Hello
I posted this question in "Coptic Orthodox Church" But I wasnt getting much to no responses So thought here would a better place.I hope.
My name is Mohamed and I signed-up here to learn more about Coptic Christians.I believe that all the chaos thats happening in Egypt is because of Ignorance from both sides of Egyptian society and of course because of the economy.The best way to shun this ignorance is to build bridges so I thought starting here wouldnt hurt. I have some questions for you guys and I hope you can answer them
1-) Whats the primary difference between Copts and Catholics ?
2-) What is your view of the political climate in Egypt ? And do you see hope for the future under the MB?
3-) Whats the Coptic dress code ? (E.g. Muslims are required to wear modestly and not showy so bikinis are a no no)
4-)Whats your view of Muslims ? whats your view of Islam ?
5-)What have you heard of Islam that you find disturbing ? (Back-up with facts and sources)
You dont have to answer them all!
These are my questions for now
Thank You and God Bless!
Comments
When bombs are being put into our churches by Islamic individuals and the blood of our people forever stains the streets they walk on in their own country, we say forgive them because they don't know what they do. When our people can't even get jobs that they are more qualified for than the other Islamic candidate, we don't argue but pray that our God will someday open the blind ignorance out there.
You say you are trying to build bridges, but they are already there. We never shut anybody out, we never forbid contact with certain types of people, we are open to everybody. It is the people on the other side that are crossing the bridges for the wrong reasons, and even though this is happening, we don't close those bridges because we count it as a blessing to be persecuted for doing nothing wrong. These bridges were always open and they will always be open. Whenever they want to deal right with us we will always be on that other side waiting with open arms for our Egyptian brothers and sisters, and if they want to cross the bridge to cause destruction and pain we are also waiting joyfully because we know that our Master is waiting for us with open arms.
I don't want you to take this post as an attack on you because from the style of your writing I can tell that you are a very tolerant and educated individual who is Muslim and we respect you, I wrote this to simply let you know our side of life because it is misconstrued all the time.
People will answer the questions you have asked because you have asked with pure intentions and I admire you for that.
maybe you are right when saying that copts want to communicate and that christians dont do anything to stir any violence.What I meant by ignorance is that both sides dont want to take the time to learn about each others religion.You ask a Muslim in Egypt about Copts and its origin and more than likely they will not know same is true for a Coptic Christian you ask him or her about Islam and they wont know a thing.What concerns me is that Copts have a very negative view on Islam and Muslims.Almost all copts would associate any killings wiith Islam and that Muslims are generally bad people and that Muslims who do not kill are not true muslims.This is what a lot of copts believe and this is why I joined this forum.
Thanks for your posts!
maybe you are right when saying that copts want to communicate and that christians dont do anything to stir any violence.What I meant by ignorance is that both sides dont want to take the time to learn about each others religion.You ask a Muslim in Egypt about Copts and its origin and more than likely they will not know same is true for a Coptic Christian you ask him or her about Islam and they wont know a thing.What concerns me is that Copts have a very negative view on Islam and Muslims.Almost all copts would associate any killings wiith Islam and that Muslims are generally bad people and that Muslims who do not kill are not true muslims.This is what a lot of copts believe and this is why I joined this forum.
It's not "maybe" I am right. I am right. It's like when you have a new person in your community, you want to get to know him/her but when he says bad things to you, you don't want to get closer to him/her and you keep your distance for both of your sakes. This is what is happening here.
The reason many Coptic Christians have that view is because every time they are massacred and badly treated (which happens all the time and very frequently) it is done by an Islamic fanatic. Honestly, there is just too many violent Islamists out there and it makes peaceful and tolerant Muslims like your kind self to look very bad. It is sad really, and I really wish that there would be more people like you. Once there is religious tolerance, then Egypt can grow and do great things, but without religious tolerance Egypt will not leave square 1.
I will attempt to answer some of your questions;
1-) Whats the primary difference between Copts and Catholics ?
Actually, you have Coptic Catholics and Coptic Orthodox. The native type of Christianity in Egypt is Coptic orthodox. The vast majority of Christians in Egypt are Coptic Orthodox. While both Christian, Coptic Orthodoxy split from the rest of Christian sects even before the Muslim invasion. At the time, it was due to political differences. As time went on, Coptic Orthodoxy and Catholicism split further and further with time.
2-) What is your view of the political climate in Egypt ? And do you see hope for the future under the MB?
