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Ⲟⲛⲧⲱⲥ Greek Text

CopticBoy101
in Hymns Discussion

Agape,

Blessed Apostles Fast to all!

Does anyone have the Greek words for Ontwc (first verse, obviously haha) written with standard Greek orthography and accent marks...etc.

Comments

  • minasafwat
    Unfortunately, the text that we use now is a corrupted one.
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    @minasafwat ? What do you mean?
  • minasafwat
    edited June 2020
    The text is full of mistakes, we can not reach the old correct understandable one, also the translation we use is fabricated.
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    What is the proof of this though? What’s your source, if you don’t mind me asking..?
  • minasafwat
    You have the text,
    And you have the greek dictionaries and grammar books,
    Do some work to learn,

    Just search for the word (efthonikon) written in the first verse as a start for your search.
  • RamezM
    This is correct. φθονικόν would be translated "envious", which clearly does not seem to be the intention of the text. 

    It is possible the text initially read: Ὄντως ἀληθῶς γὰρ έξῆλθεν πάσῃ τῇ γῇ ὁ φθόγγος τῶν τοῦ θεοῦ ἀποστόλων. "Truly indeed the voice of the apostles of God went out to all the earth." (cf. Psalm 18:4).
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear @minasafwat,
    Please note that we do not speak Greek. Greek loan words in the Coptic language do not necessarily mean the same as in Greek, get pronounced the same, or even follow the same grammar as I am sure you know. In fact even modern Greek is so different from the old Greek to the extent that any Greek person would say that they don't even understand parts of their own liturgy.
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • RamezM
    @ophadece 

    There is nothing here about loanwords. We are not dealing in the first verse with a Coptic text that has some words of possible Greek origin, but with a sentence that is clearly Greek but has no easily identifiable meaning. Hence, what. I suggest above as a possible reconstruction. 

    And certainly not. Greek in Egypt, while occasionally displaying some minor regionalisms, is by and large standard Byzantine Greek in the broad sense of grammar and basic language features. I work with Greek texts from Egypt all the time and it does not usually require any specialized tools to read and understand, provided the text is not "corrupted."
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear @RamezM,
    Thank you very much for this fantastic passage.. It makes sense to me now. I guess that's a proof of the authenticity of old Bohairic ό φθόγγος to ⲫⲑⲟⲛⲓⲕⲟⲛ as the ⲕ used to be swapped with ⲅ and the insertion of the iota sound is pretty much due to the inherent breaks between consonants..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear @RamezM,
    Sorry it seems that I am sending at the same time you are sending too. I noticed your previous message and it makes sense to me. I take your point about Greek texts in the church but the point I had made earlier with regards Greek people and their liturgy I was told by Greek people themselves, so I have no more information than what I had already said..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • RamezM
    You are correct that Modern Greek and Byzantine Greek are significantly different. I know both and they are different enough to often require translation between them. 

    As for Old Bohairic, the changes you are describing from φθόγγος to ⲫⲑⲟⲛⲓⲕⲟⲛ are just common phonetic and scribal occurrences. K and G are very close in sound and the insertion of a vowel is also common, particularly if a text is transmitted orally by non-fluent Greek speakers. I am not saying "old Bohairic" is not proven, but that keeping in mind broader phonology and linguistic culture should refocus attention beyond the narrow discussion of Coptic pronunciation.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Thanks @RamezM,
    I believe that we are both in agreement on the phonological aspect mentioned which as you rightly assert is the case in other language systems. My point is especially relating to the rigid fixed rules of Greco-Bohairic without trying to open the debate on this versus that.
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • CopticBoy101
    @ophadece, I'm pro-OB, so say all you've got haha
  • ophadeceophadece
    Thanks @CopticBoy101 I really don't think this thread is the right one to do that and more importantly it is probably better that everyone finds out for themselves what is authentic and what is not in order to avoid arguing, debating, quarrelling and worst of all swearing at each other. I have been involved in quite a few of the latter as you can tell but not here on tasbeha.org. When there is a point to make I am sure you would say it even before I think about it..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    please no....
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    edited June 2020
    LoL, I won't give my detailed opinion - but I have to say I'm with @Ophadece on this one :)
    I don't ever recall not having the same opinion as Him, hahaha!  :))
  • minasafwat
    @RamezM
    I am astonished with your reading for the first verse!
    It's really a remarkable work..
    I am happy to know you more.. If you do not mind.. Tell me and i will post you my whats app number.
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