice wasnt 100% sufficient. It is to believe that Christ suffered for us so that we wouldnt have to suffer for eternity but rather suffer for a little while. No, Christ took everything on his shoulders not some sins, but all the sins of the world. He was God, and everything God does is perfect, and for God to sacrifice himself was the PERFECT sacrifice, and no sin could overcome that, he overcame everything on the cross, he defeated satan. To believe in purgatory is beleive that Christ indeed did not defeat satan completely because regardless we still have to suffer for the sins satan temps us to fall in, which is satan goal. The thing that satan hates is the fact that Christ's death meant we were saved from all punishment. To believe in purgatory is to believe we were saved from some punishment.
1) A place of "temporal punishment" can be found in many of the Fathers writings (see a few posts up), it was not a later invention out of the blue..."but one that became articulated progressively and identified as Purgatory in the latter times." (quoting clay a few post before)...
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6158.msg82165#msg82165 date=1203057005] and we recieved everything about the faith..
can you outline for me exactly what was received directly from the apostles?
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6158.msg82165#msg82165 date=1203057005] "well this SOUNDS like its true and KINDA makes sense, and i can back it up with 1 or 2 verses".
So then, if you will, explain to me the meaning of the verses I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, from the orthodox perspective?
2) Does it make Christ's death incomplete? I don't think so...Christ's death was sufficient to win our redemption and for the allowing of the Holy Spirit to sanctify us.
It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross. (http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6158.msg82165#msg82165 date=1203057005] The thing that satan hates is the fact that Christ's death meant we were saved from all punishment. To believe in purgatory is to believe we were saved from some punishment.
The punishment you refer to, in which Christ saved us from is the eternal punishment a.k.a. hell...the idea of purgatory still holds, because in the end you avoid the eternal seperation from God.
if we define the punishment your speaking of as temporal punishment, then we know for sure Christ's death was incomplete, because we are all punished/disciplined for things we do here on earth. If a father forgives his son of commiting a terrible act (stealing, lying, fighting, etc...), would he not punish him although he forgave him? Of course he wouldn't...the son would have to go through some degree of punishment (for example no video games for a week) although the father forgave him of his wrongdoing.
The same logic applies here, you can say we are temporally punished (in many different ways) for the sins we commit, and the doctrine of purgatory says (this is not the full doctrine, but just one partof it) that you will be temporally punished in purgatory for sins commited on earth (remember the father punishing the boy although he forgave him) ...Christ's death enabled the Father to even forgive us, it didn't strip his power of temporally punishing us. Hence temporal punishment does not make Christ's death useless.
Of course he wouldn't...the son would have to go through some degree of punishment (for example no video games for a week) although the father forgave him of his wrongdoing.
This is typical of our limited human behavior and thinking. If a father forgives his son then he does not (and certainly should not) punish him. He rather wants to teach his son that there may be sequels on Earth (to himself and to others) because of his wrong doing and wants his son to understand he has to take responsibility plus avoid repeating what he did.
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82190#msg82190 date=1203109414] Only The Lord is the Just Judge of humanity, who can possibly reach His Holy Wisdom?
very humbling :)...agreed
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82190#msg82190 date=1203109414] I have Coptic Catholic relatives (by default they do follow the RCC). They are fully aware and assert that on countless occasions, earlier in history and still recently, the RCC had been promoting various payable price-tagged indulgences.
I never questioned the fact that the RCC abused indulgences (note, the selling of indulgences isn't necc. a bad thing, depends on the motive behind the person...and also note that the selling of indulgences is NOT and for stronger emphasis NOT used to remove sins..so for example you cannot assume your are free to commit X number of sins because you donated Y number of dollars to build a church that is absurd Not that you put forth that view, but others have I think somewhere along this thread)
...but does it make sense to say that because it was abused, indulgences are inherently evil? Of course not, it would be foolish to think so. Look around and you will see many good things poisoned by individuals with the wrong motives (the internet, TV, and even some of the church maarads that sell fake designer bags and clothes that are illegal...)
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82190#msg82190 date=1203109414] They also assert that the Holy Baptism is not done as was once shown by Christ Himself. Their children are also denied full communion for many years till their pre-teen age. Is this their practice or not? For these reasons many leave the RC Church, some were lucky to revert to the COC. Fact is it's indeed their original Church some grandpa once decided to leave.
Not something I agree with, but I can see where people are coming from when they put forth this position...it has its pros and cons
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82190#msg82190 date=1203109414] When they are asked to explain who is the Head of the Church they have drop jaws when they discover that the Real Head of the Church is Our Lord Jesus Christ - and NOT the RCC pontiff.
That is a hugeee generalisation...but also a cheap shot at the RCC and all of their followers. The deep level of respect they put forth to their Pope is nothing different than the way we treat H.H. Pope Shenouda. Have you never seen a church where H.H. walks down the middle of the church only to be grabbed and tugged continuously by all the people to the point where he needs to be escorted by security guards?? Go figure.
I would not put the love and reverence for His Holiness Pope Shenouda III by the faithful of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the same realm as that for Pope Benedict XVI by the RCC faithful. It is not a generalization that there is a "demi-god" status accorded to the Roman Pontiff.
I think the hulabaluh that is carried by the Copts for their Father is cultural and we certainly, in our language and verbiage do not ascribe him demi-god status.
The RCC uses the term: Vicar of Christ, or Vicar of the Church. Gee, Vicar of the Church, is that demi-god or what. I think John_S2000 is on target with his comments.
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82193#msg82193 date=1203111289] If a father forgives his son then he does not (and certainly should not) punish him. GBU
This is turning into a parenting issue lol...But when a kid does something wrong the father eventually forgives however it wouldn't be wise to forget the consequences, consequences must follow.
Heres the example of King David in the OT:
2 Samuel, chapter 12 (KJV) 13: And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. 14: Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
Here David's sin was forgiven, however his consequences still followed.
[quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=6158.msg82200#msg82200 date=1203114451] I would not put the love and reverence for His Holiness Pope Shenouda III by the faithful of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the same realm as that for Pope Benedict XVI by the RCC faithful. It is not a generalization that there is a "demi-god" status accorded to the Roman Pontiff.
I think the hulabaluh that is carried by the Copts for their Father is cultural and we certainly, in our language and verbiage do not ascribe him demi-god status.
The RCC uses the term: Vicar of Christ, or Vicar of the Church. Gee, Vicar of the Church, is that demi-god or what. I think John_S2000 is on target with his comments.
haha, Are you kidding me?? Demi-God? sorry, but that was funny lol
No but seriously, all you really saying is that you are familiar with the anti-pope rhetoric found in many protestant circles. I guess we can make the same argument with the term His Holiness, because according to Rev 15:4
"4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. "
So by applying the same standard, we conclude that the term His Holiness is as "demi-God"'ish as "Vicar of Christ"...And atleast my comparison has scriptural backing (Just so nobody gets mad, this is not my view, just defending the "Vicar of Christ" phrase")
So in conclusion, both phrases are used to express honor and respect...
Nope not at all. I didn't start this thread to defend the RCC but unfortunately thats how the page is turning...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! Along with the obsurd comments people make towards RC's really make me pray they don't go saying this stuff to them, it is really insulting...
You go look at some protestant circles and you see the way they make a parody of the RCC. Misrepresenting them on a plethora of issues (saying they believe their pope is a demi-god) and concluding that the RCC church is a tyrant (the hor of bablyon in revelation ), ridiculing their followers and pope by saying he is the anti-christ and their followers are dimwits who don't think and observantly follow because they know no better.....The same disrespect (granted it isn't as vulgar) is right here on this thread
Here David's sin was forgiven, however his consequences still followed
.
What this has to do with purgatory? You lost the debate and now, to back your claim, are trying to bring examples from the Holy Bible that does not apply to this situation!!! I understand that certain sins have severe consequences, while the person is still alive, even if the person committing them has repented and confessed his sins. If a person commits a murder God will forgive him if he sincerely repents and is penalized by the church and God will not send him to the purgatory, but he must be jailed or suffered the death penalty. Purgatory is, from the point of view of the Catholic Church is the punishment of a confessed and repented person after death to fire.
Here David's sin was forgiven, however his consequences still followed
.
What this has to do with purgatory? You lost the debate and now, to back your claim, are trying to bring examples from the Holy Bible that does not apply to this situation!!! I understand that certain sins have severe consequences, while the person is still alive, even if the person committing them has repented and confessed his sins. If a person commits a murder God will forgive him if he sincerely repents and is penalized by the church and God will not send him to the purgatory, but he must be jailed or suffered the death penalty. Purgatory is, from the point of view of the Catholic Church is the punishment of a confessed and repented person after death to fire.
You obviously have not read anything written and maybe have stumbled upon that quote, or maybe you did but failed to follow the chain of logic of what you were reading. Let me explain to you why it applies to the situation:
My argument rested on the assertion that sins don't go without punishment. Hence if a sin went without punishment on earth, it would have been taken up in purgatory. I related it a human father/son relationship. If the son does something wrong, the father gets angry but eventually forgives the son (assuming a loving father here of course)...However the father does not let the misdeed go without punishment. Its the same thing with God and to prove that I pointed out an example in the Bible.
I was not using that example to prove purgatory...I don't know how you got to that conclusion. I used the example to strengthen the initial assertion that all sins have consequences. The question it obviously doesn't address is whether you can pay the consequences after you die (hence purgatory), which again, is not something I was trying to prove using that example.
[quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg82206#msg82206 date=1203117350] ...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! ...
We know that salvation can only be attained in our Orthodox Church. What drives you to make the above statement?
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6158.msg82219#msg82219 date=1203134422] [quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg82206#msg82206 date=1203117350] ...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! ...
We know that salvation can only be attained in our Orthodox Church. What drives you to make the above statement?
That is a sharp statement. Our God is a just God; just because a person is no longer part of the Orthodox Church does not mean they no longer have the opportunity of salvation. There are many Catholics and Protestant people who are far greater than many of us (Mother Theresa anyone?). What matters, truly, is the person's heart and faith. Would a nondevout Orthodox person be given preference over a highly devout Catholic, just based on their denomination?
Duck be careful about what you are saying and dont argue for the sake of arguing... You know that purgatory cant be right, otherwise you would no longer be coptic, so try to open your ears and dont be so quick to attack people. If you want to have a spiritual discussion on this topic (NOT A DEBATE), then keep the spiritual part in it and dont get so flustered. Im sure that just made you more mad so Im sorry, but it had to be said The whole idea behind purgatory is that we are not good enough after we die to go to heaven because we have traces of sin on us, making us unworthy. It makes sense, but our church doesnt go off what makes sense. This idea of entering into heaven while imperfect can be applied to communion. Are we truly worthy to partake of communion. No we are not. The Priest says in the liturgy the Holies are for the Holy. Are we Holy? Again Christ says you must be perfect just as my Father in heaven is perfect. Are we perfect? We are called to be worthy to paratke of Christ, holy, and Perfect in the same way that the Father is perfect. Such a person that is worthy, holy, and perfect would definetly enter paradise. However, I dont know anyone like that and i dont think you do either. We struggle to attain worthiness, holiness, and perfection, and only by struggling though Gods help can we be considered worthy, Holy, and perfect. In the same way the purity needed to enter paradise can only be attained through a life of repentance and struggle. No one is truly pure enough to enter into eternal existance with God; it is a grace of which we are unworthy. Only through repentance with God's help can we reach this purity. And unless you live a life of repentance, you can not go to heaven. If you do live this life you go to heaven. You say that Saints are the people that will go straight to heaven because they are already purified. Then the people who arent at the level of saint but are good will need to make atonment in purgatory. The difference between a Saint and this seconde person is that the Saint falls into sin but gets back up. A Saint is NOT sinless, but is a person who has struggled more than most and lived a solid life of repentance. A saint on his own is not pure enough to enter heaven, but his struggle is what purifies him. This Same struggle is what we are called to. As for purgatory, it seems like a second chance for those who have not lived a complete life of repentance, but only a partial one. And we all know what God says about people in the middle, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" Rev 3:16. There is not Purgatory for these people, only Heaven and Hell
That was beautiful. I just wanted to add something, the idea of purgatory as has been said by many people destroys the idea of hades because this way no matter what you are going to heaven. I think that the RCC was asked if someone was a good person and died in sin what would happen and they had no answer and had to find again something logical. But after this "logical" purgatory they realized that it does not fit the idea of Christianity and are now not emphasizing on it as they used to. Of course they can't say that they have removed it because it is already in their books so they try not to bring it up anymore. This is I think what happened or moved this idea of purgatory, although it goes COMPLETLEY against Heaven and hell, because how in any way shape or form will anyone according to purgatory go to hell. Purgatory makes it so everyone will go to heaven. ??? How does this make sense????
