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Adam and Eve
Hello:
There is no way to understand the Bible without understanding the book of Genesis.
Genesis 1:28-- And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Were Adam and Eve celibate before the fall? Apparently yes,but why ! If I am not mistaken, Tradition holds they had lived in the garden of Eden for several years.So why haven't they reproduced during this time? What were they doing the whole day?
There is no way to understand the Bible without understanding the book of Genesis.
Genesis 1:28-- And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Were Adam and Eve celibate before the fall? Apparently yes,but why ! If I am not mistaken, Tradition holds they had lived in the garden of Eden for several years.So why haven't they reproduced during this time? What were they doing the whole day?
Comments
Thanks for your views.
If they had mated before the fall, why hadn't they produced children? Had they done that in their gracious state,they would have produced children of the incorruptable nature.In other words, children concieved before the fall would not inherit the original sin .Does that make sense? But we are told of Adams offsprings only after the fall, at which point they could see each other's nakedness
For example,in Genesis3:6-7 , it says :
"So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.."
The thing is how did they mate before the Fall, if they did not notice each others nakedness or physcial attraction ??
Hello:
There is no way to understand the Bible without understanding the book of Genesis.
Genesis 1:28-- And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
Were Adam and Eve celibate before the fall? Apparently yes,but why ! If I am not mistaken, Tradition holds they had lived in the garden of Eden for several years.So why haven't they reproduced during this time? What were they doing the whole day?
Hi Hez,
I think in trying to understand the Holy Bible we must first realize that it is full of mysterious happenings. Occurances we are asked to believe, even though we do not understand with our meager human minds. So, with that in mind; I would say about your question of Adam and Eve being fruitful and multiplying that it does not have to mean being fruitful as we know it or multiplying as we know it.
Our God is not a God of lust and carnality, so those commands could have just meant to tend His beautiful garden and make the plants and trees therein multiply and bear much pleasant fruit. Hving dominion over the birds and fish, meaning as God has dominion, yet is our humble servant in that He causes the sun and moon to shine for us,gives us oxygen to breathe, food to eat etc.
I've read the 'Lost and forgotten books of the Bible' and it states that Adam and Eve had a different body than that of the ones they gained after commiting sin. It says that they did not have a stomach as we all have now. Sin really changed them in a very big way. They gained organs and needs they did not have before sin.
I really like that story of Adam and Eve, I think it is the most beautiful love story ever.....the original 'Love Story'
Anyway I think in understanding Genesis or any Scripture we must be as innocent children, don't think of the Scriptures as written with carnality or lustfulness as mankind is; but it is Holy and Pure......something we mere mortals only can comprehend by much fasting and praying like our Desert fathers and mothers etc.
God bless u in your studies!
^Thanks for the reply. Later I will try to find relevant Patristic quotes. But to clarify, in the Orthodox Church we do not believe we inherit Adam's actual sin or guilt, rather only his corrupt nature and inclination towards sinfulness. We are actually having a discussion about that now.
Dear Severian,
Neither Orthodox nor Catholics believe that Adam's actual sin is inherited.
None of the Fathers has said this.
[quote author=Severian link=topic=13627.msg159012#msg159012 date=1345067571]
^Thanks for the reply. Later I will try to find relevant Patristic quotes. But to clarify, in the Orthodox Church we do not believe we inherit Adam's actual sin or guilt, rather only his corrupt nature and inclination towards sinfulness. We are actually having a discussion about that now.
Dear Severian,
Neither Orthodox nor Catholics believe that Adam's actual sin is inherited.
None of the Fathers has said this.
I would agree with this assessment, at least regarding the Orthodox. I cannot say the same about RCs, I do not know much about their Theology.
Why do u think we pray psalm 50 everytime we pray from the Agpeya??!! Every Sunday in Church??
Why do u think that even the holiest of our Saints considered 'themselves 'worthless sinners'?? "worms"??
Why do u think our unblemished and all Holy God suffered to go up on the cross and shed His precious blood for us?? So that we could be forgiven of sins we committ 'intentionally' and 'unintentionally'?? To go down to Hades and free those held captive up until that day; namely Adam and Eve, from the hold sin had on them??!!
If u do not believe this simple truth, then u r saying that God is a liar and u do not understand anything.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Matthew 7:13
God forgive us
If u do not believe we have inherited the sin of our first mother and father Adam and Eve, then u have missed the WHOLE point of our Orthodox worship!
Why do u think we pray psalm 50 everytime we pray from the Agpeya??!! Every Sunday in Church??
Why do u think that even the holiest of our Saints considered 'themselves 'worthless sinners'?? "worms"??