Quite terrible and we see no hope if the MB stay in power. We are happy that some of our Muslim brothers woke up and are fighting back against the MB. But if the MB were to survive, I expect most Copts will be gone from Egypt in a massive exodus.
3-) Whats the Coptic dress code ? (E.g. Muslims are required to wear modestly and not showy so bikinis are a no no)
There is no dress code. Dress modestly, respect your body but no need for higab.
4-)Whats your view of Muslims ? whats your view of Islam ?
Honestly, I really don't like Islam. I find it to be a contradictory religion. If you want to be a good person, there are verses that justify that. If you want to be an evil person, there are verses to justify that. I have no problem with Muslims such as yourself who live off the good verses. In fact, I have Muslim friends and most of my parents' friends are Muslim. But in the past couple of decades, Copts have been pushed further and further to the fringes of society as Egyptian society is becoming more religious to the point that Churches are now actually social clubs where Copts isolate themselves out of fear of violence and rejection. I find it hard not to find a causation and correlation between the rise of Islamic piety in Egypt and the rise of persecution of Copts.
5-)What have you heard of Islam that you find disturbing ? (Back-up with facts and sources)
I don't have the time right now to search up all these verses. But it's the stuff like
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
and so on...Basically the kind of stuff terrorists and evil preachers mention every day to justify their hate and violence against Copts...
And now I have a few questions for you:
1. Do Muslim, including yourself, know what the Coptic language is?
2. How is Egypt viewed in relation to the grand Islamic nation? F.ex. in all honesty, would Egyptian Muslims prefer to be ruled by a Coptic Egyptian or by a Malaysian Muslim?
Its sad that you would have a very negative view of Islam.You have to understand the time period and causes as to when the verses were revealed.I consider myself to be pretty educated in my faith.So I have to mention that we always have to put the Quran in perspective and in context.These verses were revealed only after a people or tribe announces war against muslims.Back then Muslims just stayed by themselves and not care about other people and just wanted to be left alone but then many tribes wanted muslims eradicated so these Verses were revealed and God was giving Muslims the permission to defend themselves ONLY against a people who intend to prosecute Muslims.Islam Does not allow muslims to prosecute peaceful Non-Muslims.I've attached a link.it shows a letter that was sent to the Christian monks in Sinai from the Prophet Mohamed.Sadly some Muslims are doing the exact opposite what God and the Prophet ordered.If you dont believe me or take my words seriously then you've pretty much proved my point that Ignorance does come from both sides.
And I do agree with you that If the MBs are not cooperative that a lot of people will leave the country.
1-) I do know that its derived from the ancient Egyptian langauge and rarely to never-spoken outside church mass.
2-) I dont know what you mean by the grand Islamic nation but in Egypt one place is viewed as a hot-spot for Muslims around the world to gather to learn more about the religion and that is Al-Azhar University.
And no im sure many Egyptian muslims would not like to have Copt in power,at this point of time only.Go back to the 50s to racists America would a white man prefer a black man having power ? no same in Egypt.And many would not like to have foreigner rule over Egyptians.
http://www.islamic-study.org/saint_catherine_monastery.htm ; <<<<The Link to the letter
[quote author=Altair91 link=topic=14240.msg163120#msg163120 date=1359869480]
Thanks for your posts!
maybe you are right when saying that copts want to communicate and that christians dont do anything to stir any violence.What I meant by ignorance is that both sides dont want to take the time to learn about each others religion.You ask a Muslim in Egypt about Copts and its origin and more than likely they will not know same is true for a Coptic Christian you ask him or her about Islam and they wont know a thing.What concerns me is that Copts have a very negative view on Islam and Muslims.Almost all copts would associate any killings wiith Islam and that Muslims are generally bad people and that Muslims who do not kill are not true muslims.This is what a lot of copts believe and this is why I joined this forum.
It's not "maybe" I am right. I am right. It's like when you have a new person in your community, you want to get to know him/her but when he says bad things to you, you don't want to get closer to him/her and you keep your distance for both of your sakes. This is what is happening here.
The reason many Coptic Christians have that view is because every time they are massacred and badly treated (which happens all the time and very frequently) it is done by an Islamic fanatic. Honestly, there is just too many violent Islamists out there and it makes peaceful and tolerant Muslims like your kind self to look very bad. It is sad really, and I really wish that there would be more people like you. Once there is religious tolerance, then Egypt can grow and do great things, but without religious tolerance Egypt will not leave square 1.
ok you're right! and you're right about religious tolerance too.But in order to have religious tolerance you must have a good economy.If egypt finds large reserves of Petrol then you've pretty much solved every problem in Egypt.Sadly thats how the world works nowadays.
