[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13549.msg158410#msg158410 date=1343931400] I certainly consider St Isaac the Syrian and so does HG Abba Daniel of St Shenouda monastery in AU.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13549.msg158411#msg158411 date=1343932670] And so does SUSCOPTS and LACOPTS and of course Pope St Kyrillos of blessed memory.
From another thread:
When the late Pope Kyrillos VI was asked what his favourite spiritual reading was, he replied that he found no greater fulfillment than in the works of St Isaac the Syrian. After having read a fair bit of St Isaac and the little of Pope Kyrillos that has been translated into english it became clear that the late Patriarch's words exuded St Isaac's spirituality and that his personal experience of the Divine remarkably paralleled that of St Isaac.
If St Isaac's spiritual teachings served not only as an authoritative basis of the late Pope Kyrillos' spiritual contemplations, but furthermore served to influence a life as remarkable and saintly as that of Pope Kyrillos, then that's sufficient confirmation of his Sainthood as far as I'm concerned.
I'm concerned were this leaves us. If we remove a saint from our church who is also a saint from another church then this is not an act of peace. Our Pope sought peace and I am not comfortable that he would want other fathers remove a link between our churches.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158406#msg158406 date=1343929280] Through his Arian belief and Arian belief, Constantine chose not to be part of that Tree which is Christ.
King Constantine is a Saint in the Armenian Orthodox Church. And we are most definitely in communion with them.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13549.msg158411#msg158411 date=1343932670] And so does SUSCOPTS and LACOPTS and of course Pope St Kyrillos of blessed memory.
In what manner do they consider him a saint? Do they recite him in the congregation of the saints?
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158414#msg158414 date=1343933709] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158406#msg158406 date=1343929280] Through his Arian belief and Arian belief, Constantine chose not to be part of that Tree which is Christ.
King Constantine is a Saint in the Armenian Orthodox Church. And we are most definitely in communion with them.
There is a difference between quoting an author and considering him a saint. Chalcedonian authors might have written wonderful spiritual works and they certainly did.
However, that does not mean that they are in the diptych, just because we quote them.
Quoting Origen, Turtellian does not make them saints in the Church.
Sainthood is not regional. It is not up the LACOPTS or the SUSCOPTS or one monk to decide who is a saint and who is not.
Rather, sainthood is determined by the Church primarily on the basis of the right faith.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158417#msg158417 date=1343944824] I started by saying that he will be removed. Yes, currently he is a saint because he was added erroneously.
He is a Saint only "currently"?? Please define "currently"...and he was added 'erronesoulsy'?? what does that mean?? Are you saying no one noticed the error sofar?? When you say he will be removed, are you predicting the future like a soothsayer or are you privy to an inside information of the COC? If I am wrong in my understanding, do you have a credible source that proves your claim that Emperor Constantine will be removed from the list of Saints in the near,distant future or whenever?
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=13549.msg158420#msg158420 date=1343949137] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158417#msg158417 date=1343944824] I started by saying that he will be removed. Yes, currently he is a saint because he was added erroneously.
He is a Saint only "currently"?? Please define "currently"...and he was added 'erronesoulsy'?? what does that mean?? Are you saying no one noticed the error sofar?? When you say he will be removed, are you predicting the future like a soothsayer or are you privy to an inside information of the COC? If I am wrong in my understanding, do you have a credible source that proves your claim that Emperor Constantine will be removed from the list of Saints in the near,distant future or whenever?
Calm down Ezekiel ....
If you have read my posts, you would have noticed that I gave a scholar, Abouna Shenouda Maher, who is involved in the matter. You can ask him.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13549.msg158419#msg158419 date=1343947093] They all call him a saint. Not all saints are in the Coptic calendar. But they are still saints.
Is he an official saint in the Oriental Orthodox Church? The answer is No.
How can a Chalcedonian be a saint in the Oriental Church without removing the anathemas?
People can go around saying that he is a saint or putting "St." in front of the name. But that doe not make him a saint in the dyptich.
I am not picking on Isaac the Syrian or Constantine. The issue is not the sainthood of certain people but rather how the right faith is of utmost importance to belong to the one family of Christ which is the Church.
As some have already indicated that as long as a person is good and had done good works, and believes in some form of Christianity, then he is accepted. This issue is at the heart of the dogma of salvation and the rules our Lord has put for us to attain it.
It is of utmost importance to belong to the one family of Christ, but the way you have it like one apostle accepting him and another apostle excommunicating him. How is that one family?Other churches mentioned are grafted onto the same tree in Christ. So if we excommunicate him for our apostle then what of another apostle who knows that Christ is in a saint by the works he has done for Christ?The authority Christ gave them isn't one to be argued against each other but directed towards Christ in that peace is found because of God's love.