No one on this website, or in the entire world has the authority to even speak the words of "whos going to heaven and who is not". The Only person who can say such things is he who created heaven and earth, ofcourse our Lord Jesus Christ.
But to get on the topic of which church is the correct church is to SIMPLY go back to the apostolic times and ask the question, which church has kept everything the apostles taught, and kept the same worship traditions, sacraments, and doctrine. The protestants know it, the catholics know, all denominations know that the ONLY church that kept these things is the Orthodox church, and its nearly impossible to argue that "the orthodox church changed a certain doctrine", it is not found anywhere in history where the orthodox church changed a doctrine simply because it does not exist. Historically speaking, every other denomination of christianity in the world has come up with their own ideas of doctrine because it may sound somewhat logical.. Just like satan tricked adam and eve by making his lie sound logical to them, so did satan trick many church leaders into knew and incorrect doctrine. For he is a liar John 8:44
But in the words of Paul himself.. 2 Corinthains 11:3-4 But I have a fear, that in some way, as Eve was tricked by the deceit of the snake, your minds may be turned away from their simple and holy love for Christ. 4 For if anyone comes preaching another Jesus from the one whose preachers we are, or if you have got a different spirit, or a different sort of good news from those which came to you, how well you put up with these things.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6158.msg82219#msg82219 date=1203134422] [quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg82206#msg82206 date=1203117350] ...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! ...
We know that salvation can only be attained in our Orthodox Church. What drives you to make the above statement?
- I can defend the Purgatorial belief of the Church of Rome from a Biblical and Historical perspective, wouldn't be the first time. But this exclusion of the Roman Catholics in salvation is a new one for me. I've heard it from Protestant's before but their salvific system is faulty and can be argued into the ground on biblical terms. What reasoning do you have for thinking the Orthodox Church can only be saved, being a Roman Catholic I would say the same thing from my perspective.
- Purgatory is Christ's perfect sacrificial act on the cross being transmitted to us in a sanctifying manner in Purgatory. The fire is not in-animate fire, we're not purified by our own power, it's by Christ alone that we are sanctified. I've yet to meet a Christian that does not believe in Purgatory. Purgatory=sanctification. It's when it happens that we seem to disagree on. The definition of salvation is rarely brought up. When we think about it's definition and it's neccesary implications it's essential to soterological discussions. Particularly purgatory. What is salvation? When does it happen? How do we achieve this? Catholic teaching is simple. Salvation is a process, and is not achieved until after our works based judgment after death. Meaning we have a chance to go to hell all the way up to the end, making our state of concious fundamental. Before we die, have we repented? There are 2 types of sin, deadly and not deadly. Deadly=a sin we conciously choose to committ well aware of the consequences. Not deadly sin (venial)=habitual, sub-concious. Christ forgives us our sins upon repentance and we are purged of it's stain (like cognitive therapy) through Christ's sanctifying acts. If we die and are free of mortal (deadly) sin but have venial sin we are worthy of Heaven by Christ's sacrifice, but are not completly cleansed (we need Christ to wholey sanctify us) so we enter into Purgatory in which Christ's sacrificial act cleanses us as through fire, and we are admitted into God's presence blameless because of Him.
[quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg81704#msg81704 date=1201884517] Not that I know much detail on the topic, but after reading some of the catholic doctrine on purgatory...it kind of makes sense on some levels... let me explain
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). " (As defined on catholic.com....http://catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
I know we have all asked the question when we were younger to our parents or our sunday school teachers, "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" because we all know...
"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)
And the usual response (atleast to me) is that if we were truly repentant then God will accept there repentence although they are still guilty without the need of confession and communion.
Now the catholic dogma seems to solve this problem apparent problem, but takes it a few steps further in defining which sins let gives you hope in purgatory (venial and mortal)....howeever if we removed this boundary line of sins, do you think the dogma can hold?
Basically what I am saying is that, we die in sins for sure no matter what....And nothing can enter heaven unclean...see the gap that a dogma similar to purgatory (but not exact to the catholic version) can fill?
This is just a thought that has been running around in my brain for some time now....thoughts any1?
[quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82363#msg82363 date=1203381287] [quote author=Severus link=topic=6158.msg82219#msg82219 date=1203134422] [quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg82206#msg82206 date=1203117350] ...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! ...
We know that salvation can only be attained in our Orthodox Church. What drives you to make the above statement?
- I can defend the Purgatorial belief of the Church of Rome from a Biblical and Historical perspective, wouldn't be the first time. But this exclusion of the Roman Catholics in salvation is a new one for me. I've heard it from Protestant's before but their salvific system is faulty and can be argued into the ground on biblical terms. What reasoning do you have for thinking the Orthodox Church can only be saved, being a Roman Catholic I would say the same thing from my perspective.