I will try to answer you questions, as much as I can, when one asks about religion to find out more about it, the person does not need to get into the details of the religion's separations, so when I want to learn about Islam, my first question about Islam would be what do Muslims believe, and what does Islam teach... not what is the difference between sunnah and shia... If I wanted to learn about either, I would go and ask followers of each for the information, because as a person who wants the truth, you already know the answer would be bias, so if I ask you about shia, you would give me a bias answer to favor sunnah, so out of respect for your knowledge, I don't think this question should be discussed, and should surely not be the first on your list. again, not a question about the faith, if you want to learn about Christianity, ask questions about Christianity... but what is the political climate? we have no political agenda or such, but you can clearly see the information of whats going on in the news... and we suffered and went through the Roman empire, the MB is nothing compared to the roman empire, and all the other empires that came and had Copts as constituents. again a question that has NO relevance to learning about Christianity, its the same as if I ask you what is the dress code in Islam, a Hijab?! NO! a niqab?! NO... and really Islam hasn't a dress code (according to many shikhs, including el azhar), are you telling me Muslims don't wear bikinis?! I can easily tell you they do... are you telling me muslims are always modest in what they wear, I can easily tell you, NO! but as you are told to dress modestly in the Quran, we are told the same in the Bible. thats all that need to be spoken about with modesty in clothes, because again how people dress is not always the desired way of the faith, but it happens... but again, with all due respect, not a question to ask when wanting to learn about a religion. I've been to many places of worship, and believe me that was the last thing on my mind to ask about a religion. I love Muslims, almost all of my friends are Muslim, I have no problem with any Muslim... for Islam, its another religion, just like Jewish, Sikh, and whatever religion, I believe some things are right, and I believe somethings are wrong... but in the end, its just a religion. out of respect for you and for my Muslim friends, I will choose not to answer this question, because I don't seek the negatives, but I prefer to look at the positives, so believe it or not I have read the Quran, I have read things that I like a lot... but again I have read things that were not too great... but that is normal, its the same if you read the bible you will find things you would like, and things you would not, or anyone from outside the religion reading the religion's holy book.
My name is Mohamed and I signed-up here to learn more about Coptic Christians...
Welcome to the forum. i'll try to state my opinion and answer most of your question but now all. I do not see any hope for a future under the MB. Despite all the problems that are happening, I am happy, in a way, simply because now you can see the true face of Elkhwan. It's not really a simple Muslim group but they have much more future plans (mostly political) and they are lying to everyone and doing ANYTHING even if it was against things that they said before they would never do. Now that they are in power, you can see all the dirt on them.
I don't expect them to stay in power though. the ppl would simply not allow these things to happen. sooner or later things will be good......We Pray!!! the word "modest" is objective to where you live in the world and what culture. you said bikinis are a nono but then you'd have a girl wearing a hegad on her head but then wearing the tightest jeans ever.....
there is no "coptic" dress code. people are not forced to be in a dress code....in fact they are not forced to do anything. But all is encouraged to dress appropriately..... I don't know if i have a unique view. but i do have to say that people hate islam just for those simple acts. and this didn't just start recently or around Sept 11. Egypt has been under Islamic persecution little after the arab conquest to egypt. You say you are a very educated guy?! read the history of egypt and how islamic rulers, to force arabic and destroy coptic in egypt, they used to cut off the tongue of whoever spoke a word of coptic. or why are copts/christians in egypt are called 'adma zarqa' = blue bone referring to the period were christians were forced to carry a stone cross that weighs their size (maybe double).....And many more……oh wait, one of craziest:
Did you know that masged Ahmad Ibn Tulun, one of the greatest in Egypt, was built by a coptic engineer name Said Ibn Katen. When Ahmad Ibn tulun thought of building the mosque, his engineers said that he’ll need around 300 granite pillars and that was just too many to find in Egypt. The other way out was to go to the churches in the villages and destroy them to take the pillars. That’s when Said came to him and told him I’ll build the entire masque for you with only 2 pillars. And his design exceeded all of the standards of architecture in the entire world. When all of this was done, Ahmad asked him to become a muslim…Said refused….so he cut off his head.
