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Do angels have free will ?

kokiiekokiie
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
hey guys,
i know this might sound random and insignificant but i really need an answer lol.
well i go to the coptic school in Sydney, Australia ( St Marks Coptic Orthodox College) and we just recently did our half yearly exams.. In our Coptic Orthodox Studies exam we had an article on angels that stated that angels dont have free will and that they have no choice but to follow what God tells them to do..
Following the exam there was a lot of argument over whether angels have free will because of the fact that Satan himself used to be an angel and then 'chose' not to follow God.
If anyone knows something please help.. thankyuu :D
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Comments

  • mazzamazza
    i honestly do not think anyone is capable of answering this question- simply because how would they know the answer?
  • Unknown
    Ofcourse Angels have free will, and the example of Satan is a perfect example of that.
  • kokiiekokiie
    there was a reference in the exam from the Bible that said angels didn't have free will.. I'm not sure where my exam is at the moment but I'll get back to you as soon as i find it.
  • Unknown
    Thats the problem with this Church. It keeps borrowing material from the outside, thinking that as long as its "Christian" then it's all good.

    Your Coptic school is wrong. Find the reference, and I will give you the Orthodox interpretation of the verse in question.
  • whywhy
    i hate to break your bubble iqbal...but..our EXAM was revised by the priest of our skool... 8)

    and while we were having our discussion /debate on this topic...THE PRIEST was debating that angels DONOT have free will...what do u say about that??
  • Unknown
    Has your priest heard of Orthodox Patristic tradition? Ask your priest to find me one Church Father who denied the free will of Angels. Has your Priest read the Bible? Ask him to explain Jude's account of the Angels who voluntarily renounced their positions in heaven to procreate with the daughters of men. Has your priest heard of Pope Shenouda? You know, the Patriarch of Alexandria and the See of St Mark? Because if he reads His Holiness' book on Angels, he will find that even His Holiness affirms this basic fact.

    So sorry to burst your bubble why, but we are dealing with an ignorant priest here; he is wrong. Period.

    P.S. Would you mind PM'ing this priests name. Thanks.
  • Unknown
    I have heard something along the lines of, although angels have free will they are no longer able to rebell (just like the fallen angels have become so frozen in sin that they are unable to repent).

    I can't really explain it - You know anything about this Iqbal?

    Maybe that's what your priest mean?
  • whywhy
    WOW>...lol ;D ;D

    u burst my bubble :-[

    but wait..ill try to find ma exam...n ill want an explanation!! daroori..lol...

    wow ..ur pretty good at the whole bible thing i must say!! ::)
  • kokiiekokiie
    umm.. dont you think thats a bit disrespectful? a priest is a figure chosen by God to serve His people. You shouldn't speak about him that way.
    but thats besides the point. i'll try my best to find the exam too.
  • Unknown
    Orthodox11,

    I have heard something along the lines of, although angels have free will they are no longer able to rebell

    I've never heard of this. Do you know of any specific primary/secondary source discussing this?

  • Unknown
    [quote author=Iqbal link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=0#msg54939 date=1147954144]
    Orthodox11,

    I've never heard of this. Do you know of any specific primary/secondary source discussing this?


    I'm sorry I don't. It's just something I remember hearing - not sure where - might be a load of rubbish.

    I'll see if I can find out.

    God bless
  • whywhy
    to tell the truth ..the priest said this..

    ' angels have limited free will' lol this might sound akward...but first the angel chooses to be an angel or not.. and then once he was chosen to be a angel..he doesnt have free will after that....

    so he called it LIMITED FREE WILL
  • Unknown
    [quote author=why link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=0#msg54941 date=1147954311]
    to tell the truth ..the priest said this..

    'but first the angel chooses to be an angel or not


    I've never heard of this. An angel is an angel, just like a man is a man. God never asked me if I'd rather be born a racoon.

    Or do you mean the angel choses to carry out the will of God or not (in which case he would fall and become a demon)?
  • whywhy
    nope god gives them the option to be an angel or not...and once they have chosen...they cannot have fre will after that...i dunno..that is what the priest said.. :-[
  • Unknown
    Orthodox11,

    I think I may know what you're vaguely referring to. Some people take the term "free" or "voluntary" in the sense of qualifying an act or decision that is "fully informed". Some of the early Fathers in attempting to explain why Satan and his demons would choose to leave the glory of God, explained that the Angels during that period had not experienced the full glory and beauty of heaven, and hence they did not truly know what it is they were choosing to abandon, and in this sense their decision was not technically "free". I guess the implication therefore is that Angels who have now experienced that beatitude are informed to the extent that their will is naturally inclined towards heaven and submission to God.

