What I mean is if I still aim to perform lustful sex...even if I am about to confess about it....then I'd better not and change paths...and try my best to go to HIM in the end...
About marriage...first of all...a father confessor is NOT a prosecutor, ok? His job isn't to grill you into thinking you're wrong and u're horrible...it's just that he gently guides you as a father...
I do NOT think a father confessor to a girl would think of soemthing like that...he would think, by God's grace, of how to save this girl's eternity from immediate failure...(or the boy's of course). Then he (the FOC) will let these matters (marriage) come in their own good time.
I wish I first could really stop looking under my feet and fix my eyes on HIM.....
hi athansious my friend, your question is never being awkward if you got the right and the true informations you seeking, and as you know as coptic we are always shy about such a topic due to the life of perfection we leave and our bounders in what we belive in, but living in the west make your mind think twice of what you see and what ather people do? ??? :-[ :-\. with what you belive and tought in the church and through our bible. The answser to your awkward question is very very easy and streat forward. but i need from you a little bit of understanding of what you are going to read. Since god created the world he put rules to every thing, other wise if no rules it will be a chayotic life. for ex. if you break the driving speed you get a fine, but does not mean you can not speed. if you eat too much fat you endanger your health but this does't mean you can't eat fat. when god created adam and eve the rule was not to eat from this tree, or :( and that didn't made them not to eat. because we have been created free and god loves us. before the sin adam did not know eve (sexually) because he was created on god immege, but after the sin he lost that, and new his wife, and that is for one reason is to have children and family. and when god created our organs he don that for a purpose, and the purpose of sex is to get children, but the rule as our bible teach and our coptic church teach is to be through the marriage which is one of the seven holly sacrement of our church. that is why the marriage has a (tagges) holy cermoney. and that is because we are the sons of god. and we belive in him. BUT IF WE DO NOT BELIVE IN GOD or think he is existing, then we don't have a rule in our life and their is nothing rule us and our behaviours or what we do, their will be no difference between us as human being and the animals. having sexual realation before marriage is a sin and you can confess to the priest about it. but to the people who having sex in their life and before marriage, let me asking you ARE SEX FOR PLEASURE OR MAKING FAMILY? Can you control your self of having sex until you get married? Are you strong as a coptic to stay honest and clean to your god? as our monks do? it is very easy not to be pure and not to have a rule in your life. and it is hard to defend your belive if you are empty of what your church belive :( people who do not have god in their life, and they do not belive in him and they are empty from inside, they can live the way they want and no body will tell him what is wrong and what is wirte, but at the end of the day the price of the sin is death if you live very senseble you live longer and happier but if you copy cat unbeliving people you will be responsible for the consequese, and it is very good to ask and very good to know. but it will be very very good if you belive. god be with you antonious.
Sorry mazag10, but you are talking to the wrong person. Coptic21 is the one who asked the question. I guess mazag10 is another exception cuz he didn't have BIBLICAL answers.
this is something that was discussed in our church many times and something that stuck was this, perhaps this will answer WHY to u coptic21
the marriage is between you (the individual) and God.
when you meet someone, you are joined as one in the sacrament of marriage, therefore "you are no longer two, but one flesh"
The Holy Spirit has made something that is two into one.
If we as humans commit this sin we are breaking the marriage between you and God
when i use the word marriage i refer to it as "an agreement".
God has agreed to give you eternal life IF you follow His commandments.
When we are married we are no longer two, and when there is sex outside of marriage, once again you are violating that "agreement" or marriage between you and God
that is the same thing with Joseph and Photifar's wife
with regards to confession, a sin is a sin, and confession is part of the solution.
you broke an agreement with God and you must make it up with Him, as with a friend.
Do not fear what your FOC will say, pretend he isnt there and trust me, he will not judge, he will love you (As stated earlier) as a father and the prodigal son.
Ok, if you are married and had sex out of marriage you broke the agreement or let me call it the unity with your partener. Because as mentioned before marriage unit two spirits in one flesh.
The thread's question was about sex before marriage, wasn't it?
I read a book about sex and Christianity that I bought from El-Mahabba bookstore and it was great book.
The book stated that God did not create sex as a goal or target. Sex is a tool to reinforce the holly unity of marriage. Therefore, if no marriage, no need for sex.
In other words, we all agree that marriage is a holly unity of two spirits in one body. Note that there is no unity in spirit, it is just unity in flesh, because your spirit is united to the holly spirit. So, sex was a tool to strength the flesh unity and was blessed by God to married (united) couples. Finally, if you are not married, the purpose of sex disappears and become a sin or absolute lusty desire in the eyes of the Lord.
And if you think about it, sex is nothing more than physical interaction or physical unity.
Summary:
Marriage is unity of 2 parteners. Sex is not just a desire for pleasure that was created to be under your disposal. Sex is to strengthen the unity of marriage. Therefore, no marriage, no purpose for sex.