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=13549.msg158423#msg158423 date=1343957607] It is of utmost importance to belong to the one family of Christ, but the way you have it like one apostle accepting him and another apostle excommunicating him. How is that one family?Other churches mentioned are grafted onto the same tree in Christ. So if we excommunicate him for our apostle then what of another apostle who knows that Christ is in a saint by the works he has done for Christ?The authority Christ gave them isn't one to be argued against each other but directed towards Christ in that peace is found because of God's love.
You are certainly right Joshuaa and that is the heart of the differences between the different denominations. There is only one truth of the faith that is delivered by the apostles.
We believe that we hold that true faith; the Oriental Orthodox Churches.
But you are having one apostles road to salvation less than another and possibly not the true road. I think we are the true bride by virtue of being the best we can be in understanding God's nature and being on the path he has for us and the beauty of our church, but to deny other parts of his church because we deem them lesser, and in doing so deny a saint we both have is not the love Christ had for all his apostles.
But you are having one apostles road to salvation less than another and possibly not the true road. I think we are the true bride by virtue of being the best we can be in understanding God's nature and being on the path he has for us and the beauty of our church, but to deny other parts of his church because we deem them lesser, and in doing so deny a saint we both have is not the love Christ had for all his apostles.
We do not deem lesser. It is not a matter of who is better.
It is all about who has the correct faith? Who truly is Christ's bride?
Certainly, Christ has one bride not several and He left her the true faith through which individuals become His bride. There is only one way that is Christ for he said: "I am the Way (not ways)" Any other way than what Christ specified is the wrong way.
Back to Constantine. He could not reach Christ through Arius for Arius broke himself off the Church and chose for himself a different way than that what Christ left the Church.
Those who chose to follow Arius, unfortunately, followed the wrong way.
Now if the Byzantines chose to call the followers of Arius saints, then I am afraid they are on the wrong way.
Our Lord said: "Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven" Matthew 10:33
Arius did deny Christ and so all those who followed him.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158422#msg158422 date=1343951126] Is he an official saint in the Oriental Orthodox Church? The answer is No.
How can a Chalcedonian be a saint in the Oriental Church without removing the anathemas?
People can go around saying that he is a saint or putting "St." in front of the name. But that doe not make him a saint in the dyptich.
But is he a Saint in the Universal Orthodox Church? The answer is Yes.
But you do not believe in a Universal Orthodox Church...do you.
And this is exactly what your problem is.
The central thesis of all your rhetoric in the most recent threads comes down to this:
The Eastern Orthodox Church has no grace or valid sacraments, and is completely and utterly heterodox.
This is why you won't accept any of these Saints in your personal calendar. Because they do not confine to your self-limited and narrow scope of view of what Orthodoxy is.
This is what the difference between us really comes down to.
You don't believe that the Eastern Orthodox are indeed Orthodox...Even though our Holy Synod, and every single Oriental Orthodox Sister Church has declared them to be soundly Orthodox.
Not only does your opposition go against your own father H.H. Pope Shenouda III, it goes against almost every Oriental Orthodox Hierarch alive today.
This includes the scholarly and beloved Tasbeha.org member, Fr. Peter Farrington, who tirelessly works day and night towards a peaceful re-communion between these two families of Orthodoxy.
People like H.H. Pope Shenouda III and Fr. Peter Farrington take the view that both families are presently Orthodox. And this is what the Oriental Orthodox Church has unanimously declared, in unison of thought, time and time again.
But above all, here is why I will not believe your perspective:
You try to divide, and not to unite.
H.H. Pope Shenouda III was a champion at uniting people. His Holiness was able to see through human deficiencies and solve theological disputes and problems. And most importantly, His Holiness was able to accomplish all of this without compromising his own Orthodox Faith when speaking with the Eastern Orthodox. And he was easily able to declare them Orthodox as well.
You on the other hand, take the opposite extreme.
I'll tell you something, you're rigidity is not Orthodox...its pure stubbornness.
Because you believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church is heretical NOW is the reason you are able to hold on to such...unorthodox views:
-You destroy the Dormition and Resurrection of your Mother St. Mary the Theotokos.
-You spit in the face of your Father H.H. Pope Shenouda's MONUMENTAL Ecumenical efforts with the Eastern Orthodox.
-You deny any Sainthood to holy men and women that happened to be born after the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D.
