› ›

Pope Tawadros or Pope Theodoros?

Anthonypk7Anthonypk7
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Which one is the true name for His Holiness? Tawadros or Theodoros?
HE Anba Bakhomios announced him as Pope Tawadros II, but others say its Theodoros...  ???

Comments

  • mabsootamabsoota
    they are different ways of pronouncing the greek name.
    if you start from greek, through coptic and arabic, you get tawadrous, and if you start with greek and go through latin and english you get theodorus or theodore.
    it's like arabs say 'mariam' and english say 'mary'.
    or jews say 'Yeshoue' ', arabs say 'Yesoue' ' and english say 'Jesus', which sounds wrong, but that's how is comes into english.
  • ArchdeaconArchdeacon
    Yes, they are two different pronunciations of the same name.  The question is which one to use.  Usually when we have a name that has many different pronunciations, we use the one that the person uses to refer to himself.  For example, it is well known that the late His Holiness Pope Shenouda had 2 pronunciations for his name (shenouda and shenouti).  The first one is Bohairic Coptic and the second is Sahidic Coptic/Arabic.  Since Pope Shenouda was from the Saeed (where they say shenouda, babnuda, baula instead of shenouti, paphnuti, pavly), he referred to himself using the Sahidic pronounciation (Shenouda).  He also commented on several occasions that he would like to be called Shenouda.

    Sometimes it's not so clear.  An example of this would be Bishop David.  I remember a long time ago, whenever Bishop David would come to visit the churches, the older deacons would get messed up with his name.  They would try to say it in Arabic (Dawood) and so in all the hymns they would say "our holy father Anba Dawood."  It sounded awkward since nobody ever calls him Anba Dawood.  I don't think he himself uses that name.  He always calls himself David.  Now that the new generation is all grown up and in charge of the alhan, whenever Bishop David is present, we say (day-vid) even if the hymn or response is in Arabic.  But since the Coptic pronunciation for the name, which is (dah-veed) is not all that different, whenever we are chanting in Coptic, we use the Coptic pronunciation.  Bishop David has no problem with this so it's all good.

    To summarize, it will depend on whether or not the new pope will want us to stick to Tawadros, or if he will allow us to use other pronunciations.  I assume that everyone in Egypt will stick to Tawadros since Theodoros is quite different and so it will probably sound awkward.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa

    Sorry not to stay with the theme of the thread but I thought Jesus was greek and not english and the jewish (hebrew) was Joshua. This is for mabsoota.
  • imikhailimikhail
    Tawadros is the authentic way of saying the name in Coptic - brfore 1858 when Aryan Moftah changed the way the Coptic letters are pronounced.

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    I think we all will be saying Tawadrous. His Holiness was ordained a bishop with that pronunciation. Similar to HG Bishop David being ordained with the 3 names, David, Daveed, Dawood, depending on the language you are speaking into.
  • Severian
    I do hope his name is translated into English as "Theodore" or "Theodorus." As an Arabic speaker, it is going to frustrate me to no end if I have to hear his name mispronounced for the next 20 years or so! :P
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Severian link=topic=13834.msg160929#msg160929 date=1352095187]
    I do hope his name is translated into English as "Theodore" or "Theodorus." As an Arabic speaker, it is going to frustrate me to no end if I have to hear his name mispronounced for the next 20 years or so! :P

    hmmm.....i feel bad for you "for the next 20 years or so!"
  • mabsootamabsoota
    Joshua is "yeshoue' ' from hebrew directly to english and 'Jesus' is from hebrew to greek and then to english. it's silly that we have 2 ways of saying the same name!
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13834.msg160924#msg160924 date=1352082106]
    Tawadros is the authentic way of saying the name in Coptic - brfore 1858 when Aryan Moftah changed the way the Coptic letters are pronounced.

    Oh? Since both Tawadros and Tadros are pronunciations of ;eodoroc, Tadros must be made up. But it can't be from the evil GB people since both Tawadros and Tadros are from OB.

    Yes, I know nobody wants to hear another OB vs GB discussion (most of all myself) but the only difference between Tawadros and Theodoros (which is the OP's original question), is one is OB and is GB. It has nothing to do with Greek.