Conclusion:
Marriage comes first then sex not vice versa. Thus, you can't have sex with someone even if you are 100% sure that will get married, you can't even have sex a minute before the Church wedding ceremony because you are not united yet.
wow i like what u said aswell ...the philosiphical treat thingy mabob.....yer i havent heard of haleem man but i know bishop moussa is very good with writing book...
by any chance would there be a link with this book on the net...if that possible ???
[quote author=why link=board=10;threadid=2735;start=30#msg42668 date=1132221915] by any chance would there be a link with this book on the net...if that possible ???
I tried but I did not find a link to El-Mahabba bookstore not to mention a link to the book. I don't think it was Dr. Abdel Haleem, because I remeber it was a lady.
[quote author=AthanasiusTheApostolic link=topic=2735.msg42282#msg42282 date=1131550823] The other day I told my Coptic class mate that I lost my biochemistry binder and all my notes. "I will pray for you," he replied. :o What? "How about copying your notes," I thought. "Well, I appreciate that brother and I will pray for you to cuz I think you got a major problem," I said back. I understand and I believe that praying is sooooooooo powerfull but his answer was retarded.
Although what he said may not be disrespectful, the thought he is trying to portray to us is correct. I am not sure if this is a Bible verse or just a saying but either way it says, "the Lord is the One who guards the city, but you must close the gates". This means that yes you must pray that the Lord guards the city because He is the one ultimately does it not the fact that we closed the gates, BUT you must also close the gates - you must do your part. This is also presented to us in many stories from the Bible, like when the Lord put mud on the blind man's eyes he told him to go wash; and when he raised lazarus from the dead he told the people to roll the stone. This is NOT because God can't do it, but because He wants us to do our part and He will do his part.
Just to add on to what you guys are sayin about premarital sex, even if they've been together for a while or whatever, they are still considered brother and sister. This is what Anba Paula (the one responsible for marriage problems in the Orhodox church) said, he also said even when they are engaged, they are still considered brother and sister. This means they both have a responsibility to remain pure. The guy needs to protect the girl, not only from other men, but also from himself. If he TRULY loves her, he will take care of her and will not try to touch her in any disrespectful way. Even if he wants to (and temptations do happen) he should be careful to pray about it and not do it. Also the girl should not let him touch her (if they are engaged just hold hands or a very quick brief hug) and they should both tell their parents, especially the girl, if anything beyond that (ie kissing) happens. Because once the girl gives the guy access to her body, that's it. Not only will he not respect her that much anymore, but it will just keep happening. And as you all know, one thing leads to another...
One more thing, this problem doesn't end in marriage. Even married couples have to be pure. It's not all about sex and sex should not be abused by married people. Therefore, either way sex is something holy that should be respected because it is a gift from God. Knowing that, it's worth it to wait until marriage anyway.
I was just wondering if it is allowed to have sex before marriage given the couple are going to get married any way why not give communion to people who are not Orthodox given that they will be baptized in the future? Just doesn’t work. You get baptized then you can have communion. Same thing, you get married then you can have sex, period. ;)
[quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=2735.msg107587#msg107587 date=1257626385] I was just wondering if it is allowed to have sex before marriage given the couple are going to get married any way why not give communion to people who are not Orthodox given that they will be baptized in the future? Just doesn’t work. You get baptized then you can have communion. Same thing, you get married then you can have sex, period. ;)
it is wrong, because you are never sure that you will marry that person, even if you are engaged and about to get married next day. you never know, because god forbid, a crazy drunk high on smoking weed and loose-leaf paper may break into her house that night and kill her. or she could die some other way. no more wedding. you slept with someone you didn't marry. sin. case closed.
Comments
What I mean is if I still aim to perform lustful sex...even if I am about to confess about it....then I'd better not and change paths...and try my best to go to HIM in the end...
About marriage...first of all...a father confessor is NOT a prosecutor, ok? His job isn't to grill you into thinking you're wrong and u're horrible...it's just that he gently guides you as a father...
I do NOT think a father confessor to a girl would think of soemthing like that...he would think, by God's grace, of how to save this girl's eternity from immediate failure...(or the boy's of course). Then he (the FOC) will let these matters (marriage) come in their own good time.
I wish I first could really stop looking under my feet and fix my eyes on HIM.....
In HIS Name,
RFZ
that's what I meant in that pararaph in my last post...
In HIS Name,
RFZ
God Bless U!!!
Coptic21
But we're not a substitute for an FOC...:D
God bless you...