It's not that RCs think they are the only ones who can go to heaven, but that they say they have the true faith and can get to heaven easier than others who dont have the true faith 100%. i've been told sarcastically by RCs who know that I am orthodox that "nobody's perfect"
We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122] We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
- I have not met a Christian that doesn't believe in Purgatory. Purgatory is sanctification. Like I said it's when it happens that is of relevance. When are we sanctified, is it a process or a declaration? Confession is not negated because of Purgatory, i'm a little confused on that one. You confess to your priest, are forgiven then do a pennetential act to wipe away your stain. If before your death, you are forgiven and do pennance you go to heaven. I agree all sin leads to death. Deadly sin being a concious choice against God. It's like saying alright I know if I do this it will offend God, I realize that I will be thus severing my ties with God but I am going to do it anyway's. This is deadly because it automatically is a monopoly ticket to hell, your choosing hell over God. A venial sin, is a bad habit, like cussing when you stub your toe, or taking the Lord's name in vain without even thinking about it. You weren't doing these on purpose it was almost a reaction, still venial leads to damnation if they are not repented of in a long run because they can lead to a sin dominant life. But you can go to heaven if you die without having venial sin forgiven. Thus deadly, and not deadly. Jesus Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, it's not stuck in the past to be remembered it's very real for each of us in all ages. That sacrifice allowed us to go to Heaven, where as we couldn't pre-Christ. Because of His death and ressurection we can go to Heaven, but it's a process in which Christ sanctifies us our whole lives. If we were not sanctified completly in this life, Christ completes this in the next, either way it's all Christ not us. When Christ forgave the thief during their crucifixion, He baptised the man in means of baptism by desire, and forgave all his sins, and cleansed him right then and there. Of course he didn't go to Purgatory, he was not only baptised, and forgiven but purified. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
[quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82378#msg82378 date=1203384272] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122] We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
He did not enter Heaven, Heaven is still closed to us. He entered paradise not heaven,
[quote author=Historicalparadox link=topic=6158.msg82378#msg82378 date=1203384272] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122] We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
- I have not met a Christian that doesn't believe in Purgatory. Purgatory is sanctification. Like I said it's when it happens that is of relevance. When are we sanctified, is it a process or a declaration? Confession is not negated because of Purgatory, i'm a little confused on that one. You confess to your priest, are forgiven then do a pennetential act to wipe away your stain. If before your death, you are forgiven and do pennance you go to heaven. I agree all sin leads to death. Deadly sin being a concious choice against God. It's like saying alright I know if I do this it will offend God, I realize that I will be thus severing my ties with God but I am going to do it anyway's. This is deadly because it automatically is a monopoly ticket to hell, your choosing hell over God. A venial sin, is a bad habit, like cussing when you stub your toe, or taking the Lord's name in vain without even thinking about it. You weren't doing these on purpose it was almost a reaction, still venial leads to damnation if they are not repented of in a long run because they can lead to a sin dominant life. But you can go to heaven if you die without having venial sin forgiven. Thus deadly, and not deadly. Jesus Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, it's not stuck in the past to be remembered it's very real for each of us in all ages. That sacrifice allowed us to go to Heaven, where as we couldn't pre-Christ. Because of His death and ressurection we can go to Heaven, but it's a process in which Christ sanctifies us our whole lives. If we were not sanctified completly in this life, Christ completes this in the next, either way it's all Christ not us. When Christ forgave the thief during their crucifixion, He baptised the man in means of baptism by desire, and forgave all his sins, and cleansed him right then and there. Of course he didn't go to Purgatory, he was not only baptised, and forgiven but purified. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
excerpt from article on purgatory on the coptic orthodox southern diocese website:
<b>1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption</b>
Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is a place where "we atone for our sins" while atonement is the work of our Lord Jesus Christ alone. The Basis of the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption is that man is incapable of paying for the Divine Justice no matter how much he does, he suffers, or is punished.
The Holy Bible says, "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Rom 3:24-25)
"If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 Jn 2:1-2)
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (1 Jn 4:10)
<b>2. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation</b>
Salvation is only by blood and only the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ is the only purge. "The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 Jn 1:7). 'All sin' refers to every kind of sin mentioned by the Catholics the mortal, the venial or any other. The only condition is repentance "confess our sins" "walk in the light" (1 Jn 1:7,9). St Paul says, "But with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb 9:12). Purgatory is an insult to the work of the Cross for we say that on the Cross appeared the Divine Love "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" (Jn 3:16) How would that love agree with the pain of purgatory for forgiven sins and unintentional sins?
To believe in the purgatory is to believe of a partial salvation as if Christ came to save us from the shame of sin not from its penalty.
<b>3. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance</b>
Repentance blots sin, God forgives it and does not remember it. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. (Acts 3:19)
I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. (Isa 44:22)
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, nailed to the cross. (Col 2:13,14).
I, even I, am He Who blots out transgressions for My own sake and I will not remember your sins. (Isa 43:25).
<b>The Coptic Orthodox view on the Prayer for the Departed</b>
We pray for those who departed from this world not because we believe in the purgatory but following St. Paul who prayed for Onesiphorus saying, "The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day" (2 Tim 1:18). In that Day meant in the Day of Judgment, as he said "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." (2 Tim 4:8) St. Paul was not asking for mercy in the purgatory but on the Day of Judgment when he stands before the Just Judge. We pray for the departure that God may grant them rest in the place of waiting for the Day of Judgment has not come yet. Those departed are awaiting without worry or unrest. The litany for the departed does not mention the purgatory at all. We pray saying, "Sustain them in a green pasture, by the water of rest in the paradise of joy, the place out of which grief, sorrow and groaning have fled away" This is definitely not the description of the purgatory for the purgatory contrarily is a place of grief, sorrow and groaning.
Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer. She absolves her from all the sins she committed while in the flesh. We say to God, 'this soul has departed from us absolved by the church. We do not retain any sin for her … we intercede for her for You O Lord know the weakness of man."
Purgatory (Merriam-Webster's): 1: an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification; specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven 2: a place or state of temporary suffering or misery
Do you believe that punishment or misery ensure Sanctification?
I've yet to meet a Christian that does not believe in Purgatory.
Most probably you haven't met them all.
1 John 1:7 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
Comments
...We are not the only ones going to Heaven...
Interesting. What other groups, do you think, will?