    More importantly, why should we use Theodoros in English when the only English equivalent is Theodore? If you look at Wikipedia's List of Coptic Popes, they use English equivalents only. There is no Pope Morkos, no Pope Kyrillos, no Pope Khael, no Pope Matta, no Pope Botros, no Pope Petros,  no Pope Ghobraeel, no Pope Yousab, no Pope Yoanness, etc. Why borrow the transliteration, "Theodoros", when there is already an English equivalent, "Theodore"?

    On a side note, I have seen many news pieces saying Theodoros means "God chooses". That's wrong. In Greek, Theodoros means "God's gift".
  • metouro
    [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13834.msg160940#msg160940 date=1352126316]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13834.msg160924#msg160924 date=1352082106]
    Tawadros is the authentic way of saying the name in Coptic - brfore 1858 when Aryan Moftah changed the way the Coptic letters are pronounced.

    ... If you look at Wikipedia's List of Coptic Popes, they use English equivalents only. ... Why borrow the transliteration, "Theodoros", when there is already an English equivalent, "Theodore"? 

    That site (wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Coptic_Popes)  actually names His Holilness, Pope Theodorus II (not Tawadros)

    I think, Tawadros is an arabized deviation of Theororus, just as Gawargios is an arabized deviation of Georgios.  Tawadros should be Theodorus a just as Gawargios should be Georgios.
  • Anthonypk7Anthonypk7
    I actually asked a priest about this and he said the name is decided by how the Pope refers to himself. He refers to himself as "Tawadros", so there you go  ;D
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Metouro,
    Yes I know Wikipedia says Theodorus II. That is wrong and that is my point. In their entire list, they used English equivalents for every pope (if an English equivalent exists) except for Theodore (which makes no sense). And Tawadros is not an arabicized version of Theodorus. It is the OB Coptic version, not Arabic.

    What HH wants to call himself is not the point I'm making. I'm simply stating Theodore is the English word, not Tawadros. There have been 8 Pope Morkos, none of them are called "Morkos" in English writings because Mark is the English equivalent. In any English writings about Christology or the Ecumenical council of Ephesus against Nestorius, we don't see Pope Kyrellos I. It's always Pope Cyril or Cyril of Alexandria. And Gawargios in English is ALWAYS George, not Georgios. Have you ever seen a plaque on a Coptic Church that says St Gawargios Coptic Orthodox Church? No. It's always St George Coptic Orthodox Church. I'm talking about proper English, not personal preference.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear all,
    remenkimi is being addressed by others as remenkimi although it should properly be remenkami
    metouro is being addressed by others as metouro although it should properly be madowro.
    in the case of Tawadros this is the right pronunciation, why should it be changed?
    we don't just call people named Peter Botros because they live in Egypt, or vice versa..
    dear remenkimi,
    Tawadros and Tadros are two versions of the same name, as are Christian and Kristian in German.. or Louise and Lois in English.. James and Jamie in English
    dear archdeacon,
    what you're referring to is Greco-Bohairic rather than Bohairic..
    oujai
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13834.msg160968#msg160968 date=1352159491]
    Dear all,
    we don't just call people named Peter Botros because they live in Egypt, or vice versa..
    If you're writing an English document, yes you use Peter, even if he is known as Botros. Pope Peter I was never called Peter, but you will never find any English history written as Pope Botros.

    dear remenkimi,
    Tawadros and Tadros are two versions of the same name, as are Christian and Kristian in German.. or Louise and Lois in English.. James and Jamie in English
    dear archdeacon,
    what you're referring to is Greco-Bohairic rather than Bohairic..
    oujai

    No. Christian is English, Kristian is German. Louise is a female name, Louis is a male name. James is a proper male name, Jamie is usually a female name. Tawadros and Tadros are both transliterations of Old Bohairic. Theodoros is a transliteration of Greco-Bohairic. Theodore is the proper English name.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Christian is used in German as the formula 1 driver Christian Klein
    I didn't write Louis, but Lois, a British female name
    as for translations I answered in the other related thread.. I'm sorry, typing through mobile is hard work for me
    oujai
Sign In or Register to comment.