Why do u think our unblemished and all Holy God suffered to go up on the cross and shed His precious blood for us?? So that we could be forgiven of sins we committ 'intentionally' and 'unintentionally'?? To go down to Hades and free those held captive up until that day; namely Adam and Eve, from the hold sin had on them??!!
If u do not believe this simple truth, then u r saying that God is a liar and u do not understand anything.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Matthew 7:13
God forgive us
I will let the Fathers speak for themselves:
"As the best physicians always take great pains to discover the source of diseases, and go to the very fountain of the mischief, so doth the blessed Paul also. Hence after having said that we were justified, and having shown it from the Patriarch, and from the Spirit, and from the dying of Christ (for He would not have died unless He intended to justify), he next confirms from other sources also what he had at such length demonstrated. And he confirms his proposition from things opposite, that is, from death and sin. How, and in what way? He enquires whence death came in, and how it prevailed. How then did death come in and prevail? “Through the sin of one.” But what means, “for that all have sinned?” This; he having once fallen, even they that had not eaten of the tree did from him, all of them, become mortal."
-Saint John Chrysostom, On Romans 5:12
“No one is precluded from baptism and grace, ... [so] ought not and infant be forbidden, who, being newly born, has in no way way sinned, but only having contracted the contagion of death.”
-St. Cyprian of Carthage
"What has Adam’s guilt to do with us? Why are we held responsible for his sin when we were not even born when he committed it? Did not God say : “The parents will not die for the children, nor the children for parents, but the soul which had sinned, it shall die.” How then shall we defend this doctrine? The soul, I say, which had sinned, it shall die. We have become sinners because of Adam’s disobedience in the following manner.... After he fell into sin and surrendered to corruption, impure lusts invaded the nature of his flesh, and at the same time the evil law of our members was born. For our nature contracted the disease of sin because of the disobedience of one man, that is Adam, and thus many became sinners. This was not because they sinned along with Adam, because they did not then exist, but because they had the same nature as Adam, which fell under the law of sin. Thus, just as human nature acquired the weakness of corruption in Adam because of disobedience, and evil desires invaded it, so the same nature was later set free by Christ, who was obedient to God the Father and did not commit sin."
-Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Explanation of the Letter to the Romans: Migne PG 74, col 788-89 in: Romans By Gerald Lewis Bray, Thomas C. Oden pp 142-143
"The sin of those who engendered us, viz. the sin of Adam and Eve, is not naturally (kata phusin) mixed with our substance (ousia), as the evil and impious opinion of the Messalians, in other words the Manichees, claims, but because they (Adam and Eve) had lost the grace of immortality the judgment and the sentence reach down to us, when, following a natural disposition. We are born mortal insofar as [we are born] of mortal parents. but not sinners insofar as we are of sinful parents. For it is not true that sin is a nature (phusis) and that it naturally passes from parents to their children."
-Saint Severus of Antioch, Correspondence with Julian of Halicarnassus
[hr]
I guess these Fathers did not understand the simple truth and were all liars. Please try to be more magnanimous next time.
Pray for me
We all from our birth inherited the sinful nature as it is passed from generation to the next.
There is a difference between inheriting sinful nature and inheriting the actual sin itself that Adam committed.
We all from our birth inherited the sinful nature as it is passed from generation to the next.
Amen!
Stop with the mambo jumbo. your own posts by the fathers (if u understood them) agree with what I have said.....since the original sin we (mankind) have become mortal and subject to death, but through confession, repentance and the body and blood of Jesus we have hope to return to our holy forms and live in heaven, in paradise again.
Sin means just that sin, whether u want to say sinful nature or actual sin that Adam committed...it is the same.
God help us!!!
Sin means just that sin, whether u want to say sinful nature or actual sin that Adam committed...it is the same.
God help us!!!
i agree with Purity2. However, some want to deny the Original sin, so they find anything to say that the dogma does not exist and that it is a Catholic heresy. The way they do that is to say we did not inherit the Original sin without defining what they mean.
When pressed they answer the actual sin.
Severian,
Stop with the mambo jumbo. your own posts by the fathers (if u understood them) agree with what I have said.....since the original sin we (mankind) have become mortal and subject to death, but through confession, repentance and the body and blood of Jesus we have hope to return to our holy forms and live in heaven, in paradise again.
Sin means just that sin, whether u want to say sinful nature or actual sin that Adam committed...it is the same.
God help us!!!
I agree that we are subject to death and that we are mortal by virtue of Adam's sin and that it is through Christ's Incarnation and our participation in the mysteries of the Church that we return to our original state. What I am saying (and St. Severus agrees with me, btw) is that we are not directly responsible for the state we are in. IOW, I could not have prevented the corrupted state I was born into, but I hope to restore myself through God's grace despite my own sinfulness.