I donno what kind of things you can do and say to atone for all of this persecution through the years....i was born in the late 80s and had many muslim friends back and egypt and many that we considered family.....and even here in the states...relations with any muslims are good. but i still understand if poeple in egypt are still hating islam.
tell me what you think......and don't just search up the people in the documentary and tell me 'they are conservative'
And the reason I asked about the dress code is that I've seen Coptic girls wear bikinis and these ladies are practicing christians , so I was just curious if If copts had any specific dress code that they have to follow.And no if muslim women are wearing bikinis then I wouldnt exactly call them practcing muslims.
Your comments on #4 were pretty explosive.Do you have any sources ? I tried researching the architect but no results.
@minatasgeel
Your comments on #4 were pretty explosive.Do you have any sources ? I tried researching the architect but no results.
lol.....this is only one example.....not even major one in the history of egypt. the info i have are in arabic:
Link
If you look at the arabic version of the wikipedia text about the masged, it includes the engineers name but they don't do so in the english:
Link
I can try to find a book of the history of our Church during the arabic conquest if you'd like.
I found your question no 5 differcult because you ask two different things: one, what I have heard; two, to back it up by facts.
I will go with what I think because of what I hear.
The first thing I like is that Saint Mary is mentioned in the koran more than in the bible so gives more account of Her than otherwise be the case.
The second is that I have muslim friends and that I know I am to love my brother.
The way I see it is that the soul is feminine and the spirit masculine. So in our scriptures we are the bride of Christ and it is like we are to deliver
the bride in purity, that is to deliver our souls to the wedding in purity. That we should know how to prepare the bride and that the Holy Spirit guides us
in this.
In regards to the spirit, if it is masculine, then I veiw the spirit in Islam as being a bit too strong in looking after souls, the feminine.
The remission of sin becomes the submission of sin.
@ Superman. I wanted to learn more about Copts not the religion.I already have a very basic understanding of your faith.But I want to get into coptic insights and your perspectives and that is something you cannot learn from the internet.
And the reason I asked about the dress code is that I've seen Coptic girls wear bikinis and these ladies are practicing christians , so I was just curious if If copts had any specific dress code that they have to follow.And no if muslim women are wearing bikinis then I wouldnt exactly call them practcing muslims.
If you have an understanding of what we believe can you just explain these to me.
1. How many gods do the Christians worship?
2. When Jesus Christ is called the "Son of God" what does that mean?
3. What does the Cross mean to Christians? what does it Symbolize?
I also find pride as a big problem concerning mankind and sin. Pride says "I know" and it also trys to prove itself. It seems to be a masculine sin that is full of arguement.
Hello
I posted this question in "Coptic Orthodox Church" But I wasnt getting much to no responses So thought here would a better place.I hope.
My name is Mohamed and I signed-up here to learn more about Coptic Christians.I believe that all the chaos thats happening in Egypt is because of Ignorance from both sides of Egyptian society and of course because of the economy.The best way to shun this ignorance is to build bridges so I thought starting here wouldnt hurt. I have some questions for you guys and I hope you can answer them
1-) Whats the primary difference between Copts and Catholics ?
2-) What is your view of the political climate in Egypt ? And do you see hope for the future under the MB?
3-) Whats the Coptic dress code ? (E.g. Muslims are required to wear modestly and not showy so bikinis are a no no)
4-)Whats your view of Muslims ? whats your view of Islam ?
5-)What have you heard of Islam that you find disturbing ? (Back-up with facts and sources)
You dont have to answer them all!
These are my questions for now
Thank You and God Bless!
Hi Mohammad,
Welcome to the Forum!
Well, I as a Coptic Christian, happen to agree with you. I do not know why Copts are against Morsi or an Islamic State. Why are Coptic Christians so inclined to be secular in Egypt for? When they immigrate to Europe, or Canada, they are not secular. They are highly religious people.
HEre's a small test: we all live outside of Egypt in Secular Countries. Will there anyone here be voting in favor of Gay marriages?
So, I am for a religious state simply because I'm a religious person.
I think the modesty in Islam is very noble also. I think the burqa is a bit over the top though.
My opinion about Islam is this:
There are some things I like about Islam and there are some things I do not like about islam.
What I like about Islam is the phrase: "La illah illa allah" -there is no other god but Allah. We also believe in One God. So that's something good.
