I am tired of this. This is not right. Look at the news.
Everyday people are dying.
Everyday people lose their homes.
Everyday we are discriminated.
And in the end?
We say:
"May god forgive them. They know not what they do."
"God will get us our right."
Do you know what I just saw? I watch Arabic T.V., and this Coptic lady came on the "Wael Ibrashi" show, and she was explaining how her daughter died in church. The muslims shot her in the chest, in the stomach, and the mom and dad were shot in both legs.
Well, they called the police and no one came, so the girl (her name is Mariam) was taken to the hospital on a motorcycle. Oh, and you expect that she got the needed treatment, right? No. She didn't.
And the Mom's on T.V. saying that she forgave the people who killed her daughter, and who brought 4 bullets in one leg, and 2 bullets in the other. She said that she doesn't want her right for her daughter's death on earth because she's confident that God will get her right.
Our churches are burned.
Our homes are taken away from us.
Our families are dying in front of our eyes.
Even the police in Egypt can't do anything for us. So if a Christian has a problem in Egypt, they call the police and the police will be like "We can't do anything about it. We have more important issues to take care of"
More importantly, what can we do?
It's not only Christians, it's also Muslims that are dying. There are innocent people that are dying. And no one can do nothing about it. There is nothing to do and all of these people are mourning. And 50% of the people are living in poverty. And there is no clean water. There is no proper medical treatments. There is no police. There is no business.
What are we going to do? Are we just going to watch? Maybe the people in Egypt can't do anything, but the people abroad can.
Someone please explain?
[edited out of disgust of my own attitude, please forgive me for complaining/sounding so harsh.]
Comments
Pray
Ray
I am glad that someone finally posted something about this topic because I feel like it's something that we all should be talking about. Be assured that you are not alone in your feelings and that there are plenty of people out there who are asking the same questions. Please allow me to explain what's happening here. I will first explain what is going on in the world that is leading to this advanced form of persecution. Then I will explain why the Coptic community has been so silent. Then I will discuss some possible things that may be done. I will conclude by explaining the obstacles to achieving those solutions.
What is going on? It is shamefully regretful that we see all around us priests and bishops doing their best to obtain degrees and advanced studies in psychology, thinking that they can help us solve our problems, instead of the more appropriate and useful field, history. History is the map of human civilization. Studying psychology in order to understand human behavior is the equivalent of using your GPS to give you directions to a location. You'll get there eventually, but you'll have no idea how and you won't learn anything. By contrast, studying history is like memorizing a map, henceforth not needing a GPS. So what does history tell us about the current situation? Right now the entire world is going through an economic crisis. We've all heard this on the news. What does this mean? It's actually an American economic crisis and I won't bore you with the details but here's the big issue: since the US dollar is the world's reserve currency, every country is affected by this crisis. When we say the dollar is the world's reserve currency, what does that mean? It means that any other currency must be able to be converted into dollars. Furthermore, any other currency must be valued in dollars. This means that for example 1 Egyptian pound = 0.15 US dollars. Is an Egyptian pound worth anything else? No, it's value is completely tied to the dollar. If the value of the dollar goes up, the value of the pound goes up. Right now, because of the economic crisis, the dollar is decreasing in value, which means the pound is also decreasing in value. Actually, the dollar has been decreasing in value ever since 9/11 when the US started the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Notice how those wars are still going on. War always hurts the economy because the state has to spend more money on the war effort, which means it has to raise taxes or go into debt by borrowing money (the US has done the latter) which strains the rest of the economy. How did this affect Egypt? Remember back in 2006 when there was a bread shortage in Egypt? Remember back in 2009 how they killed all the pigs because they were afraid of swine flu? Egypt has no more economy. They have no food, no jobs, no money. Everyone is becoming extremely poor. The one thing they did have, tourism, has been destroyed by the events of the Arab Spring. So the vast majority of the people in Egypt are sitting on their behinds with no job, no money, no future. What do you think they're going to do? Are they going to just sit there and wait until they starve to death?