Sorry my tone seems rude and condescending, but I'm trying to pull u from fire! But my sources r very solid!! Namely the Agpeya! Our Holy Bible! Our Holy Liturgy!! Our Sacraments!!! Just about everything we r taught and believe as Orthodox Christians, COC, EOTC, etc.!
And it was not a question of 'who is responsible' the Devil is responsible of course!
And our only hope of restoration to God is by understanding His teachings so as not to continually corrupt ourselves with untruths. The truth sets us free and that is all I was trying to do.....set u free.
We all sin and fall short of Gods glory, even the most Saintly of us. That is why Christ came to give us the New Covenant. A Covenant of Love and Mercy, that we can be saved from the captivity of sin through Him and His Word.
And again Severian, I apologize if I seem harsh, but it is a very serious charge to manipulate Gods Word, which is what I felt u were doing, 'intentionally or unintentionally'.
Please forgive me a worthless sinner
Severian,
Sorry my tone seems rude and condescending, but I'm trying to pull u from fire! But my sources r very solid!! Namely the Agpeya! Our Holy Bible! Our Holy Liturgy!! Our Sacraments!!! Just about everything we r taught and believe as Orthodox Christians, COC, EOTC, etc.!
And it was not a question of 'who is responsible' the Devil is responsible of course!
And our only hope of restoration to God is by understanding His teachings so as not to continually corrupt ourselves with untruths. The truth sets us free and that is all I was trying to do.....set u free.
We all sin and fall short of Gods glory, even the most Saintly of us. That is why Christ came to give us the New Covenant. A Covenant of Love and Mercy, that we can be saved from the captivity of sin through Him and His Word.
And again Severian, I apologize if I seem harsh, but it is a very serious charge to manipulate Gods Word, which is what I felt u were doing, 'intentionally or unintentionally'.
Please forgive me a worthless sinner
Do not worry about it. I understand your concern and I appreciate it. I admire your zeal, unlike so many people in our Church who are so lackadaisical about our faith. But what do you think of what Saints Severus and Cyril said?
Please pray for my unworthy self,
Michael (My baptismal name)
Ok one thing to start, i am perfectly fine with Imikhail and Severian's statements that inherit a mortal and corruptible nature. This is in perfect congruence with the fathers.
But i would like to say that i reject the notion that we inherit the sin, this will only logically lead to the catholic belief in original guilt, which they DO believe in.
Dear Purity,
Where are you getting your teachings? Was this something someone taught you one day and you took it for granted and just simply made everything else around it (the agpeya, the Bible, etc) to fit your ideas? Because i will tell you right now, this teaching has its roots in augustinian theology which dominated the west but was relatively unheard of in the east until the 17th or so century. What you are saying is simply not the teaching of the fathers. What severian has so graciously done for you is to post relevant words from the fathers, if your teaching disagrees with their teachings then you fix your teachings not vice versa.
If we believe that we are sinful from birth, then we are sinners from birth. If we believe that we are dead from birth, then we are guilty from birth.
Why this concept is only Catholic? Ir is Orthodox and we pray it in every liturgy.
"There is a difference between inheriting sinful nature and inheriting the actual sin itself that Adam committed.
We all from our birth inherited the sinful nature as it is passed from generation to the next."
And i agree with the above statement which you made. We are not sinful from birth. No child has ever committed a wrong that they are guilty of. You may perhaps find relevant the quote from our very reverend father Peter where he stated this in the original sin topic discussion reply #7;
"I was recently reading a text by Gregory of Nyssa called 'Concerning Infants Who Have Died Prematurely' in which he says many things, but his position is essentially...
But the person who shuns purity of virtue and fosters an incurable illness of ignorance through deceptive pleasures becomes estranged from his true nature and does not share in life. One the other hand, a simple infant who is not ill with regard to the soul's eyes participates in the light; he does not require cleansing because his soul has been healthy from birth." Bold type is the statement of St. Gregory of Nyssa.
While the fathers do agree that we suffer from birth and we have contracted the 'contagion of death', there is a real sense that we also follow in the footsteps of Adam and Eve by committing our own transgressions and turning our own backs on God. To say that a child is doomed from birth is to assert that an unbaptized child will go to hell, and this is blatantly a catholic teaching. This is also why they have had to begin to assert an idea of a 'limbo'.
Pray for me
Imikhail, this concept is logically incoherent with your previous position where you stated,
To say that a child is doomed from birth is to assert that an unbaptized child will go to hell
The bible does teach that there is no salvation without Baptism. Even though the infants did not commit any sin, without baptism they may not attain salvation.
