Hi,
What is the view of the Coptic Orthodox Church when it comes to the death of an unbaptised individual. Do they go to heaven or hell?
What about the death of:
a) A baptised person but in the mormon church or baptist church or any non-apostolic church
b) a muslim person who was always good all his life
c) the death of a coptic person who forgot to repent a few sins?
d) the death of a baptised orthodox person who was good all his life, but didnt believe in God ?
e) the death of an orthodox christian who believed, but didnt do much good works but at least repented for all the bad works he's done??
What happens to each of the above cases?? Where does each person go after death??
Also, in each above case, what happens to the soul and spirit. Where does each one go??
Thanks,
Comments
i only know abt one case,
is when somebody died before they get babtisied!
i had an older sister, but she passed away when she was a baby before she got babtisied, and my parents couldn't babitis her cuz she wasn't yet 80 days old, and she died. so baba we mama were wondering if she went to hell or heaven, and they asked abona and he told them.......... she will be in heaven but she won't see anything! like she is blind in heaven she won't see christ or any of the saints!
bentBABAyasooa3
I am saying NO ONE...not even an abouna ya Bentbabayaso3
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36
I know you are not asking about the "day" like it's indicating in this verse, but imagine something as small as the date the second coming will be on is not known to even the Son, do you think WHO goes to heaven and who doesn't will be known to us sinners.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
So we don't know that ? I think it seems to be hell if God tried to convert him maybe by sermons or a good example or some other way..but he was stubborn or something and he would (?) not believe.. but im not sure.. maybe I should be sure..
does not a person have to believe in the Son to have eternal life? I think maybe I should be sure..
"the death of a coptic person who forgot to repent a few sins?"
forgot to repent or forgot to go confess to get absolution?
would God take someones life without that person having a chance to repent of his/her sins?
MAYBE I SAID SOME UNTRUE STUFF
Ill let others answer the same one or ones again and the other ones
does not a person have to believe in the Son to have eternal life?
'I am the resurrection and life. he who believes in me, though he may die, he shall live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die' John 11:25-26
And also, let's say if someone forgets to confess?? What happens?
well the thief on the cross with Jesus wasnt baptised i dont think
people who have not been baptised still have the possibility of going to heaven
someone forgets to confess?? What happens?
its important to confess and be honest with God but there prob wont be a consequence if you dont confess with your confession father
i dont think people forget to confess, they tend to avoid it
If someone is not baptised, do they go to heaven or not??
well the thief on the cross with Jesus wasnt baptised i dont think
people who have not been baptised still have the possibility of going to heaven
someone forgets to confess?? What happens?
its important to confess and be honest with God but there prob wont be a consequence if you dont confess with your confession father
i dont think people forget to confess, they tend to avoid it
Hello,
Actually, you are totally wrong about the thief on the cross. He was in fact baptised. And according to the Pope, we should all desire the baptism that he had.
Is not baptism dying and resurrecting with Christ?
Well, he surely died, and surely resurrected WITH Christ. That constitutes a baptism!
But what about those that were not baptised and have not heard the good news?
What happens??
As for confession, I just want to give u an example:
I went to my FoC and told him i'd like to confess. He said , sure, but i don't have much time. I said : Well... ok.. do u want the bad news first, or the really really bad news?? He said :"Give me the worst thing you've done first".
So, i told him the worst thing i've done first that was weighing a lot in my heart. THen before I could mention the minor misdemeanours, he had to rush off and do a wedding. So, because my sins are so many, i'll probably forget the small ones.
Let's say now that I die tomorrow. I didnt confess the small sins. I tried... but i didnt get a chance. Do i still go to heaven??
well thankx for the correction monsieur
yes baptism is to be born again with Christ
Well, he surely died, and surely resurrected WITH Christ. That constitutes a baptism!
good point
but i want you to think about the actual sacrament of baptism, where people are immersed in water as John the Baptist did.
not all church's perform baptism the way we do such as the protestant's is that lil sprinking of water considered baptism?
yes i agree its important to be baptised, its like one of the ingredients for going to heaven but not a guarantee if you dont live your life to the Lord
I tried. You heard the story. If i'm going down, im taking the priest with me!