Here is where history comes in. The current circumstances mirror exactly what happened during the Great Depression. Countries all over Europe were poor because of the stock market crash of 1929. This led to the rise of extremism: Nazism in Germany, Fascism in Italy, Communism in Russia and China. Extremism happens when people have nothing left to live for. If they have no job, no income, no source of food, no safety, and no hope for the forseeable future, they go crazy. They find one group of people and take all their anger out on them. This is exactly what happened with the Jews in Nazi Germany. It's exactly what's happening in Egypt now. It's even happening in the US. Did you read the stories of people dying on Black Friday? Why do Americans feel compelled to kill other people just to get a TV? It's the same reason why Muslims feel compelled to go to a Church and shoot people. Do the Muslims gain anything by shooting Christians? Of course not, it just allows them to vent their anger at the fact that they have no future themselves. This is also why the police are ineffective. Do you think the police care about you when they have little to no income? They are not even trained as police officers. They just get a couple of guys, put on them a uniform, and call them police. But they are not getting paid enough to motivate them to care. They worry more about protecting their own lives.
Why so silent? If everything explained above was news to you, guess what? You're not alone. The vast majority of people don't understand the role that economics plays in these conflicts. So they explain it away by saying that "Satan is unchained." Nevertheless, let's take a trip down logic lane and see what our options are. Right now the Copts have two choices: fight back or do nothing.
Fight Back
Let's say we fight back. This means that we have to use violence. When someone comes shooting our Church, we shoot back. When someone tries to invade a Coptic home, the Copts defend their homes. This means that the Copts have to start carrying firearms. It means that we have to become violent. This would violate one of the central principles of Christianity, nonviolence. The 5th commandment explicitly forbids us from killing. If we do take up arms and fight back, then we will make ourselves out to be hypocrites. Not only that, but we will validate the biggest accusation of the Muslims. One of the things that Muslims always do to divide Christians and Muslims is to accuse Christians of wanting to create their own separate state and wanting to kill all the Muslims. They routinely justify burning churches by claiming that we are hiding weapons in the churches. Imagine how it would look if we started actually carrying weapons in our churches. If we take this route, then we would have to own it completely. There would be no turning back. It would be the same as Caesar crossing the Rubicon, a point of no return. Our relationship with the Muslims would never be the same. Right now, there are radical Muslims and nonradical Muslims. The radical Muslims are against us. The nonradical Muslims are on the sidelines and don't care. If we start fighting back, we could potentially polarize the nonradical Muslims to be against us. It's not necessarily so, but there is that risk. A risk that the Church leaders are not willing to take.
Do nothing
This has been the strategy of the Church throughout the 20th and 21st centuries. We all know how it's worked out so far. Needless to say, when the Copts make the decision to ignore their church leaders and are unable to tolerate it any longer, this strategy will be abadoned.
What can we do
Once again, we turn to history to find the answers. We know that the current wave of persecutions is due to a world wide international conflict that is beyond our control. History tells us that these conflicts always end with a major power change. Right now, the Copts have an opportunity to make things better for themselves. But they have to be more assertive. Part of the Do Nothing strategy has been to not be assertive with our rights when dealing with the government. The pope has been very strong in this area. Bishop Paul has threatened to leave the committee tasked with drafting the Constitution because there are some who want the basis of all laws to be the Islamic Shariah. This is an example of not going along and not letting ourselves be pushed over. Great. However, this is a long term strategy. So what can we do to stop them burning churches and killing people? The most important thing that can be done here is for Copts to get organized. Right now, the main goal is to persevere because we have no control over what's going on in the rest of the world. We have to ride this out until its over and we have to make sure that we don't get the short end when all is said and done.
What's stopping us
Before we can do anything about our situation, something important must happen first. The Copts, both laity and clergy, must make a conscious decision to want to make things better. As I said earlier, most people are willing to just say that it's Satan's fault and that there's nothing they can do about it. They need to realize that there is something to do about it and they need to want to do something. It will be tough. It will be dangerous. It may not even work. But we have to take the leap of faith and try. Until Copts are willing to do that, nothing will change. This is where those of us in the lands of immigration come in. We have to try our best to educate people (both Copts and Westerners) about what's going on. We also have to try to strengthen our clergy. Our clergy really don't want to take that step because they are worried about the human cost of fighting back. Furthermore, as clergy, they don't care very much for politics. Politics is a necessary evil of being independent. Nobody can escape it. We need to do more to educate our clergy and show them that we are willing to defend ourselves. That's why I said that the strategy of Do Nothing will soon be abandoned. When the clergy sees the people fighting back on their own, they will take courage.