In addition, baptism is for the remission of sins and the Church baptizes the infants and communes them unto the remission of sins.
The psalmist says: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Psalm 50:5
He furthers says: "we have gone astray from the womb, we err from our birth" Psalm 58:4
St Paul says: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—" Romans 5:12
St Athanasius writes "For as when Adam had transgressed, his sin reached unto all men ...." Four Discourses against the Arians, I, 12.
St Cyril explains: "not because they sinned along with Adam, for they did not then exist, but because they had the same nature as Adam, which fell under the law of sin” Thomas Oden New Testament VI pp. 141-142
The liturgical prayers are full of the same idea.
Sin is not limited to just one's own action but to his being as a whole. We are born in the sinful nature that Adam reached through his disobedience. We inherited this sinful nature.
I agree that the infants did not commit any sin of their own but they are sinners on account of their father Adam's disobedience.
Thus we must not limit the concept of sin to just the actual personal sin.
Hope this clears the issue.
Again i will quote our very reverend Fr. Peter's wise words in the discussion pertaining to original sin,
"Baptism renews our human nature and unites us with Christ, and so we baptise a sinless infant so that it might grow up with the benefits of living with God and in God. Yet the unborn infant and the new born infant has committed no sin and will not be judged by God for any sin. He is without the grace of new life which is given in baptism, yet we may be sure that God will be merciful towards all who he calls to himself in this state of innocence.
It is as if your great-grandfather had been a wealthy landowner with an income of millions. Yet perhaps he began to gamble and spent it all. You would be born in poverty, yet you would not be a gambler. You would be born facing the consequences of your forefathers sin but you would not be guilty of any of his sins. You might say that it was unfair that you could not have his millions because it was not your fault they were lost - but they now belong to someone else and you have no claim on them at all."
We are not born sinners, we are born OF sinful people and therefore we inherit the condition they have passed onto us.
Yes the Bible does teach that there is no salvation outside of baptism but what i am saying is this. It is logically incoherent to state that we dont inherit Adam and Eve's sin BUT that we are born sinners.
Again i will quote our very reverend Fr. Peter's wise words in the discussion pertaining to original sin,
[b]
"Baptism renews our human nature and unites us with Christ, and so we baptise a sinless infant
This is where I see a misunderstanding of baptism.
Baptism washes the sins in addition to renewing the nature.
To say that a baby is born sinless is against what the Scriptures teach and what the Church prays. The verses I posted clearly teach that the a baby is not sinless.
Yes, it is sinless of personal sins but not the sinful nature. Having a sinful nature is a sin.
One can be baptized yet living a sinful life, baptism won't be of any benefit. One is living a righteous life with no baptism, righteousness won't benefit him.
NO father i have seen would claim that we are born sinners.
No it doesnt, your understanding dictates that. When you put yourself at odds with the opinions of the fathers, and a well learned modern father of ours, Fr. Peter, who pray the same liturgies as you and yet never interpreted things the same way as you.
NO father i have seen would claim that we are born sinners.
The verses I provided do, the fathers quotations I posted as well as the liturgical prayers.
If infants are born sinners, and not simply, as some state here, as having been born free of sin but with a sinful nature, then I pose a question: Was Christ born a sinner?
Childoforthodoxy
Rather than elaborating in great depth as to what the Fathers believe in terms of this issue (which is of great benefit in general, though I don't know how one or another group on these forums will receive them), I will ask a simple question and then continue to maintain my silent observations of these forums.
If infants are born sinners, and not simply, as some state here, as having been born free of sin but with a sinful nature, then I pose a question: Was Christ born a sinner?
Childoforthodoxy
Christ's birth was different in many aspects:
1 - The seed That entered the Virgin's womb was not human, but was the Son Himself. Hypostatic union between the Son and the Virgin took place so that the Son may take flesh from her.
2 - before this Hypostatic union, the Holy Spirit filled and purified the Virgin so that the flesh (human nature) the Son took was free of sin.
3 - St Mary was a virgin before her pregnancy and after her deliver of the Son; Miraculous birth.
This is how Baby Jesus avoided the ancestral sin.
-Saint Severus of Antioch
"We are born mortal insofar as [we are born] of mortal parents, but not sinners insofar as we are of sinful parents. For it is not true that sin is a nature (phusis) and that it naturally passes from parents to their children."
-Saint Severus of Antioch
I have already explained that this quote is out of context in the Original Sin thread.
If this quote is taken as is, which many posters here do without understanding the whole subject, then we make St Sawiros contradict the liturgical prayers, other fathers and the Scripture itself.
It is very dangerous to take a Father's quote without its context. This is exactly what the non Orthodox do with the Scripture; choosing any verse to support a particular position.
Thank you for your patience.