If i'm going down, im taking the priest with me!
lol good luck
And when I confess, i do tend to make it interesting for the listener, so i planned what to say - and then before i knew it, my my time was up. He wasnt taking anymore interviews.
I had some major stuff to confess, and trust me, i wasnt talking about what i get up to on tasbeha.org...
So, what happens then if i get killed tomorrow, and i havent repented or confessed for my sins??
the Lord knows you had the intention to confess and repent
I think its about God looking at your overall performance.
Sure, the sins are bad, but then look at what i had to endure in life? (and im still not talking about tasbeha.org)
if you truly regret your actions and sincerely want to confess and repent, the Lord will know
and yes, God will not judge your entry into heaven based on your last confession but how you have lived your WHOLE life
God loves you and wants you there with him
It sounds great. I've always tried to confess all my sins. I don't blame abouna for stopping early.. my confessions take ages and ages... i felt sorry him even.
I need a priest who can handle me. I love the men in black, but i need someone who's got the time, the energy and will power to lead me on the right path.
He doesnt have to be violent, but i don't need a priest who makes me feel good about myself. Most of them do that. I want someone who tells me :" Look son, you're not ashamed enough of your sins...are you?!"
about which part?
He doesnt have to be violent
i would hope and pray he isnt
" Look son, you're not ashamed enough of your sins...are you?!"
how is abouna to know whether your genuine or not?? thats within you and between you and God
You are joking - right? How is abouna meant to know whether or not i'm genuine or not about my confession?? Believe me, Coptic priests are itching, and rightly so, to NOT give u the absolution if they feel u are not sincere - or if u really mean it.
They have to!! They can't just give u an absolution if they feel that u don't mean a word of it... u just want to be absolved but you don't care. I give credit where credit is due, and catholic priests are just the same. Honestly. They would NEVER give you absolution if they feel u do not mean it.
I felt so ashamed in front of abouna the last time, but i didnt feel that depressed about my sins. In fact, i didnt feel depressed at all, and i think he nearly avoided giving me the absolution. I told him that i think in a few weeks time, the reality of my actions would hit me, but for the time being, im 110% sure that what i've done is wrong, and i need to confess about it.
The good thing though is this: He didnt judge me. I mean.. he could have ; but he was honestly interested to know if i truely intended to do the same sin again.
FROM
The Life of Repentance
and Purity
BY
His Holiness Pope Shenouda III
FROM
http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/Repentan/index.html
"
With repentance you are worthy of forgiveness,
and with Confession and Holy Communion you receive it.
There is a difference between worthiness of forgiveness and
receiving grace. For repentance also contains within it,
Confession. The Absolution is a part of the sacrament of
repentance. Holy Communion is an extension of the
effectiveness of the sacrifice of Christ. He says: `If I repent and
die before the reading of the Absolution, what will happen to
me' ? If you die in this way, God will have mercy upon you.
The Absolution will be read on you during the funeral prayers."
Ill repeat an important part...
"He says: `If I repent and
die before the reading of the Absolution, what will happen to
me' ? If you die in this way, God will have mercy upon you.
The Absolution will be read on you during the funeral prayers."
I think its about God looking at your overall performance.
Are you sure that God judges you on our overall performance?? Plus He takes into consideration what you've been through?
these are both your works, first u give me ur opinion, then you question me when i say it. can u see something wrong there??
I said: "I think God takes into consideration your overall performance". Then i asked if you were sure if my opinion was correct that God does in fact take into account your overall performance.
OK Catch-me , look, tell me this:
Have u ever heard a Coptic priest saying that people have lost going to heaven because of a few silly mistakes like forgetting to return library books. Who can blame that guy for asking if it's wrong to cross the street when the lights are red?? I don't. As a coptic, our priests were teaching us that smallest mistake could jeapordise our chances from us going to heaven!
I remmeber even, during the sermon in the Pascha week (passion week), one priest said :"You are all sinners!! " And he kept on saying it. And then he started shouting at everyone. Then he said something like.. "U don't deserve anything!".
So, of course, given that he was my FoC, can u see how we turned out??