I know this is a long post but there is a lot going on here. It will be difficult to create any kind of change in attitude without understanding these points. Let me know if you would like me to explain anything in more detail.
The answer to why we do nothing and why I pray to god daily that we NEVER do anything... Is because the victory is God's. There is no such thing as politics being a "necessary evil of being independent."
Good Lord if the martyrs on whom our church thrives were to use politics, I wonder where our church would go!
Archdeacon, what you are calling for here is a political revolt against clergy for the sake of political reasons.
Your whole post is a plea to a political move. You analyse every aspect of the political sphere, negelecting "the Lord shall fight for you and you shall hold your peace."
My question: What seperates us Christians if we do what you say from atheists? What you are effectively calling for is for us to "take matters into our own hands" and yet call Jesus' name as we do it. what you are effectively endorsing is a form of atheism. It is lack of trust in God, and it has no place in the church. It has been in effect much longer. We are the church of the martyrs. I guess we do all know how its worked so far! It has preserved the faith. Do nothing seemed to be Christ's method too in front of pilot. Do you have a problem with the outcome there? Faith?! Are you kidding me? Where in your entire post do you speak of prayer as a means to a solution? Where do you speak of the salvation of Christ? Yes, you are indeed asking for a leap of faith away from Christ. You are asking for politics to save you! I believe Richard Dawkins approves of this sort of faith. Yes I have a question. Where does the theology of Christ's death come into play here?
Ray
I am tired of this. This is not right. LOOK AT THE NEWS.
EVERYDAY people are dying.
EVERYDAY people lose their homes.
EVERYDAY we are discriminated.
AND IN THE END?
We say:
"May god forgive them. They know not what they do."
"God will get us our right."
Do you know what I just saw? I watch Arabic T.V., and this Coptic lady came on the "Wael Ibrashi" show, and she was explaining how her daughter died in church. The muslims shot her in the chest, in the stomach, and the mom and dad were shot in both legs.
Well, they called the police and no one came, so the girl (her name is Mariam) was taken to the hospital on a motorcycle. ON A MOTORCYCLE. Oh, and you expect that she got the needed treatment, right? NO. She didn't. Why? SHE's CHRISTIAN.
And the Mom's on T.V. saying that she forgave the people who killed her daughter, and who brought 4 bullets in one leg, and 2 bullets in the other. She said that she doesn't want her right for her daughter's death on earth because she's confident that God will get her right.
Our churches are burned.
Our homes are taken away from us.
Our families are dying in front of our eyes.
Even the police in Egypt can't do anything for us. So if a Christian has a problem in Egypt, they call the police and the police will be like "We can't do anything about it. We have more important issues to take care of"
SERIOUSLY?
Why are we discriminated like this? More importantly, what can we do?
It's not only Christians, it's also Muslims that are dying. There are innocent people that are dying. And no one can do nothing about it. There is nothing to do and all of these people are mourning. And 50% of the people are living in poverty. And there is no clean water. There is no proper medical treatments. There is no police. There is no business.
What are we going to do? Are we just going to watch? Maybe the people in Egypt can't do anything, but the people abroad can.
Someone please explain?
I would recommend you read the books, or see the videos of Nick Vujicic. He was a man that was born without Limbs. He also asked the question : "Why Lord" - and did feel a bit bitter about his life.
He explains how everything that happens is for the Glory of God.
I know how you feel, life is unfair, but we are not here living to die and accumulate wealth whilst we're here. We have a purpose.
I recommend you see the video.