In HIS Name,
RFZ
hi athansious my friend, your question is never being awkward if you got the right and the true informations you seeking, and as you know as coptic we are always shy about such a topic due to the life of perfection we leave and our bounders in what we belive in, but living in the west make your mind think twice of what you see and what ather people do? ??? :-[ :-\. with what you belive and tought in the church and through our bible. The answser to your awkward question is very very easy and streat forward. but i need from you a little bit of understanding of what you are going to read. Since god created the world he put rules to every thing, other wise if no rules it will be a chayotic life. for ex. if you break the driving speed you get a fine, but does not mean you can not speed. if you eat too much fat you endanger your health but this does't mean you can't eat fat. when god created adam and eve the rule was not to eat from this tree, or :( and that didn't made them not to eat. because we have been created free and god loves us. before the sin adam did not know eve (sexually) because he was created on god immege, but after the sin he lost that, and new his wife, and that is for one reason is to have children and family. and when god created our organs he don that for a purpose, and the purpose of sex is to get children, but the rule as our bible teach and our coptic church teach is to be through the marriage which is one of the seven holly sacrement of our church. that is why the marriage has a (tagges) holy cermoney. and that is because we are the sons of god. and we belive in him. BUT IF WE DO NOT BELIVE IN GOD or think he is existing, then we don't have a rule in our life and their is nothing rule us and our behaviours or what we do, their will be no difference between us as human being and the animals. having sexual realation before marriage is a sin and you can confess to the priest about it. but to the people who having sex in their life and before marriage, let me asking you ARE SEX FOR PLEASURE OR MAKING FAMILY? Can you control your self of having sex until you get married? Are you strong as a coptic to stay honest and clean to your god? as our monks do? it is very easy not to be pure and not to have a rule in your life. and it is hard to defend your belive if you are empty of what your church belive :( people who do not have god in their life, and they do not belive in him and they are empty from inside, they can live the way they want and no body will tell him what is wrong and what is wirte, but at the end of the day the price of the sin is death if you live very senseble you live longer and happier but if you copy cat unbeliving people you will be responsible for the consequese, and it is very good to ask and very good to know. but it will be very very good if you belive. god be with you antonious.
and something that stuck was this,
perhaps this will answer WHY to u coptic21
the marriage is between you (the individual) and God.
when you meet someone, you are joined as one in the sacrament of marriage, therefore "you are no longer two, but one flesh"
The Holy Spirit has made something that is two into one.
If we as humans commit this sin we are breaking the marriage between you and God
when i use the word marriage i refer to it as "an agreement".
God has agreed to give you eternal life IF you follow His commandments.
When we are married we are no longer two, and when there is sex outside of marriage, once again you are violating that "agreement" or marriage between you and God
that is the same thing with Joseph and Photifar's wife
with regards to confession, a sin is a sin, and confession is part of the solution.
you broke an agreement with God and you must make it up with Him, as with a friend.
Do not fear what your FOC will say, pretend he isnt there and trust me, he will not judge, he will love you (As stated earlier) as a father and the prodigal son.
not sure if this confused you or enlightened you
Coptic21
The thread's question was about sex before marriage, wasn't it?
I read a book about sex and Christianity that I bought from El-Mahabba bookstore and it was great book.
The book stated that God did not create sex as a goal or target. Sex is a tool to reinforce the holly unity of marriage. Therefore, if no marriage, no need for sex.
In other words, we all agree that marriage is a holly unity of two spirits in one body. Note that there is no unity in spirit, it is just unity in flesh, because your spirit is united to the holly spirit. So, sex was a tool to strength the flesh unity and was blessed by God to married (united) couples. Finally, if you are not married, the purpose of sex disappears and become a sin or absolute lusty desire in the eyes of the Lord.
And if you think about it, sex is nothing more than physical interaction or physical unity.
Summary:
Marriage is unity of 2 parteners. Sex is not just a desire for pleasure that was created to be under your disposal. Sex is to strengthen the unity of marriage. Therefore, no marriage, no purpose for sex.
Conclusion:
Marriage comes first then sex not vice versa. Thus, you can't have sex with someone even if you are 100% sure that will get married, you can't even have sex a minute before the Church wedding ceremony because you are not united yet.
i was just wondering...who wrote the book u read...he is very good at explainig btw!!!!
wow once again!!!!! :o
Also...Bishop Moussa talks about this issue...with the same result
Let us pray that these words, and all words, bring us closer to HIM and not be just a philosophical treat...
In HIS Name,
RFZ
by any chance would there be a link with this book on the net...if that possible ???
by any chance would there be a link with this book on the net...if that possible ???
I tried but I did not find a link to El-Mahabba bookstore not to mention a link to the book. I don't think it was Dr. Abdel Haleem, because I remeber it was a lady.
In HIS Name,
RFZ
N.B.: Adel Haleem may have written a book about the same subject
;D
The other day I told my Coptic class mate that I lost my biochemistry binder and all my notes. "I will pray for you," he replied. :o What? "How about copying your notes," I thought. "Well, I appreciate that brother and I will pray for you to cuz I think you got a major problem," I said back. I understand and I believe that praying is sooooooooo powerfull but his answer was retarded.
One more thing, this problem doesn't end in marriage. Even married couples have to be pure. It's not all about sex and sex should not be abused by married people. Therefore, either way sex is something holy that should be respected because it is a gift from God. Knowing that, it's worth it to wait until marriage anyway.
In Christ
Theophilus
I was just wondering if it is allowed to have sex before marriage given the couple are going to get married any way why not give communion to people who are not Orthodox given that they will be baptized in the future? Just doesn’t work. You get baptized then you can have communion. Same thing, you get married then you can have sex, period. ;)
In Christ
Theophilus
Nicely said Theophilus!
god bless,
chris