    The above obviously serves no justification to the idea that Angels do not have free will however, it simply seeks to answer an objection regarding the implausibility of the idea of Angels leaving the glory of heaven for darkness and corruption, by arguing that the actions and decisions of those particular Angels at that particular stage of "cosmic history" were prompted by ignorance and hence a will that was free in the sense that it was voluntary but restricted in the sense that its voluntary direction was misguided due to ignorance.
  • Unknown
    why,

    nope god gives them the option to be an angel or not...and once they have chosen...they cannot have fre will after that...i dunno..that is what the priest said..

    This is nonsense. No one chooses to be an angel; angels are a specific ontological species determined and created by God. No hypostasis chooses its ontological status; that's absurd.

    I will talk to this abouna.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Iqbal link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg54944 date=1147954841]
    Orthodox11,

    I think I may know what you're vaguely referring to. Some people take the term "free" or "voluntary" in the sense of qualifying an act or decision that is "fully informed". Some of the early Fathers in attempting to explain why Satan and his demons would choose to leave the glory of God, explained that the Angels during that period had not experienced the full glory and beauty of heaven, and hence they did not truly know what it is they were choosing to abandon, and in this sense their decision was not technically "free". I guess the implication therefore is that Angels who have now experienced that beatitude are informed to the extent that their will is naturally inclined towards heaven and submission to God.

    The above obviously serves no justification to the idea that Angels do not have free will however, it simply seeks to answer an objection regarding the implausibility of the idea of Angels leaving the glory of heaven for darkness and corruption, by arguing that the actions and decisions of those particular Angels at that particular stage of "cosmic history" were prompted by ignorance and hence a will that was free in the sense that it was voluntary but restricted in the sense that its voluntary direction was misguided due to ignorance.



    Thank you. This sounds more or less like what I was thinking of. But you are right, it does not negate the idea of angels having free will.
  • whywhy
    [quote author=Iqbal link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg54945 date=1147954942]
    why,

    nope god gives them the option to be an angel or not...and once they have chosen...they cannot have fre will after that...i dunno..that is what the priest said..

    This is nonsense. No one chooses to be an angel; angels are a specific ontological species determined and created by God. No hypostasis chooses its ontological status; that's absurd.

    I will talk to this abouna.


    okaiie iqbal..ur the man...

    lol call me marina..
  • kokiiekokiie
    lol.. question answeredd :D
  • mazzamazza
    ok no priest bashing geeeeez---- some respect ppl
  • kokiiekokiie
    http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_free_will_of_angels.htm

    goo theree
  • Unknown
    mazza,

    Observing facts is not "bashing". Clergy ignorance is a problem that every Church deals with. It's a fact.

    What I do regret however is judging the knowledge of this priest upon the basis of how others have represented his position, without considering the very likely fact that they simply misunderstood him. I'm hoping they can clarify the issue by typing out the exact nature of the question they were asked and the material that they were supplied with in relation to this issue.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg55005 date=1148031612]
    http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_free_will_of_angels.htm

    goo theree



    You do realise that your weblink supports the position I have argued, right?
  • Luke90Luke90

    Some of the early Fathers in attempting to explain why Satan and his demons would choose to leave the glory of God, explained that the Angels during that period had not experienced the full glory and beauty of heaven, and hence they did not truly know what it is they were choosing to abandon, and in this sense their decision was not technically "free". I guess the implication therefore is that Angels who have now experienced that beatitude are informed to the extent that their will is naturally inclined towards heaven and submission to God.

    I understand what you're saying, but the thing that gets me is how the angels "had not experienced the full glory and beauty of heaven."

    If they were indeed in Heaven, then isn't the glory, and the holiness apparent, seeing as it is the Heavenly Jerusalem; or did God choose not to reveal the glory to His angels as to test their faith; or is it that satan was blinded by his own pride and his innate desire for power (as were his angels) and so they were unable to behold the holiness of their surroundings due only to their all encompassing hubris?