Our God makes the final decision, through His Mercy, as to who enters. I would say that there are Coptics that are not going to heaven. I think all of these issues have been covered plenty of times over on this forum.
Let's stick to being Orthodox and carry out faithfully that calling and pray for others, and all else will take care of itself. If we act like the 'light of the world', then we will be th 'light of the world', and help all to reach together the Kingdom of God.
If I am saying something wrong, please feel free to correct me.
Sorry duck, though I was only targeting "those who believe in the purgatory". It is not meant as an attack but as a sincere serious wake up call.
Only The Lord is the Just Judge of humanity, who can possibly reach His Holy Wisdom?
I have Coptic Catholic relatives (by default they do follow the RCC). They are fully aware and assert that on countless occasions, earlier in history and still recently, the RCC had been promoting various payable price-tagged indulgences.
They also assert the RCC may deny or fail to deliver the Extreme Unction at the time of death (the RCC's own interpretation and strange practice of denying the Holy Anointment for Healing of the Sick, the Holy Sacrament that heals sickness and also gives a free "plenary pardon" to the faithful by Our Lord Jesus' Grace).
They also assert that the Holy Baptism is not done as was once shown by Christ Himself. Their children are also denied full communion for many years till their pre-teen age. Is this their practice or not? For these reasons many leave the RC Church, some were lucky to revert to the COC. Fact is it's indeed their original Church some grandpa once decided to leave.
When they are asked to explain who is the Head of the Church they have drop jaws when they discover that the Real Head of the Church is Our Lord Jesus Christ - and NOT the RCC pontiff.
GBU
This shouldnt be a huge discussion... Purgatory simply does not exist for the 2 simple reasons...
1) Everything we ever learned from the apostes and saints we have kept GLADLY... And when the roman catholics began adding things to the faith we remained True to what we have recieved and kept only that which was taught by God through the apostles and not by a church that said "well this SOUNDS like its true and KINDA makes sense, and i can back it up with 1 or 2 verses". That is not proof enough for the orthodox church. The strongest Proof is that we have recieved the faith ONCE as the bible says, and we recieved everything about the faith.. Anything New we reject jsut as the bible COMMANDS us to..not suggests, but COMMANDS us to keep only what we have been passed down from the apostles and there successors.
2) We did not leave it at that, but by the word of God we have many explanations out their even by the Pope himself explaining WHY purgatory is not real.. Mainly because it is an insult to the sacrifice of Christ saying his suffering wasnt enough.. when we die we must still suffer a little.. That is EXACTLY what purgatory means. Their may be another perspective to it, but when you really think about it, and think about everything Christ taught, believing in purgatory is to believe Chirsts sacrifice wasnt 100% sufficient. It is to believe that Christ suffered for us so that we wouldnt have to suffer for eternity but rather suffer for a little while. No, Christ took everything on his shoulders not some sins, but all the sins of the world. He was God, and everything God does is perfect, and for God to sacrifice himself was the PERFECT sacrifice, and no sin could overcome that, he overcame everything on the cross, he defeated satan. To believe in purgatory is beleive that Christ indeed did not defeat satan completely because regardless we still have to suffer for the sins satan temps us to fall in, which is satan goal. The thing that satan hates is the fact that Christ's death meant we were saved from all punishment. To believe in purgatory is to believe we were saved from some punishment.
1) A place of "temporal punishment" can be found in many of the Fathers writings (see a few posts up), it was not a later invention out of the blue..."but one that became articulated progressively and identified as Purgatory in the latter times." (quoting clay a few post before)...
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6158.msg82165#msg82165 date=1203057005]
and we recieved everything about the faith..
can you outline for me exactly what was received directly from the apostles?
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6158.msg82165#msg82165 date=1203057005]
"well this SOUNDS like its true and KINDA makes sense, and i can back it up with 1 or 2 verses".
So then, if you will, explain to me the meaning of the verses I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, from the orthodox perspective?
2) Does it make Christ's death incomplete? I don't think so...Christ's death was sufficient to win our redemption and for the allowing of the Holy Spirit to sanctify us.
It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross. (http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=6158.msg82165#msg82165 date=1203057005]
The thing that satan hates is the fact that Christ's death meant we were saved from all punishment. To believe in purgatory is to believe we were saved from some punishment.
The punishment you refer to, in which Christ saved us from is the eternal punishment a.k.a. hell...the idea of purgatory still holds, because in the end you avoid the eternal seperation from God.
if we define the punishment your speaking of as temporal punishment, then we know for sure Christ's death was incomplete, because we are all punished/disciplined for things we do here on earth. If a father forgives his son of commiting a terrible act (stealing, lying, fighting, etc...), would he not punish him although he forgave him? Of course he wouldn't...the son would have to go through some degree of punishment (for example no video games for a week) although the father forgave him of his wrongdoing.
The same logic applies here, you can say we are temporally punished (in many different ways) for the sins we commit, and the doctrine of purgatory says (this is not the full doctrine, but just one partof it) that you will be temporally punished in purgatory for sins commited on earth (remember the father punishing the boy although he forgave him) ...Christ's death enabled the Father to even forgive us, it didn't strip his power of temporally punishing us. Hence temporal punishment does not make Christ's death useless.
GBU
Only The Lord is the Just Judge of humanity, who can possibly reach His Holy Wisdom?
very humbling :)...agreed
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82190#msg82190 date=1203109414]
I have Coptic Catholic relatives (by default they do follow the RCC). They are fully aware and assert that on countless occasions, earlier in history and still recently, the RCC had been promoting various payable price-tagged indulgences.
I never questioned the fact that the RCC abused indulgences (note, the selling of indulgences isn't necc. a bad thing, depends on the motive behind the person...and also note that the selling of indulgences is NOT and for stronger emphasis NOT used to remove sins..so for example you cannot assume your are free to commit X number of sins because you donated Y number of dollars to build a church that is absurd Not that you put forth that view, but others have I think somewhere along this thread)
...but does it make sense to say that because it was abused, indulgences are inherently evil? Of course not, it would be foolish to think so. Look around and you will see many good things poisoned by individuals with the wrong motives (the internet, TV, and even some of the church maarads that sell fake designer bags and clothes that are illegal...)