And with regard to politics, just let me say this. I look at the rest of the world and I see countries like Armenia or Russia or the Phillipines. These are countries that are majority Christian. They are not just majority Christian, they are overwhelming majority Christian, like over 90% Christian. These countries have armies, political parties, members of parliamen/congress, presidents, and politicians. Are these people heretics for being Christian and practicing politics? Why should they be allowed to engage in politics and us not? Furthermore, are these countries rotting to the core or suffering from atheism because they allow politics to play a role in their lives? Certainly not. So why should Egypt be any different? There's this perception among a lot of people, not just Copts, that politcs is icky and dirty and should be avoided at all costs. This is because people don't understand it, which leads to the following paradox: politics is dirty because all politicians are dirty and therefore, good people stay away; but if good people stay away from politics, then the only people left are the bad ones. That's why in order to make sure that politics doesn't become dirty, good people need to be completely involved in politics in order to keep bad people out. There have been plenty of examples throughout history of Copts being involved in politics and doing lots of good for their community. Again, I never advocated for any political philosophy. I was explaining the politics behind the situation. Explaining politics is not the same as advocating. The martyrs of our church did use politics. They refused to capitulate. They understood full well that the people who wanted them to leave their faith did so, not because they believed our faith was wrong, but because they were threatened by people believing in something so strongly. The martyrs understood that if they were willing to die for their cause, more people would be inspired. That's what martyrdom means, witnessing. That's why the martyrs traveled to Alexandria and Ansena themselves specifically to testify before the governors and all the people that they were Christian. They knew that they would bring more people into the faith by going on the offense rather than just sitting there doing nothing. But that's not what we are facing right now. We are not facing a crisis of people wanting to kill us for our faith. As I explained in my previous post, we are facing a crisis of people who are very angry and upset with their lives, taking out their anger and frustration on us because we are different then they are and its easy to blame us for their problems. I never called for any type of revolt or movement. I explicitly said that violence is not the answer because it violates the fundamentals of Christianity. I also said that before anything happens, there must be a conscious decision, meaning a fundamental change in attitude, made by all Copts, not just me or you or a small group of people, but by all. I also said that the Coptic Community is not ready to make that decision and your post clearly demonstrates that. You are perfectly fine with the status quo. God will fight for you. All will be well. I assume CopticStrength doesn't agree. Otherwise, why would he start this thread? Atheists have nothing to do with this. Just because we care about our living standards doesn't make us atheists. Again, are the people in Armenia or Russia atheists because they have armies that are willing to defend their land? I never called on us to take matters into our own hands. As stated previously, I said that all Copts must join in together. Change will not come about on the will of a few people. Nobody is taking matters into their own hands. Your accusation of atheism implies that it is your fundamental belief that as Christians we must be persecuted and that if we are not persecuted we are not true Christians. Does that mean that I or you or CopticStrength or anybody living in the lands of immigration are not true Christians because we are not being persecuted? The theology of Christ's death has to do with our salvation from eternal damnation and from sin. Just because we want to live in peace doesn't mean we aren't saved. Are you or I condemned because we aren't martyred? Surely not. Not everyone was cut out to be a martyr. If you want to be martyred, go live in Egypt. But to say that by wanting to have a better standard of living violates our salvation is ludicrous. Christianity does not mandate that we be martyrs or that we live in abject poverty or in an unsafe environment. The Bible says that it will happen and we should be ready for it. But that doesn't mean that it has to be the case all the time.
Second, I'm sorry for creating this topic. I regret it because it caused accusations, placed the blame on things I had no intention of bringing up, and it brought up a lot of irrelevancies. I don't care about the economic, political, and historical reasons of this issue. Its too much of an extensive topic, and it will only cause trouble to continue in it.
I just want all the egyptians to be safe, and I got angered at the fact that people are dying everyday for stupid reasons. I just wanted to know what can we do to stop this, and the answer is prayer and reliance on god, and I am *content* with that answer. It's the best solution, and now I understand why the lady was humble. It's a form of strength. God is the only one who could help us at this time. I pray that I would be like her.
[quote author=Archdeacon link=topic=14737.msg166613#msg166613 date=1385954201] Apparently not for CopticStrength. If you read CopticStrength's opening post, it's very clear that he is struggling with the thought of attributing everything that's happening to, as you put it, "the cross of Christ."
I believe CopticStrength viewed it differently. I don't think he appreciated the woman's humility, but rather was frustrated at her unwillingness to express anger which is the natural human emotion when something like that happens. He clearly wasn't satisfied with the usual explanation and demanded an alternative. We will never really know if I answered CopticStrength's questions until he replies.