I agree with an earlier post that we cannot pretend to know the Mind of God.... that is to say, there are so many areas that can be called "gray areas" that we can only speculate about... in the end, we really dont know... we can go by the beliefs of the church, our customs, traditions, etc, but in the end, it is all up to God as to if we are allowed through the gates or not. I think the example of the thief on the cross is perfect... it is unlikely that he was living a pure life to that point and was crucified for a one time incident o theft... however we know that he believed in the divinity of Christ and asked for His Remebrance. In the end, we are all terrible sinners, and there is so much that we miss/forget to do, etc. so I think it's all up to God and the measure of His Grace that he metes out to us on an individual basis. One important thing to realize though is that God knows evvvverrrythingggg, so if u happen to forget to confess something He would know that u actually forgot. It's up to Him from there..
let us all hope that God is grading on a curve
God Bless all
We ARE all sinners Vas, there is no hope for us without God's mercy but I think that we need to be reminded of this every so often as your FOC did. I think one of the greatest tricks of the devil is instilling complacency in our hearts, or that feeling of "i'm not doing so bad". We need to continuously be aware of our sin and need for forgiveness. It is equally important to realize though that if we truly repent of our sins, and confess them, we ARE forgiven.
I remmeber even, during the sermon in the Pascha week (passion week), one priest said :"You are all sinners!! " And he kept on saying it. And then he started shouting at everyone. Then he said something like.. "U don't deserve anything!".
We ARE all sinners Vas, there is no hope for us without God's mercy but I think that we need to be reminded of this every so often as your FOC did. I think one of the greatest tricks of the devil is instilling complacency in our hearts, or that feeling of "i'm not doing so bad". We need to continuously be aware of our sin and need for forgiveness. It is equally important to realize though that if we truly repent of our sins, and confess them, we ARE forgiven.
Yeah , OK, but let no one complain then if someone starts asking questions like :"Is it ok to cross the street if the green walking man light doesnt come on, and there are no cars" - or "I stepped over an ant in the park, and he's dead - am i murderer?"
Its a bit extreme isnt it?
no i havent, priests have no place in deciding who goes to heaven or not, that is known by God only
Who can blame that guy for asking if it's wrong to cross the street when the lights are red?? I don't. As a coptic, our priests were teaching us that smallest mistake could jeapordise our chances from us going to heaven!
its more important to realise what you have done wrong and to learn from them rather than to dwell on our sins. there is no such thing as a silly question or common sense.
why do you think priests would say that the smallest mistakes can jeapordise our chances for entry into heaven??
One time a Christian man ( ofcourse he was babtisied and got some holy oil on him) converted to Islam. After he passed away, ofcourse they put him in a muslim cemetary, and ofcourse his soul is going to Hell. So St. mary appeared in the cemetary by that man that was christian, and she took him out and put him a tube that was full of HOT BOILING water to make the holy oil come out, and it did and she collected it.
The bottom line of the true story is " The Holy oil that we get annointed with when we are babtisied/get married/ sick, The oil that St. mark gave to the Pope, DOES NOT BELONG IN HELL"
This is a true story!
Pray for me,
All of you guys have every good interesting comments made here which taught me alot, but I'm not sure why we are talking about death of muslims, or non-baptized, or non-orthodox, etc... Only think about your own life. Remember that the wise virgins didn't give the oil to the foolish ones! Only strive to become one of the wise virgins...
With that said, I have a true story to share with all of you, some one I know was possessed in the early 90s which caused the relatives to ask an abouna from el katadra`ya to come and pray that she may be saved. Abouna asked that they bring to church so he can pray for her. After screaming and yelling, they finally got her to church so Abouna ask the relative to leave him or her alone. After some time, Abouna came out and said that the devil is in full control of her and he will have to see her at a later time. After that the relatives took her home, and few days later, she got very sick (bee el sokar) and they took her to the hospital. Few days later, she passed away.
When I thought about this, and I talked to my brother, I said she for sure went to hell, but my brother said "We don't know, we were not with her when she died". He is true, may be the devil left her when she got very sick, she repented, and passed away in peace... or not. The fact is we don't know!!!
May be this story is an extreme case, but after that I said to myself, I don't know and I don't want to know until I see God... There I will know.
Don't think about others, and where they will end. Yes we know that God said no one will come to the Father except by the Son. But we don't know if a muslim person will believe at the end of his/her life or not. Leave it to God. If you think you are obligated to tell them about God, baptizim, etc... Ask for the help of God, and He will guide you.
Pray for me.