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82190#msg82190 date=1203109414]
They also assert that the Holy Baptism is not done as was once shown by Christ Himself. Their children are also denied full communion for many years till their pre-teen age. Is this their practice or not? For these reasons many leave the RC Church, some were lucky to revert to the COC. Fact is it's indeed their original Church some grandpa once decided to leave.
Not something I agree with, but I can see where people are coming from when they put forth this position...it has its pros and cons
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=6158.msg82190#msg82190 date=1203109414]
When they are asked to explain who is the Head of the Church they have drop jaws when they discover that the Real Head of the Church is Our Lord Jesus Christ - and NOT the RCC pontiff.
That is a hugeee generalisation...but also a cheap shot at the RCC and all of their followers. The deep level of respect they put forth to their Pope is nothing different than the way we treat H.H. Pope Shenouda. Have you never seen a church where H.H. walks down the middle of the church only to be grabbed and tugged continuously by all the people to the point where he needs to be escorted by security guards?? Go figure.
I think the hulabaluh that is carried by the Copts for their Father is cultural and we certainly, in our language and verbiage do not ascribe him demi-god status.
The RCC uses the term: Vicar of Christ, or Vicar of the Church. Gee, Vicar of the Church, is that demi-god or what. I think John_S2000 is on target with his comments.
If a father forgives his son then he does not (and certainly should not) punish him.
GBU
This is turning into a parenting issue lol...But when a kid does something wrong the father eventually forgives however it wouldn't be wise to forget the consequences, consequences must follow.
Heres the example of King David in the OT:
2 Samuel, chapter 12 (KJV)
13: And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
14: Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
Here David's sin was forgiven, however his consequences still followed.
I would not put the love and reverence for His Holiness Pope Shenouda III by the faithful of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the same realm as that for Pope Benedict XVI by the RCC faithful. It is not a generalization that there is a "demi-god" status accorded to the Roman Pontiff.
I think the hulabaluh that is carried by the Copts for their Father is cultural and we certainly, in our language and verbiage do not ascribe him demi-god status.
The RCC uses the term: Vicar of Christ, or Vicar of the Church. Gee, Vicar of the Church, is that demi-god or what. I think John_S2000 is on target with his comments.
haha, Are you kidding me?? Demi-God? sorry, but that was funny lol
No but seriously, all you really saying is that you are familiar with the anti-pope rhetoric found in many protestant circles. I guess we can make the same argument with the term His Holiness, because according to Rev 15:4
"4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. "
So by applying the same standard, we conclude that the term His Holiness is as "demi-God"'ish as "Vicar of Christ"...And atleast my comparison has scriptural backing (Just so nobody gets mad, this is not my view, just defending the "Vicar of Christ" phrase")
So in conclusion, both phrases are used to express honor and respect...
You go look at some protestant circles and you see the way they make a parody of the RCC. Misrepresenting them on a plethora of issues (saying they believe their pope is a demi-god) and concluding that the RCC church is a tyrant (the hor of bablyon in revelation ), ridiculing their followers and pope by saying he is the anti-christ and their followers are dimwits who don't think and observantly follow because they know no better.....The same disrespect (granted it isn't as vulgar) is right here on this thread
What this has to do with purgatory? You lost the debate and now, to back your claim, are trying to bring examples from the Holy Bible that does not apply to this situation!!! I understand that certain sins have severe consequences, while the person is still alive, even if the person committing them has repented and confessed his sins. If a person commits a murder God will forgive him if he sincerely repents and is penalized by the church and God will not send him to the purgatory, but he must be jailed or suffered the death penalty. Purgatory is, from the point of view of the Catholic Church is the punishment of a confessed and repented person after death to fire.
duck, .
What this has to do with purgatory? You lost the debate and now, to back your claim, are trying to bring examples from the Holy Bible that does not apply to this situation!!! I understand that certain sins have severe consequences, while the person is still alive, even if the person committing them has repented and confessed his sins. If a person commits a murder God will forgive him if he sincerely repents and is penalized by the church and God will not send him to the purgatory, but he must be jailed or suffered the death penalty. Purgatory is, from the point of view of the Catholic Church is the punishment of a confessed and repented person after death to fire.
You obviously have not read anything written and maybe have stumbled upon that quote, or maybe you did but failed to follow the chain of logic of what you were reading. Let me explain to you why it applies to the situation:
My argument rested on the assertion that sins don't go without punishment. Hence if a sin went without punishment on earth, it would have been taken up in purgatory. I related it a human father/son relationship. If the son does something wrong, the father gets angry but eventually forgives the son (assuming a loving father here of course)...However the father does not let the misdeed go without punishment. Its the same thing with God and to prove that I pointed out an example in the Bible.
I was not using that example to prove purgatory...I don't know how you got to that conclusion. I used the example to strengthen the initial assertion that all sins have consequences. The question it obviously doesn't address is whether you can pay the consequences after you die (hence purgatory), which again, is not something I was trying to prove using that example.
...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! ...
We know that salvation can only be attained in our Orthodox Church. What drives you to make the above statement?
[quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg82206#msg82206 date=1203117350]
...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! ...
We know that salvation can only be attained in our Orthodox Church. What drives you to make the above statement?
That is a sharp statement. Our God is a just God; just because a person is no longer part of the Orthodox Church does not mean they no longer have the opportunity of salvation. There are many Catholics and Protestant people who are far greater than many of us (Mother Theresa anyone?). What matters, truly, is the person's heart and faith. Would a nondevout Orthodox person be given preference over a highly devout Catholic, just based on their denomination?
The whole idea behind purgatory is that we are not good enough after we die to go to heaven because we have traces of sin on us, making us unworthy. It makes sense, but our church doesnt go off what makes sense. This idea of entering into heaven while imperfect can be applied to communion. Are we truly worthy to partake of communion. No we are not. The Priest says in the liturgy the Holies are for the Holy. Are we Holy? Again Christ says you must be perfect just as my Father in heaven is perfect. Are we perfect?