What I dislike about islam is personal, and I don't wish to share it on a public forum, but I'm sure you're smart enough to see.
Anyway, concerning the situation in Egypt, we have our identity. We are Christian, but we are also modest in our attire. At least we should be. Its stupid Coptic Christians asking for a secular egypt when they themselves are religious.
2) Is there any future under the MB?
I think there could be a future under the MB, but they are not yet ready to lead. They are full of good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I think it would have been wiser to get someone in power with more experience in politics and economics than in religion.
80% of Egypt is muslim, so Its ALREADY an Islamic State, whether its in the Constitution or not! Islam will not bring you a better economy.
3) Copts should have a modest dress code.
At the beach, i see NOTHING wrong with a girl wearing a bikini though, but i would be upset if she was wearing it in the street.
I think women are great, and if she wears a bikini, so what?? what does that have to do with me? The beach is not just for me, its for everyone else.
4) My view of muslims? I cannot generalise, but I can tell u this:
My view of Egyptian Muslims is the Same as my view of Egyptian Christians: both of them can ruin my day and both know how to make me laugh.
My view of Islam: Well.. i kinda admire how muslims stick to their religion. I do not think a secular Europe is that great. We have been robbed of our Christian identity with this separation of Church and State and Society is just getting out of hand, abortions, pre-marital sex, gay marriages, crime etc.. it wasn't the case before this wave of aggressive secularism started.
Don't get me wrong, secularism is fair, but when you have a society where many are atheists, they will use secularism to drive their own agendas to annihilate all religions. The same with Egypt: Democracy is good, but you have the MB who are using it for their own agendas to create an Islamic State.
I find it EXTREMELY odd that 50% of Egypt voted against Morsi. That means there are 50% secular muslims?
You see, I do not believe in the term "Secular Muslims", but what can I call them? This "Bassem Youssef"group?
Their islam is CLEARLY not the same as those practised by Salafists or MB's.. is it??
Which Islam is correct? Is a muslim who wants a secular Egypt a good muslim or is a muslim who wants an islamic Egypt a good muslim?
5)
What I find disturbing about islam is your laws on apostasy. I do not understand why u wish this? Its like forcing someone to believe in a god that they do not believe in. Its like your god just wants you to show him that you love him, when in reality, you do not care.
I find temporary marriages disturbing. How on earth can God tell your prophet that temporary marriages are OK and then later change his mind?
I find breast feeding adults a very strange thing also.
There are many many things in islam I find odd, but I won't say them here.
One thing I do wish to say is this: I am REALLY ok for you to believe in a rock - just don't throw it at me!
I am REALLY ok for you to believe in a rock - just don't throw it at me!
Very funny ;D ;D ;D
This is quote of the month!!!
P.S. not to take sides or anything but I just find the wording funny.
3) Copts should have a modest dress code.
At the beach, i see NOTHING wrong with a girl wearing a bikini though, but i would be upset if she was wearing it in the street.
I think women are great, and if she wears a bikini, so what?? what does that have to do with me? The beach is not just for me, its for everyone else.
I disagree. Our bodies are the temple of God, whether we're at the beach or in our bedrooms. You're saying because everyone else wears bikinis, it's ok for us to? The street is the same as the beach. I hate when girls say, "he shouldn't have been looking. It's not my fault." Totally wrong.
I think the question is about, should the church have a greater social reponsiblity in regards to the way women dress?
No I don't, but I think our approach is different because we don't deny them their free will in society.
God chooses us like He chose the Apostles. So our lineage has being chosen, rather than that of the protestants whose hasn't.
I like islam's approach,some of it hard. But modesty is best.
I think the question is about, should the church have a greater social reponsiblity in regards to the way women dress?
No I don't, but I think our approach is different because we don't deny them their free will in society.
God chooses us like He chose the Apostles. So our lineage has being chosen, rather than that of the protestants whose hasn't.
I like islam's approach,some of it hard. But modesty is best.
Excellent responses: then we all agree.
We should see what we have in common with Islam then! Muslims should not think we are against them.
I think those who are against Islam are really most likely going to be atheists or Molhedeen people.
Why should I be against a Muslim state when I'm a religious person also? Surely this state would also appeal to my morals also!
My point about a woman wearing a bikini is this: It has nothing to do with me. I did not say I want to see women wearing a bikini, I said it has NOTHING to do with me if she does.
