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Tav or Theeta?
So in these two amazing photos of HH, we see two possible names...On his black bornos, there is a Tav, assuming for Tawadros. But on his festive bornos, you see Theeta's, assuming for Theodoros. This is probably a mistake right? Or is he being recognized as both?
Comments
Its a Tav, alpha, Omega, alpha, delta, ro, seema
Tawadros for short :D
Pray for me, the fool
Ray
Its not just a Delta and a Ro,
Its a Tav, alpha, Omega, alpha, delta, ro, seema
Tawadros for short :D
Pray for me, the fool
Ray
Oh My God, I am blind! Lol thank you!
Its not just a Delta and a Ro,
Its a Tav, alpha, Omega, alpha, delta, ro, seema
Tawadros for short :D
Pray for me, the fool
Ray
No it spells Theodoros in coptic
Its not just a Delta and a Ro,
Its a Tav, alpha, Omega, alpha, delta, ro, seema
Tawadros for short :D
Pray for me, the fool
Ray
Wow, good eyes RO!
In the first picture, it is a Tav, probably for Tawadros. Again, the person who made the art for the bornos didn't know that in Coptic, the first letter of his name should be theta.
On a side note, is bornos an Arabic word? It is not Coptic or Greek. Anybody have any ideas what it could mean?
LOL. Coptic has become a messy language ...
In XC
oujai
:)
Its not just a Delta and a Ro,
Its a Tav, alpha, Omega, alpha, delta, ro, seema
Tawadros for short :D
Pray for me, the fool
Ray
No. It's. NOT! It's actually THEODOROS written in coptic, you got the letters wrong.
I know you're gonna hate me for this, but here is where I think bornos comes from
The greek word for the vestment is Omophorion
Take out the omo, you get phorion
the fi (ph) can easily be pronounced b if read in bohairic (this is why you'll hate me), so you get borion (sounds like egyptian cookies...haha)
Corrupt it and you get borionos or bornos
And yes, I think the T stands for Tawadros. There are many mis-spellings in coptic. Tawadros comes from Taudoros, which is the original coptic way of saying Theodore.
btw, am I the only one who sees a problem with clergy wearing their names? I mean, is it a sports jersey or something?
Also, when and why did Pope Shenouda get rid of the hood on the episcopal bornos?
The omophorion is a stole, whereas the bornos is a cape.
RO
I could still see the corruption making its way through.
It's one possibility.
Maybe someone can find some evidence of what bornos really is.
ὠμοφόριον
1. cape or tippet, 2. pallium
And if you do a image search for pallium, you'll see the pallium covers the entire body. It's hard to make out if it's a stole only or a cape.
BTW George,
I completely agree with omophorion. The omo/ono is dropped in Coptic words as a prefix and os or ios is dropped as a suffix. For example, St Nopher in Greek is Onophorius. In this case, the beginning "O" is dropped, not the entire "ono" but the whole suffix "ios" is dropped. Another example is "agnostos" for "anaghnostys"
I disagree with your assessment of Taudoros. If the original Coptic was taudoroc instead of ;eodoroc, then Old Bohairic would pronounce it "Dawadoros", not "Tawadoros". Additionally, the Coptic letter upsilon is not a gliding vowel. "Ou" is a gliding vowel. So if taudoroc is the spelling, it would be pronounced "DAU doros". The only way to get a pronunciation of Tawadros would be if the Coptic spelling is ;eoudoroc
Now it is possible that a single manuscript may have spelled ;eodoroc as taudoroc or ;eoudoroc, but it is not seen often enough to consider taudoroc as a Coptic spelling.
Again thanks for the clarification on bornos.
Dude, are you using google? Search omophorion or Pallium and you get nothing that looks like a cape. An omophorion (in the Eastern church) is a thicker Pallium (Western).
Pallium
Omophorium
Sorry my dude, but the omophorion is by no means similar to the Bornos. The only think that would be similar to the Bornos is the Eastern Phelonion
Ray
What one culture calls an onophorium, another culture will use the same word to describe a similar (and different) garment. Take for example, the English word "boat" is typically translated in Egyptian Cairene Arabic as "markeb". But markeb simply means traveling vehicle.