We are called to be worthy to paratke of Christ, holy, and Perfect in the same way that the Father is perfect. Such a person that is worthy, holy, and perfect would definetly enter paradise. However, I dont know anyone like that and i dont think you do either. We struggle to attain worthiness, holiness, and perfection, and only by struggling though Gods help can we be considered worthy, Holy, and perfect. In the same way the purity needed to enter paradise can only be attained through a life of repentance and struggle. No one is truly pure enough to enter into eternal existance with God; it is a grace of which we are unworthy. Only through repentance with God's help can we reach this purity. And unless you live a life of repentance, you can not go to heaven. If you do live this life you go to heaven.
You say that Saints are the people that will go straight to heaven because they are already purified. Then the people who arent at the level of saint but are good will need to make atonment in purgatory. The difference between a Saint and this seconde person is that the Saint falls into sin but gets back up. A Saint is NOT sinless, but is a person who has struggled more than most and lived a solid life of repentance. A saint on his own is not pure enough to enter heaven, but his struggle is what purifies him. This Same struggle is what we are called to.
As for purgatory, it seems like a second chance for those who have not lived a complete life of repentance, but only a partial one. And we all know what God says about people in the middle, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" Rev 3:16. There is not Purgatory for these people, only Heaven and Hell
But to get on the topic of which church is the correct church is to SIMPLY go back to the apostolic times and ask the question, which church has kept everything the apostles taught, and kept the same worship traditions, sacraments, and doctrine. The protestants know it, the catholics know, all denominations know that the ONLY church that kept these things is the Orthodox church, and its nearly impossible to argue that "the orthodox church changed a certain doctrine", it is not found anywhere in history where the orthodox church changed a doctrine simply because it does not exist. Historically speaking, every other denomination of christianity in the world has come up with their own ideas of doctrine because it may sound somewhat logical.. Just like satan tricked adam and eve by making his lie sound logical to them, so did satan trick many church leaders into knew and incorrect doctrine. For he is a liar John 8:44
But in the words of Paul himself.. 2 Corinthains 11:3-4 But I have a fear, that in some way, as Eve was tricked by the deceit of the snake, your minds may be turned away from their simple and holy love for Christ. 4 For if anyone comes preaching another Jesus from the one whose preachers we are, or if you have got a different spirit, or a different sort of good news from those which came to you, how well you put up with these things.
Please help me Lord and reveal the Truth, open my closed mind to understand. Amen.
[quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg82206#msg82206 date=1203117350]
...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! ...
We know that salvation can only be attained in our Orthodox Church. What drives you to make the above statement?
- I can defend the Purgatorial belief of the Church of Rome from a Biblical and Historical perspective, wouldn't be the first time. But this exclusion of the Roman Catholics in salvation is a new one for me. I've heard it from Protestant's before but their salvific system is faulty and can be argued into the ground on biblical terms. What reasoning do you have for thinking the Orthodox Church can only be saved, being a Roman Catholic I would say the same thing from my perspective.
Not that I know much detail on the topic, but after reading some of the catholic doctrine on purgatory...it kind of makes sense on some levels... let me explain
"The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). " (As defined on catholic.com....http://catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
I know we have all asked the question when we were younger to our parents or our sunday school teachers, "What happens if we don't confess a nanosecond before we die??" because we all know...
"The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven" (Rev. 21:27)
And the usual response (atleast to me) is that if we were truly repentant then God will accept there repentence although they are still guilty without the need of confession and communion.
Now the catholic dogma seems to solve this problem apparent problem, but takes it a few steps further in defining which sins let gives you hope in purgatory (venial and mortal)....howeever if we removed this boundary line of sins, do you think the dogma can hold?
Basically what I am saying is that, we die in sins for sure no matter what....And nothing can enter heaven unclean...see the gap that a dogma similar to purgatory (but not exact to the catholic version) can fill?
This is just a thought that has been running around in my brain for some time now....thoughts any1?
check out this article about purgatory from the website of the coptic southern diocese of the us: http://www.suscopts.org/literature/literature.php?subaction=showfull&id=1084916893&archive=&start_from=&ucat=3&;
[quote author=Severus link=topic=6158.msg82219#msg82219 date=1203134422]
[quote author=duck link=topic=6158.msg82206#msg82206 date=1203117350]
...People forget that the roman catholics and even some Protestant Denominations can attain salvation as well (no not just the orthodox church, refer to my joke earlier)! ...
We know that salvation can only be attained in our Orthodox Church. What drives you to make the above statement?
- I can defend the Purgatorial belief of the Church of Rome from a Biblical and Historical perspective, wouldn't be the first time. But this exclusion of the Roman Catholics in salvation is a new one for me. I've heard it from Protestant's before but their salvific system is faulty and can be argued into the ground on biblical terms. What reasoning do you have for thinking the Orthodox Church can only be saved, being a Roman Catholic I would say the same thing from my perspective.