I did say that wearing immodestly in the street is wrong though as well have to interact and live together.
Muslims should know that as Christians, dressing modestly IS part of our nature and our personality. Hence we DO have things in common.
I do, however, find the Niqab/Burka, extreme. Its also UNFAIR for a woman to be wearing a niqab at the beach in the middle of summer time and going into the beach with it.
This also makes me sad when I see this.
[quote author=Altair91 link=topic=14240.msg163127#msg163127 date=1359902056]
These verses were revealed only after a people or tribe announces war against muslims.Back then Muslims just stayed by themselves and not care about other people and just wanted to be left alone but then many tribes wanted muslims eradicated so these Verses were revealed and God was giving Muslims the permission to defend themselves ONLY against a people who intend to prosecute Muslims.
I agree that historical data is needed to understand passages like these verses. And while it is probable that these verse in the Quran were given when tribes attacked Muslims, there are flaws to this argument.
1. There is a difference between survival and revenge. No one will argue that killing is justified for survival. There is imminent danger. But killing and eradicating those tribes who attacked Muslims first goes beyond survival into uninhibited revenge. The Quran says in Surah 2:191 "And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." This is not survival if there is premeditated genocide. There is no imminent danger. The "victim" who is on the offensive attack cannot claim his actions are defensive in nature. Rather, this is revenge against those who are different (who don't believe in the same God as Islam's Allah).
2. What happens when the tribe is Muslim and the tribe wants to eradicate non-Muslims? Surah 2:190 says "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." Modern tribes, like Al-Qaida which is Muslim, attacked America on 9/11/01. Al-Qaida was not defending itself. According to the Quran, they are transgressors. In a 2009 poll, found here and summarized by this Wikipedia article states "With regards specifically to al-Qaeda, in Egypt, 21% of respondents supported their attacks on Americans, while 33% opposed attacks on Americans but supported al-Qaeda's goals and 28% opposed both al-Qaeda's attacks and goals; the remainder held no strong opinion." What about Osama Bin Ladin? "With regards to feelings about the former al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, Muslims tended to show even stronger support. In Egypt, 44% held positive feelings, 25% held mixed feelings, and 17% held negative feelings." No matter what major Muslim authorities publicly say against terrorist attacks and suicide bombings, a sizable majority of Muslims in general supports attacking, not protecting. This by definition of Surah 2:191 is a transgression.
3. Ethically, there is a delimma. The Quran says any non-Muslim who attacks a Muslim must die (2:191) but any Muslim who attacks non-Muslim is simply a transgressor.(2:191) This murdering Muslim is simply an unfaithful Muslim. He cannot be killed because then this would justify other Muslims killing in retaliation.
4. Even if the first surat instruct to kill those who attack Muslims only, later verses do not share the same sentiments. As Pharoah123 already cited, the Quran says "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve." One cannot simply choose to reference early verses and ignore later verses that contradict the first verses. We can always spend time examining if many of these later verses conform or contradict. If they do contradict early verses, then Islam is inconsistent in its theology.
5. The above 2009 poll describes Muslim attitudes of terrorist attacks and terrorists from Muslims, not Coptic Christians. One cannot simply accuse the Copts of unjustly having a negative view of Islam. If Coptic Christians have a negative view of Islam, it is because non-terrorist Muslims support terrorists. Now I will grant you that many Muslim officials and groups have spoken against the 2011 Alexandria bombing on New Years, even the Muslim Brotherhood. Maybe high ranking Muslim clerics and groups are trying to change the image of Islam. But they need to change Muslim attitudes for war and terrorism before they appear to the non-Muslim world and denounce terrorism.
6. Let's face the truth together. "Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, a Muslim and the general manager of Arab news channel, Al-Arabiya has said it is a "fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims." Now I wouldn't go as far as to say that all terrorists are Muslim. Even the US counter terrorism center doesn't believe this. In their report over half the terrorist attacks are perpetrated by Muslims. The other half are mostly "unknown or unspecified" We Copts do not believe all Muslim are terrorists, nor all terrorists are Muslim. We do believe that so many terrorist attacks against Copts by Muslims, justifies a negative view of Islam or at least a negative view in response to crimes from a sample of Muslims that remain unpunished. It is not that we are not taking your words seriously or that we are blinded by ignorance and hatred of Islam. It is experience that tells us that some Muslims (possibly the vast majority) do not follow the covenant of Mt Sinai. It has therefore lost credibility. You might be surprised to know that there are Muslims Coptics who speak (or at least study) Coptic and/or Ancient Egyptian and Demotic for daily use. This isn't a fair comparison. In early 20th century America where racism was rampant, it was ignorant people who fought against desegregation. Racism was illegal since President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation in January 1, 1863. Intellectual Americans do not have a problem with an African Americans having power, even back then. In fact since Fredrick Douglass, many African Americans have been nominated for presidental and vice-presidental nominations. Even African American women are on these lists. And many African Americans were senators and major political leaders. The first African American senator was Hiram Revels of Mississippi in 1870. Political positions filled by African Americans and women have been rising.