-You deny the Sainthood of the Emperor Constantine.
-You deny the Sainthood of the most holy St. Isaac of Syria. Of whom the world was not worthy of...
ALL OF THIS...is truly against what our Holy Synod and our Oriental Orthodox Church believes.
OUR ORIENTAL ORTHODOX CHURCH HAS UNIVERSALLY AND OFFICIALLY DECLARED THAT THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH IS PRESENTLY ORTHODOX
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158422#msg158422 date=1343951126] I am not picking on Isaac the Syrian or Constantine. The issue is not the sainthood of certain people but rather how the right faith is of utmost importance to belong to the one family of Christ which is the Church.
But what if, hypothetically speaking, this Right Faith was already determined to be the same?
Do you not believe our Saintly Patriarch H.H. Pope Shenouda III when he says the following:
"...Both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition, though they have used Christological terms in different ways. It is this common faith and continuous loyalty to the Apostolic Tradition that should be the basis for our unity and communion." (#9 of the Second Agreed Statement - 1990)
It boggles my mind that you can blatantly and explicitly oppose one of the most revered and honored human beings to ever walk upon the face of God's green Earth...and do it in the name of some twisted perception of Orthodoxy.
What you are promoting is not true Orthodoxy. And I thank God that I have not heard of any of our present Hierarchs expressing views that say that the Eastern Orthodox are currently schismatics.
Unofortunately, there is nothing called the Universal Orthodox Church. I truly wish there was. There is the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Church.
Both are not in communion as of yet. They do not acknowledge our saints and we do not acknowledge theirs ( as of the year 451).
So, Isaac the Syrian is not a saint in the Oriental Orthodox Church ... Neither is Constantine.
Isaac the Syrian belongs to the Chalcedonians, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and Constantine was a heretic.
Let me also address the resurrection and inheritance of the Holy Virgin Mary to the Kingdom of heaven. This idea is a heresy that the Oriental Church does not believe in. It goes against the scripture, the liturgical prayers of the COC as well as her liturgical readings and feasts. This issue was addressed in another thread: Differences between Coptic and Catholic Church.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158431#msg158431 date=1343968560] Unofortunately, there is nothing called the Universal Orthodox Church. I truly wish there was.
Forgive me, but I don't think your statement holds much weight. For if your truly wanted there to be a Universal Orthodox Church, you would be working towards achieving one. And the clearest path for that right now is the path of lifting the anathemas the right way and uniting. This is the path which our Oriental Orthodox Church has chosen to take, and it is truly the most Christian.
Instead, you pigeon-hole yourself into this very overly restrictive and exclusive view that is foreign to the actual Priests and Bishops of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. This is what is I find odd...you're going against what almost all your Oriental Orthodox hierarchy preach.
Your view is that The Eastern Orthodox Church has no grace or valid sacraments, and is completely and utterly heterodox. Correct?
Well, this is the logical conclusion of your perspective:
-H.H. Pope Shenouda III, is wrong. -Fr. Peter Farrington is wrong. -The Coptic Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong. -The Armenian Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong. -The Ethiopian Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong. -The Eritrean Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong. -The Syrian Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong. -The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong. -Almost every Oriental Orthodox Hierarch is wrong.
So basically, the entire Oriental Orthodox Communion is dead wrong in their universal recognition that the Eastern Orthodox are indeed Orthodox.
The only one that would be correct is you. The layman known as imikhail on Tasbeha.org.
Are we to deny the Catholic Church their Apostle as well? We can say we have been true but we can't deny others their right to believe in their salvation.
You are entitled to your conclusions and to the way you arrived to them.
I must say that the relationship between the Eastern and the Oriental has not been formalized as of yet. The Oriental Church do not accept the Eastern followers on an "as is" basis.
We Chrismate them with the Holy Myron first before they become members of the Church receiving her sacraments.
This issue has been addressed on a different thread.
Also, we cannot recognize their saints as saints within the Oriental Church till the anathemas are removed.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955] I must say that the relationship between the Eastern and the Oriental has not been formalized as of yet.
Do you want it to be?
Why not pursue peace as our Fathers have? Isn't reconciliation a virtue? Especially when it is being handled in the most correct and official way with nothing being compromised on our part? Isn't this the best case scenario?
Isn't this what Our Lord would want? "...That they all may be one." (John 17:21)
"Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it." (Psalm 34:14)
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955] The Oriental Church do not accept the Eastern followers on an "as is" basis.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955] We Chrismate them with the Holy Myron first before they become members of the Church receiving her sacraments.