It's not that RCs think they are the only ones who can go to heaven, but that they say they have the true faith and can get to heaven easier than others who dont have the true faith 100%. i've been told sarcastically by RCs who know that I am orthodox that "nobody's perfect"
We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
- I have not met a Christian that doesn't believe in Purgatory. Purgatory is sanctification. Like I said it's when it happens that is of relevance. When are we sanctified, is it a process or a declaration? Confession is not negated because of Purgatory, i'm a little confused on that one. You confess to your priest, are forgiven then do a pennetential act to wipe away your stain. If before your death, you are forgiven and do pennance you go to heaven. I agree all sin leads to death. Deadly sin being a concious choice against God. It's like saying alright I know if I do this it will offend God, I realize that I will be thus severing my ties with God but I am going to do it anyway's. This is deadly because it automatically is a monopoly ticket to hell, your choosing hell over God. A venial sin, is a bad habit, like cussing when you stub your toe, or taking the Lord's name in vain without even thinking about it. You weren't doing these on purpose it was almost a reaction, still venial leads to damnation if they are not repented of in a long run because they can lead to a sin dominant life. But you can go to heaven if you die without having venial sin forgiven. Thus deadly, and not deadly. Jesus Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, it's not stuck in the past to be remembered it's very real for each of us in all ages. That sacrifice allowed us to go to Heaven, where as we couldn't pre-Christ. Because of His death and ressurection we can go to Heaven, but it's a process in which Christ sanctifies us our whole lives. If we were not sanctified completly in this life, Christ completes this in the next, either way it's all Christ not us. When Christ forgave the thief during their crucifixion, He baptised the man in means of baptism by desire, and forgave all his sins, and cleansed him right then and there. Of course he didn't go to Purgatory, he was not only baptised, and forgiven but purified. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122]
We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
He did not enter Heaven, Heaven is still closed to us. He entered paradise not heaven,
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6158.msg82372#msg82372 date=1203383122]
We as copts don't believe we enter into heaven right away after we die, we believe that those worthy go to paradise and those unworthy go to hades(where all righteous and unrighteous went before christs death). You say you have yet to meet a christian who doesn't believe in purgatory, you came to a whole site of people who don't believe in it. If purgatory were to exist then that completely negates the sacrement of confession and us even trying to repent. We believe as i said in my other post that we don't believe in deadly and non-deadly sins. All sins lead to death. Habbitual sins are just sins we can't or haven't yet over come and does not make them less deadly to us. Christ Sacrifice on the cross does not need to be done through a different state where we are put through purgatory. On the cross he told the theif Today you will be with me in paradise, not latter on when you go through purgatory.
- I have not met a Christian that doesn't believe in Purgatory. Purgatory is sanctification. Like I said it's when it happens that is of relevance. When are we sanctified, is it a process or a declaration? Confession is not negated because of Purgatory, i'm a little confused on that one. You confess to your priest, are forgiven then do a pennetential act to wipe away your stain. If before your death, you are forgiven and do pennance you go to heaven. I agree all sin leads to death. Deadly sin being a concious choice against God. It's like saying alright I know if I do this it will offend God, I realize that I will be thus severing my ties with God but I am going to do it anyway's. This is deadly because it automatically is a monopoly ticket to hell, your choosing hell over God. A venial sin, is a bad habit, like cussing when you stub your toe, or taking the Lord's name in vain without even thinking about it. You weren't doing these on purpose it was almost a reaction, still venial leads to damnation if they are not repented of in a long run because they can lead to a sin dominant life. But you can go to heaven if you die without having venial sin forgiven. Thus deadly, and not deadly. Jesus Christ's sacrifice was once and for all, it's not stuck in the past to be remembered it's very real for each of us in all ages. That sacrifice allowed us to go to Heaven, where as we couldn't pre-Christ. Because of His death and ressurection we can go to Heaven, but it's a process in which Christ sanctifies us our whole lives. If we were not sanctified completly in this life, Christ completes this in the next, either way it's all Christ not us. When Christ forgave the thief during their crucifixion, He baptised the man in means of baptism by desire, and forgave all his sins, and cleansed him right then and there. Of course he didn't go to Purgatory, he was not only baptised, and forgiven but purified. There was no reason to go to Purgatory which is why Christ said he was going to Heaven that day. Purgatory is only for those who are not completly pure.
excerpt from article on purgatory on the coptic orthodox southern diocese website:
http://www.suscopts.org/literature/literature.php?subaction=showfull&id=1084916893&archive=&start_from=&ucat=3&;
"The Coptic Orthodox View on the Purgatory
<b>1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption</b>
Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is a place where "we atone for our sins" while atonement is the work of our Lord Jesus Christ alone. The Basis of the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption is that man is incapable of paying for the Divine Justice no matter how much he does, he suffers, or is punished.
The Holy Bible says,
"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Rom 3:24-25)
"If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 Jn 2:1-2)
"In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (1 Jn 4:10)
<b>2. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation</b>
Salvation is only by blood and only the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ is the only purge. "The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 Jn 1:7). 'All sin' refers to every kind of sin mentioned by the Catholics the mortal, the venial or any other. The only condition is repentance "confess our sins" "walk in the light" (1 Jn 1:7,9). St Paul says, "But with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb 9:12). Purgatory is an insult to the work of the Cross for we say that on the Cross appeared the Divine Love "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" (Jn 3:16) How would that love agree with the pain of purgatory for forgiven sins and unintentional sins?
To believe in the purgatory is to believe of a partial salvation as if Christ came to save us from the shame of sin not from its penalty.
<b>3. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance</b>
Repentance blots sin, God forgives it and does not remember it.
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. (Acts 3:19)
I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. (Isa 44:22)
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, nailed to the cross. (Col 2:13,14).
I, even I, am He Who blots out transgressions for My own sake and I will not remember your sins. (Isa 43:25).
<b>The Coptic Orthodox view on the Prayer for the Departed</b>
We pray for those who departed from this world not because we believe in the purgatory but following St. Paul who prayed for Onesiphorus saying, "The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day" (2 Tim 1:18). In that Day meant in the Day of Judgment, as he said "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." (2 Tim 4:8) St. Paul was not asking for mercy in the purgatory but on the Day of Judgment when he stands before the Just Judge. We pray for the departure that God may grant them rest in the place of waiting for the Day of Judgment has not come yet. Those departed are awaiting without worry or unrest. The litany for the departed does not mention the purgatory at all. We pray saying, "Sustain them in a green pasture, by the water of rest in the paradise of joy, the place out of which grief, sorrow and groaning have fled away" This is definitely not the description of the purgatory for the purgatory contrarily is a place of grief, sorrow and groaning.
Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer. She absolves her from all the sins she committed while in the flesh. We say to God, 'this soul has departed from us absolved by the church. We do not retain any sin for her … we intercede for her for You O Lord know the weakness of man."
1: an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification; specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God's grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven
2: a place or state of temporary suffering or misery
Do you believe that punishment or misery ensure Sanctification? Most probably you haven't met them all.
1 John 1:7
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
GBU