Contrastly, there has never been a Coptic presidential or vice-presidential nominee. There as been a general decline in Coptic political positions since the Declaration of 1922. There has never been any indication from intellectual Muslim Egyptians that a qualified non-Muslim Egyptian can hold high office in Egypt.
Hopefully, I'm wrong. I tried my best to give you logical, intellectual responses with resources as you requested. I only ask that you do not view this as hatred against Islam or Muslims. Rather it was meant to be an honest response to your inquiries.
I will try my best to respond to you one by one!
@Minatasgeel
I watched the video I have to tell you , its really bogus.They're taking Verses out of the Quran and explaining things in their own thiinking.And not one muslim was in the video.If you want to learn about Islam , Would it be fair to learn from a muslim website ? I want to learn about Christianity and christians should I go to a muslim website to find out ? Should I ask The MBs about how Christians feel ? Of course not Its best to learn a about Islam from a muslim website the same goes for all other religions.
And Thanks for the sources but I cannot read arabic.
@Superman
Im not sure how is this related but I'll answer them
1)Christians believe in one God
2)Im not sure about this one but it doesnt mean in the literal human sense that Jesus is the son.
3)This seems very broad but I know the cross is very important to people who wear it.
@ Remnkemi
Thank You for addressing your concerns.however due to scruntiny of time I will have to answer in a few hours time if thats alright but please stay tune for my response
And this goes the same for everyone else's
Thanks for your patience!
@Minatasgeel
I watched the video I have to tell you , its really bogus.They're taking Verses out of the Quran and explaining things in their own thiinking.And not one muslim was in the video.If you want to learn about Islam , Would it be fair to learn from a muslim website ? I want to learn about Christianity and christians should I go to a muslim website to find out ? Should I ask The MBs about how Christians feel ? Of course not Its best to learn a about Islam from a muslim website the same goes for all other religions.
You are correct. I am not taking the documentary as a source to learn about Islam...but it shows you the reality of what's happening. You said not one of them is a muslim?! There was one that were "ex-gehadist" that were originally muslims to.
I understand that to know Islam i should goto an Islamic website....but to me, personally, what I see from muslim people, action-wise, doesn't help with the desire to do so.
Mabrook minatasgeel on your first 6000 posts. God be with you.
I was hoping you would be able to answer the question of the soul being feminine and the spirit being masculine Altair9. Because the koran was written in arabic and the word soul in arabic is feminine, likewise, the spirit is masculine.
So I would of thought that a soul would treat another soul in spirit, would be with compassion, just like the koran teaches to look after the poor. If the spirit acts like the masculine and denies the feminine of the soul, then it is left with the aggression that the masculine has. Not only this, but the masculine tries to prove itself and in this is much contention. To prove itself, it asks questions that are polerizing, whereas, if it took the feminie approach it would say we are different but on the same side.
Thanks Altair9. Take your time. It's good that your on the forum. God bless.
"The Muslims were concerned as to wether it was permitted to retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca when on Pilgrimage(See 2:196 and Razi's Tafsir).They are here given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers,in the precinct or outside it"
*So you see , you could say that this was a permission to fight to defend.It wasnt an order to invade another Tribe or kill them. The verse before this one is "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors." (Quran 2:190) so its pretty evident that Muslims are only allowed to fight those who attack us.
I believe the reason why God Would take a hardline against the enemies of Muslims back then was bacause Muslims were always under threat.Muslims were a new people and of course the Ruling pagans did not like their message of Worshipping one God.So they prosecuted Muslims.Imagine Jews and the Holocaust.If God wanted to send a Prophet to the Jews in the time of the Holocaust, Do you think God Will go easy on the Nazis ? I dont think so.You can compare the Pagan of Arabia to the Nazis.Nazis wanted Jews gone and Arab Pagans wanted Muslims eradicated.