I believe Fr. Peter Farrington is currently writing a paper on that. So, I will leave that discussion alone.
Fr. Peter has expressed that it is not correct to chrismate Eastern Orthodox members, since they are considered Orthodox by the Oriental Orthodox, and has not been done that way in centuries past.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955] Also, we cannot recognize their saints as saints within the Oriental Church till the anathemas are removed.
Forgive me if I sound harsh, but I do not believe you want the anathemas removed...at all.
For some puzzling reason, you want the anathemas to stick.
You want to be the only one that is correct. And this is not the case.
You do not believe that the Sun can be bright and round at the same time.
I have a few questions for you. It will help me understand your perspective a bit:
1. If you believe your position is correct, then the Oriental Orthodox Church has been in GRAVE error for centuries. If you believe that the ENTIRE Oriental Orthodox Communion is completely wrong in their conclusions about the Eastern Orthodox, WHY DO YOU DEFEND THEM SO MUCH?
2. I named a few Oriental Orthodox Synods and highly regarded Oriental Orthodox theologians who claim that your view is wrong and unacceptable. Please name a few current Synods, Bishops, Priests, Deacons or any other Oriental Orthodox Hierarchs that espouse your view that: The Eastern Orthodox Church has no grace or valid sacraments, and is completely and utterly heterodox.
3. Do you believe our Saintly Patriarch H.H. Pope Shenouda III and all six (6) Oriental Orthodox Synods when they unanimously declare the following:
"...Both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition, though they have used Christological terms in different ways. It is this common faith and continuous loyalty to the Apostolic Tradition that should be the basis for our unity and communion." (#9 of the Second Agreed Statement - 1990)
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158438#msg158438 date=1344013598] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955] I must say that the relationship between the Eastern and the Oriental has not been formalized as of yet.
Do you want it to be?
What difference does that make? What value does what I want would add or subtract from what we are discussing?
Faith is not a matter of personal feelings.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955] The Oriental Church do not accept the Eastern followers on an "as is" basis.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955] We Chrismate them with the Holy Myron first before they become members of the Church receiving her sacraments.
I believe Fr. Peter Farrington is currently writing a paper on that. So, I will leave that discussion alone.
Fr. Peter has expressed that it is not correct to chrismate Eastern Orthodox members, since they are considered Orthodox by the Oriental Orthodox, and has not been done that way in centuries past.
I am waiting eagerly for this research.
However, with all due respect to Father Peter, he is not the Church synod. I am glad that he is doing the research and hopefully it would move things in the positive direction.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955] Also, we cannot recognize their saints as saints within the Oriental Church till the anathemas are removed.
Forgive me if I sound harsh, but I do not believe you want the anathemas removed...at all.
For some puzzling reason, you want the anathemas to stick.
You want to be the only one that is correct. And this is not the case.
You do not believe that the Sun can be bright and round at the same time.
I am not going to comment on personal material. I will leave you to your conclusions and your opinions.
...Both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition, though they have used Christological terms in different ways. It is this common faith and continuous loyalty to the Apostolic Tradition that should be the basis for our unity and communion." (#9 of the Second Agreed Statement - 1990)
No formal agreement has been made. The Oriental side signed the agreement. The Eastern did not and withdrew their agreement.
That is why the anathemas are still present.
That is why we Chrismate the Eastern followers who seek to become Oriental.
That is why we do not recognize their saints and they do not recognize ours.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158441#msg158441 date=1344015789] No formal agreement has been made. The Oriental side signed the agreement. The Eastern did not and withdrew their agreement.
The Eastern Orthodox may have withdrawn at certain points, but WE did not. And WE, from OUR perspective, UNIVERSALLY and UNANIMOUSLY consider them presently Orthodox.
And since WE consider them Orthodox, we are able to venerate Saints that are in another Orthodox Church's calendar. WE have agreed, but they, as a whole, have not.
And God willing, one day they will be able to view us as being equally and completely Orthodox as well.
I can assure you that when that day comes, it will not be due to the perspective which you choose to take. A perspective rooted in disunity, extremism and ethnocentrism.
Be sure of this: OUR ORIENTAL ORTHODOX CHURCH HAS UNIVERSALLY AND OFFICIALLY DECLARED THAT THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH IS PRESENTLY ORTHODOX
We aren't united yet. But we're getting there.
And in the midst of all the incredible progress made by your own Oriental Orthodox Fathers, you choose to utterly defecate upon their divinely-inspired work; instead choosing to discard unity and favor polemical division instead...based entirely on your sole perception.
