Hi guys. I am Coptic Catholic and our denomination is quite small. As such we do not have many resources, and so I often have to look at Orthodox resources to learn more about the Coptic rite, in particular the liturgy according to different times of the year and their unique hymns, psalmodies and ways in which they should be sung.
And so, I was wondering, whether there are any liturgical differences between our two churches, so that I can deem whether or not I am able to acknowledge Orthodox resources as the correct way of doing things within my church. As far as I know, our churches are very similar despite our slight differences in belief (such as the filoque clause) and the attire of abouna (the hat).
I know that most of you will probably know hardly anything about this subject but I hope that if anyone knows even something small, they can share it. Thanks.
Comments
These things are not so “small”, and we may look the same but we are not the same.
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
The first to use it was Pope Dionysius, in His letter about His predecessor (Pope Heraclas, 13th Patriarch) to a Priest.
In Greek, “πάππας“, in English, Pope.
The title of the leader of the See of Saint Mark is: "Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria", so They are two words describing the same Person (adjectives).
You cannot seperate the two words, and say that they are different, the same way “Presbyter” and “Priest” are two titles for the same person.
Pope Dyonisius was the 14th Patriarch, so the letter was written after 248 AD.
-If you guys take on all of our Traditions and Rites, then should you not acknowledge Him as Pope???
-For that matter, Are you considered a Catholic church or an Orthodox Church?
-Who exactly preached your Church?
*(Pope is an Alexandrian term, and Pope/Patriarch are ONE rank)*
The word pope is not Coptic..
Dear @copt333,
I agree with @George27 that the Coptic Orthodox Church has not split off. Secondly, he makes a very good point that you had fended off by saying that the rites are not exclusive to the Coptic Orthodox Church. Yes they are actually..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
I guess as a matter of transparency. I also think that the Coptic Orthodox church owns Coptic Traditions. Similarly, I think the Eastern Orthodox Church owns the Eastern Orthodox traditions.
I apologise for my bias, but it really seems like the Catholic Church has a well-tried playbook for cultural appropriation from the pagan statues in Rome to the Navajo Jesus icon (https://images.app.goo.gl/8kvsd92i1FN9QcAx6).
I apologise also because I've just been saying that we should be welcoming to visitors who sincerely want to learn, but this is not what I meant.
When did Coptic Catholicism come to place?
Who EXACTLY preached this mix of a church?
What year did it come to place?
You see, if you ask these questions to any Coptic Orthodox Child, they will answer you immediately without hesitating. For someone from your Church, they would have to do lots of research first....
So I don’t really know where you’re going with this?
You’re not in communion with us, and you’re in communion with the Catholic Church.
That means you belong to the Catholic Church, unless you will turn out to be Syriac or something ;)))
Why don't you answer the questions then? Of course I belong to the Catholic Church, I never doubted that...
Also, how can a Catholic come and imply Copts that they separated, do not own Coptic rites, and that they have their mindsets wrong on many things?
The World does not revolve around your point of view. I am in an Institute of Coptic Studies four year program through the Diocese of New York and New England.( I am a distance, so I take courses online..sadly not in English, but thank God for the Mothers at my church who give me everything in English) I just took an exam for Comparative Theology.
I had to know everything about all Seven Ecumenical Councils. Yes, all seven, not just four. Part of the exam was about the Council of Chalcedon, obviously. The Abouna taught we were part of the first large schism in the church and split from Rome. This is an actual teaching in our church that WE did separate from Roman and Byzantine churches and were isolated after being persecuted by Chalcedonian Christians.
That is precisely why your ancestors allowed the Ottoman Empire to slowly take over and Arab-ize your country within a few hundred years. Copts were cut off and isolated. For someone who is as knowledgeable as you, you can easily respond to your own questions.
Copt333 has a different view than you do. Trashing him and making yourself feel superior because you believe you're more ethically valid is extremely narrowminded for a person of your intellect.
You are obviously aware of how Eastern Catholic churches came to be, and all of the political aspects. You're painting Coptic Orthodox people as inclusive and ignorant. How do you expect to have a fruitful discussion with someone if you already tell them their wrong?