    I don't know, any info about this would be greatly appreciated, and also Iqbal, if it wouldn't be too much of a burden, can you mention the name(s) of the early Church Father(s) who said this.

    Thanks very much. +
  • kokiiekokiie
    [quote author=Iqbal link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg55120 date=1148097406]
    [quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg55005 date=1148031612]
    http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_free_will_of_angels.htm

    goo theree



    You do realise that your weblink supports the position I have argued, right?


    i wasn't dissagreeing with what you were saying because I thought it ws wrong. I was simply trying to find the right answer and to do that I have to take on a number of different perspectives, not just yours. Thanks for all your help.
  • whywhy
    [quote author=Iqbal link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg55119 date=1148097359]
    mazza,

    Observing facts is not "bashing". Clergy ignorance is a problem that every Church deals with. It's a fact.

    What I do regret however is judging the knowledge of this priest upon the basis of how others have represented his position, without considering the very likely fact that they simply misunderstood him. I'm hoping they can clarify the issue by typing out the exact nature of the question they were asked and the material that they were supplied with in relation to this issue.


    iqabal...i dont understand what u mean...


    this is what happened..we had a text in which we had to answer a few questions on...
    and in one of the questions...there was aquestion..do angels have free will...and according to the article..it was no!!

    anyways..there was this guy who wrote yes..becasue he knew angels had free will..and there was a debate about it at skool...and that where the priest came in and told the class...in a 10 min talk that ANGELS DO NOT HAVE free will and that ..it is LIMITED free will..they first choose whether they want to be angels or not..and then once becomeing angels..DONOT have free will....
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Luke90 link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg55121 date=1148103434]
    I understand what you're saying, but the thing that gets me is how the angels "had not experienced the full glory and beauty of heaven."

    If they were indeed in Heaven, then isn't the glory, and the holiness apparent, seeing as it is the Heavenly Jerusalem; or did God choose not to reveal the glory to His angels as to test their faith

    Yes, God was giving them a "trial" so to speak. It was all according to His will.

    can you mention the name(s) of the early Church Father(s) who said this

    St Ignatios of Antioch and St Clement of Alexandria.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=Hizz_chiilld link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg55128 date=1148120883]
    i wasn't dissagreeing with what you were saying because I thought it ws wrong. I was simply trying to find the right answer and to do that I have to take on a number of different perspectives, not just yours. Thanks for all your help.

    My perspective is not a personal or subjective perspective. It is the objective Orthodox perspective. Period. I have not heard of one Church Father denying or even limiting the free will of Angels.

    Furthermore, though your weblink happens to coincidently support Orthodoxy on this matter, in the end it is not an Orthodox source. This goes back to the problem I referred to in my initial post - that oftentimes clergy and laity alike unwittingly promote or advocate ideas and principles inherent in a particular article or book, simply because it is "Christian", without being critical of the source. The article that was in your exam was probably an example of this.
  • Unknown
    [quote author=why link=board=4;threadid=3906;start=15#msg55132 date=1148130883]
    anyways..there was this guy who wrote yes..becasue he knew angels had free will..and there was a debate about it at skool...and that where the priest came in and told the class...in a 10 min talk that ANGELS DO NOT HAVE free will and that ..it is LIMITED free will..they first choose whether they want to be angels or not..and then once becomeing angels..DONOT have free will....

    Well guess what, they do. All Angels have been endowed with reson, intellect and free will. As I explained to Orthodox11, at the very beggining of cosmic history, Angels underwent a trial period; the fullness of the glory of heaven was not fully disclosed to them, hence those who freely chose to reject God (i.e. Satan and Co.) did not know what they were truly abandoning; nonetheless their actions were voluntary. Now that the fullness of the glory of heaven, and the fullness of the beatitude one may experience in heaven, are revealed, it wouldn't make sense for an Angel to freely abandon heaven. Nonetheless if they so decided, nothing would stop them; they have the free will to do so.

    In fact, there is another incident in the Bible regarding the voluntary fall of Angels that is separate from the initial fall of Satan and his followers. This regards the account in Genesis 6, where Angels are said to have fallen from heaven and lusted with daughters of men. St Jude testifies to this in his epistle.
  • mtanious32mtanious32
    Actually, we all know that the angels are messengers of God, so whatever God tells them to do, they must do it...angels do not have free will, I learned this in Sunday School, and tonight i will ask my Priests
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