The Surah was meant only to one time period, and that is, just incase if the enemies attacked,God Is giving permission to fight back.Al-Qaeda is a nutcase and I dont know where they get their teachings from.If the Surah really meant to go and Kill Unbelievers , you would think that Countries like Saudi Arabia or any Shariah Compliant country would launch an attack on another Non-muslim country.
on#2 Ok the reason why some "favored" the attacks are more than likely for political reasons and not a religious one.I think a lot of egyptians are still under-educated.People who favored are mostly for political reasons and not a religious one.
on #3 When a Muslim attacks in battle he must not attack innocent non-combatants so if a Muslim disobeys God and attacks any innocent persons then that Muslim has become a transgressor and i have no doubt he will face a severe punishment when he stands in God's Court for disobeying.
In the Surah It is refering to those who are attacking Muslims IN BATTLE and in any battles people die.
#4 all enemies of Muslims back then were all "disbelievers" so God is refering to the Unbelievers who were about to attack them assuring muslims that they should have nothing to fear in the battle.And If Im not wrong this verse was revealed during Battle of Badr, the first battle Muslims fought against their Meccan opponents ,again the time period of when a verse was revealed is very important. If you were fighting Nazis or worst the anti-christ and his allies and they outnumber you,wouldnt you like God to send down this verse to assure you and and your brethern that God is with you and that He Will Help you defeat your enemies ? I would and its the same here ,Muslims were under threat of extinction because of the Meccans and here God Is assuring Muslims that God's Help is with them.And remember , in Battle of Badr Muslims were outnumbered three to one.
#5 I cant blame Copts for having a negative views of Islam,Copts have been under pressure for so long and what has the government done ? nothing!. I dont know whats wrong with Muslims who support barbaric acts but I assure you All good muslims dont support the killings of innocents.Most Egyptian muslims in Egypt WANT to see Copts have their freedom and dignity that they deserve.
#6 Yes its sad that most of these terror activities were committed by so-called-Muslims.late 20th and 21st century is where radicals really started coming to light.But if You look through out history almost every religious group had a period of violence.Theres no doubt christians have also undergone a period of intense violence in the early centuries.Some of which were religious and some were not.
And Muslims who kill unjustly MUST be punished, If any so-called-muslim goes unpunished then thats because the Police and the Court are corrupt.
*I dont know what you mean by it has lost its credibility.But The letter that was sent by Prophet Mohamed is meant to follow until the Day Of Judgment and any Muslim who does not follow what was stated in the letter has Broken his covenant with God and the Massenger as stated in the letter.I dont think the vast majority of Muslims are educated enough to know the existence of the Letter.Thats how bad education is in Egypt .
*Now I take back what I said about Copts being elected into office. i cant speak for Egyptians I have not been to egypt for years so Probably attitudes have changed.I apologise If I offended anyone.
And no I dont take your post as a hateful one. Its good that you voiced your opionion and thanks.
That "Ex-Gihadists" you were refering to is a fake
here check him out
And yes Muslims must show more actions than words but given the current climate , Initiating any action seems very difficult.
#3 your wrong, a women's privates are more sensitive to mens.If they want to show off their "lingerie" , then let them do so in the intimacy of their spouses.That is a given rule Given By God to all women of the Abrahamic Faiths.And I believe churches should do more in addressing the importance of wearing modest clothing wether it be at the beach or in the street.
Women are a jewel to humanity and to her spouse and she should protect her "ornaments" ,If you know what I mean, from the public and only be shown to her husband.
I dont think the Niqab has any place in Islam but the Head Scarf or hijab does.I mean seriously you have to respect a woman who covers herself even in a hot day.Shes respecting God's Command to to be covered.
#4
A lot of the Salafists are a little too extreme and I hope they never come to power.
A Muslim who wants a secular state doesnt mean his a bad person Turkey is secular but does that mean every Muslims in that country is bad ? No of course not.But he or she and christians included should abide by his/her respective religious practices into their personal lives if they are living in a secular state.
#5 Can you be more specific regarding Apostasy I didnt quite understand what you said in the sentence
And What are you talking about regarding temporary marrriages ? I never heard of such thing can you provide a source ?
Thanks
I find your post to be a little hard to understand lol could you explain again ?
What do you mean Spirit ?