Have a little understanding and prospective that Oriental Orthodoxy isn't exactly the largest, most influential and only historically important denomination of Christianity. The Catholic church is far more diverse and has a ton of history throughout the world. When you see it from that viewpoint, we did cut off from them. And in regards to size, influence and history, Rome was battling since the Nicea to be the epicenter politically and culturally of Christianity.
All Catholics are weird like that.
Coptic is merely an ethnicity folks. Orthodoxy was greatly influenced by nationalism of the late 18th and 19th century. A, "Copt" from 500 years ago would have no idea how you would identify so strictly with your ethnicity.
Coptic is a very broad term and it's translation literally means, "Egyptian." You all know that. Egyptians aren't just blood lines from Egypt. There were millions of Greeks, Romans, Berbers, Jews, Arabs, Turks, and who knows who else, lived in Egypt for centuries.
These different ethnicities intermingled for millennia and all influenced each other's culture. You do not own any hymn, Liturgical structure, Holy Sacrament or ethnicity. And as smart as so many of you are, pick up a book, Google something and always have different sources to come to an educated and logical conclusion. You're all being extremely ignorant and selfish. Everything that our church teaches us to not be.
I understand the human element of why this occurs. People have not had access to knowledge and history as we do today. But most of us should, especially since all of us are speaking English. And please, all of you should never say a Rite, Hymn or anything that is merely intended follow the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, or to praise Our Lord, the Holy Theotokos, and the Saints, as something that denotes ownership.
First of all I hope your account is not hacked as this is the first time I see you posting comments with an aggressive undertone. I know exactly what you mean but the wording seems rather out of keeping with how I view you (of course that could be my own fault anyway). Secondly, I believe that I may have used the wrong term of "ownership" but as you rightly said when a church modifies rites along the generations and keeps chopping and changing with another partly at least following this, then one is the original tradition and one is a subset of her. Please also note that the meaning of Coptic hymns (I am referring to the Coptic Orthodox Church hymns) has different connotations to the Catholic counterparts, etc..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Thank you for your kind response. No, my account was not hacked. I just allowed my emotions to get the best of me. My frustration was based on the assumption that Rome split from Alexandria, yet Alexandria did not split from Rome.
We were merely one of five Holy Sees, which were sadly, "replaced" by Byzantine and Roman Patriarchs over the centuries. Obviously, I do not agree with the validity of Chalcedonian or Roman Patriarchs controlling Alexandria, but to say Rome and Greece split from us is not fully true.
There were attempts to reconnect Alexandria with the rest of the churches for four hundred years after Chalcedon, so to make it seem like it was one-sided is rather ignorant. Those posting on here know well enough what Eastern Catholicism is, and how it was mostly political in how it was created.
@George27 said he believes we, "own" the traditions. That is what I was referring to in regards to ownership. I do understand the hymns are different and have different context, dogma and theology. I just cannot believe someone would think we could own such things as hymns, sacraments or rites!
I am grateful that you think so highly of me, but I just could not take more of what I have been seeing. The more I learn from my studies in the church, the more I see the errors of what parishioners and even some Deacons teach our youth. I guess it's like the words of Beatle George Harrison who wrote in his song, "It's All Too Much": "The more I learn the less I know."
Thank you for holding me in such high regard. I am human, and I am not without my shortcomings.
Thank you for your response. It is certainly a wake up call for me and I need to read more into that subject. Everything above is too well educated for me..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
Saint Mark OUR first Pope preached us 2000 years ago, establishing the COC.
Why do you insist on saying that we are more recent compared to you? When in fact we are the OLDEST Church in the entire world???
In a church such as yours who did keep with traditions, it is more understandable for you to feel that way. But, it is true that the Coptic Catholic church was the result of Roman Catholic missionary work from the 18th century in Egypt. I am sure many Catholic clergy felt their denomination was superior in 18th century Italy, they were either unaware or did not think highly of Orthodoxy in Egypt and went to Egypt to convert people. They ended up converting a Bishop .You are not the original church of St. Mark, but I can completely understand if that's what you have been taught.