I assume CopticStrength doesn't agree. Otherwise, why would he start this thread?
Please Archdeacon, don't make assumptions about me. Really, it's not necessary. You answered the questions, thank you. But judgements? Not needed.
ReturnOrthodoxy,
I now know why you put that picture, and it reminded me of the price He paid for us to be saved. I was also reminded of the saints and their persecutions; the impact they made over the centuries for their persistence in the faith. The lady who's daughter died also reminded me of that.
Zoxasi,
I will watch the video (I think I watched it before, I'm not sure).
(Just a side question...why did you change your name?)
Thanks
I hope you are now comforted with the thread. I'm glad you created this thread. I just wanted to add a few comments.
[quote author=CopticStrength link=topic=14737.msg166614#msg166614 date=1385994600]
I just want all the egyptians to be safe,
When did God ever promise his children will be "safe"? I take the word "safe" as you used in this context to mean "free from suffering". In this meaning, God never promised we would be free from suffering. Psalm 90, 91 specifically say God will be with us in our trouble, not exempt us from suffering. They are not dying for stupid reasons. They are dying in the promise that they will receive eternal joy. "The Church offers the blood of the martyrs as a gift to God as Christ offered the Church as a blameless bride (Rev 19:7)" (I don't remember who said that). It is by the blood of these new martyrs that God strengthens His church. There is no way. There will always be tyranny, poverty, misery, and suffering on earth. It will only stop in the New Jerusalem in Revelations 22, when heaven and earth pass away. I think you meant you are content with that answer. If you were in contempt with that answer, then you still find it inadequate. I hope it is not the latter. And I too would like to be like her. I assume because the proper Greek pronunciation of the Greek letter delta is almost always "th" (like "the") not "z" and modified his user name to reflect it.
You are absolutely right about the suffering. I gotta start reading the agpeya again! You helped clear things up for me :)
But...
Let's say a person did not repent before dying, but still died in the name of christ / was martyred. Would that excuse him from his lack of repentance or is each person/situation different?
Let's say a person did not repent before dying, but still died in the name of christ / was martyred. Would that excuse him from his lack of repentance or is each person/situation different?
I don;t necessarily have an answer but wouldnt the very act of martyrdom be a repentance and confession? Repentance is to turn away from old oaths in a motion toward Christ. So wouldn't renouncing your whole life for Christ be repentance. As for confession, a martyr confesses his faith and that is why he is killed. So I thing that martyrdom is in itself a repentance and confession.
That being said, I don't believe that the victims of religious hate crimes are "martyrs." Just victims. I think martyrdom is something more than just dying because you are called Christian. But this is another topic for another day.
Ray
This difference between what I wrote then and what I wrote a few days ago shows me and tells me alot about changes.
I miss this more than anything.
So please forgive me for complaining.
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php/topic,10579.msg128822.html#msg128822
Ray
Because we are Christians that is why. Simple. They hate Christians and they want to eradicate us from our homeland. It's an Islamic project that has been going on since the inception of Islam and the project has so far been successful in Turkey and Iraq, soon Syria and it's going very well in Lebanon and they are also making great strides in Nigeria and the Central African Republic where they are butchering Christians by the thousands. It's not for economic reasons (although that is making it worse) but overall, it's irrelevant.
Why do we let them kill us?
Because we are a peaceful, civilised and faithful people that put their trust in God, not guns and swords. Their God is a God of war and hate. Our God is a God of peace, forgiveness and love. We are instructed to suffer and be persecuted. They will kill us and we will show forgiveness and love. As long as we stand firm in our beliefs, keep our religion, our culture, our heritage, our land and our language (which Islam has been trying to destroy for centuries), we continue to defeat them better than any bullet can.
My best friend satan scene 10 from Joy E productions
How do I maintain a spiritual life and prosper also enough for a family?
no one wants to help someone for free. The talented people do not tend to be christians. If they are talented they got it from collaborating and learning with others. A wife wants to be proud of her husband dealing with others and learning new things and enjoying life. Not someone who only thinks of religion
My mother tells me to ignore things from christians that bother me