Here's another example. If a non-Arab saw a man wearing a gallabeya, he will call it a "dress". While in English, "dress" is usually reserved for a long female garment. This is culturally driven.
The point is that what we call a bornos (which we hypothesize is a Coptic derivative of the Greek liturgical omophorion) can describe a Coptic liturgical garment that looks nothing like the Greek omophorion.
One more thing. If we assume Phelonion is borrowed into Coptic (and I don't think it ever was) and we apply OB pronunciation with the similar dropping of the Greek suffix, we get Phelonion=Ballon. I just find that funny.
One more thing. If we assume Phelonion is borrowed into Coptic (and I don't think it ever was) and we apply OB pronunciation with the similar dropping of the Greek suffix, we get Phelonion=Ballon. I just find that funny.
There is actually a Coptic vestment similar to the Phelonion called the Ballin... LOL
I've never heard of a ballin. Does anyone have any pictures of a ballin?
The pope dresses each of the seven bishops in the video....after the sadreya.
Is it the belt thing?
yeah. i think some also have some in the shape of a corporeal hanging down.....the Pope was dressed one.
The belt thing that was used in the ceremony (and also in H.H's enthronment) is a zonarion in Greek (and zinar in Arabic). It is a girdle, and is part of the standard clerical dress even for presbyters in the Byzantine tradition. I believe Butler and Burmester also mention it as standard for Coptic clergy (not just bishops) though they acknowledge it is rarely used. Thus, I dont think it is something that identified the bishop at all.
The "coroporal hanging down" that the pope was wearing on his enthronement (and so was pope Shenouda in his) is a strictly Byzantine item called an Epigonation (lit. above the knee). A simple Google or Wikipedia search can give you some history on that item in the Byzantine tradition. I am not sure at all what it is doing in the Coptic tradition, since its history seems associated with imperial Byzantine honoring of clergy in Constantinople. In the Byzantine tradition it can be worn by presbyters also (or perhaps protopresbyters) if they are awarded it by their bishop...the rules for this differ by jurisdiction.
Finally, the coptic Ballin, as far as I understand it, is the only thing that is near equivalent to the Omophorion. A big shawl that drapes over the head, down the front, and crosses back. Many pictures of Pope Kyrillos are found wearing one.
Originally, even the omophorion was nothing but a special version of the epitrachelion of the presbyter and the orarion of the deacon, all are essentially long pieces of cloth signifying service and the particular ministry of the person wearing it. Again, i think the most exhaustive sources on vestments in the Coptic church would be Butler...can't think of others right now, but practically most other 19th cent British authors who wrote about the Coptic church talk about vestments to some extent.
"As for the priestly garment, which is seven parts as the number of the orders of the church. The first is the tonya (Stycharion) and the meaning of tonya is "sanctuarial" (Haykaleya). Then the turban, Like AAron the priest, who was commanded by God to wear a Turban in the Tabernacle. Then the third part is the "Zenar" (Zonarion) which the priest girds himself with, then the "kamine" (Epimanika) which gird? the hands of the priest to handle? the holy mysteries. Then after that the sixth part which is the batrachel (Epitrachelion) which the priest hangs around his neck and the meaning of batrachel from Greek is 1000 rocks. Then the 7th part is the bornos (Omophorion?) and if it was for a archbishop then the bornos should have a hood on it's head, but if not for an archbishop, then without a hood. The wearing of the vestments for the priest is to be prior to his ascent to the sanctuary, but for a bishop, it is after the offeratory and before the absolution and this is to differentiate between the bishops and the priest in rank."
A few things to notice.
He counts each kamine as a separate part (4th and 5th).
Also, he inaccurately derives batrachel from Petra meaning rock and Chilia meaning 1000.
Also, The bishop is to wear his vestments at the time of Nisawaw before the absolution. The only one I know who actually does this is Anba David. And he only does it for the outer vestments.
George,
The letter Dau (T) is pronounced both as D and T in Bohairic. There are many examples of this, one being Tob7. The commemoration is called Nitob7 or in arabic altob7at.
And I'm not saying that it was ever spelled as Taudoros, but the person who made the garment probably thought so. And it was probably too expensive to change it, so they let it go.