You cannot even name a current Oriental Orthodox hierarch that believes in your view that The Eastern Orthodox Church has no grace or valid sacraments, and is completely and utterly heterodox.
This...is sad.
I leave you with a letter I came across from Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople. This letter is a good summary of what the most dignified and theologically equipped Hierarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Church have to say about the Oriental Orthodox Church:
[center]Address to Patriarch Paul of Ethiopia[/center]
The work of the Joint Theological Commission has already demonstrated through common theological statements (1989 and 1990) that there is a complete agreement between us on the Christological dogma as well as the faith of the early church transmitted by the Apostles. The existing differences concerning the terminology, as well as the understandable differences regarding ecclesiastical customs emerging from the long period of separation, are possible to heal since they do not touch the depth of apostolic tradition. Our experience these days of the spiritual reality of the Divine Liturgy encourages us to continue our common way towards the common cup. It is not a way without difficulties, but is offered by Our Lord himself, the founder of the Church, to the apostles and their successors in the Church: “I do not pray for these only, but also those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, even as you Father are in me and I in you, that they may also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me” (John 17:20-21).
Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople January 18, 1995 Episkepsis #15, 28.2
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158421#msg158421 date=1343951029] [quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=13549.msg158420#msg158420 date=1343949137] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158417#msg158417 date=1343944824] I started by saying that he will be removed. Yes, currently he is a saint because he was added erroneously.
He is a Saint only "currently"?? Please define "currently"...and he was added 'erronesoulsy'?? what does that mean?? Are you saying no one noticed the error sofar?? When you say he will be removed, are you predicting the future like a soothsayer or are you privy to an inside information of the COC? If I am wrong in my understanding, do you have a credible source that proves your claim that Emperor Constantine will be removed from the list of Saints in the near,distant future or whenever?
Calm down Ezekiel ....
If you have read my posts, you would have noticed that I gave a scholar, Abouna Shenouda Maher, who is involved in the matter. You can ask him.
Imikahail my problem is with your arguments and contradictions ,not with you.
When you claim, King Constanine was added erraneously, you are almost saying that some silly guy like me added him as a Saint and the church authority did not realise it.. but that is ,of course, not the case. If he was added, then he was added by the church and you seem to agree with that, since few posts above you are saying:
Rather, sainthood is determined by the Church primarily on the basis of the right faith
In that case, how come the church had added him by mistake and did not realise the error until today? what were thy thinking? How do you explain this??
I asked you to provide me evidence issued by the church that the king is in the process of being removed from the list. All you did was give me the name of one person. You have not even given any sources where he had argued such things.
Nevertheless, you have set the rules earlier and said the following:
It is not up the LACOPTS or the SUSCOPTS or one monk to decide who is a saint and who is not.
I agree ,but your own rule should apply to you as well.So why should you think you can give us the name of a monk or priest o make your point, but reject when others do the same??
I ask you you to give me sources from the church synod , to use your very own word (since Abouna Maher, like Fr Peter is not the church synod) that proves your claim that Emperor Constanine will soon be removed from the list of Sainthood.
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
What was the error? That he was baptized Orthodox by the Pope of Rome.
Since we realized that this is false information and he was in fact Arian, was baptized Arian, and died Arian. He cannot be accepted as a saint.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158450#msg158450 date=1344027233] May be this will make it clear,
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
Ok,thanks..so strange that the COC realised the error after many many centuries. However, where does it say that the "the Church knows about the error, he will be removed"..
In other words,
"I ask you you to give me sources from the church synod , to use your very own word (Remember Abouna Maher, like Fr Peter is not the church synod) that proves your claim that Emperor Constanine will soon be removed from the list of Sainthood."
I will make it easier.If you have no such sources,STATE SO and we move on!!
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158450#msg158450 date=1344027233] May be this will make it clear,
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
What was the error? That he was baptized Orthodox by the Pope of Rome.
The Byzantines themselves don't even believe this!
Eusebius of Caesarea's History even mentions that King Constantine was baptized on his deathbed.
[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=13549.msg158451#msg158451 date=1344027901] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158450#msg158450 date=1344027233] May be this will make it clear,
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
Ok,thanks..so strange that the COC realised the error after many many centuries. However, where does it say that the "the Church knows about the error, he will be removed"..
In other words,
"I ask you you to give me sources from the church synod , to use your very own word (Remember Abouna Maher, like Fr Peter is not the church synod) that proves your claim that Emperor Constanine will soon be removed from the list of Sainthood."
I will make it easier.If you have no such sources,STATE SO and we move on!!
I have stated the source many times. You chose to ignore it.
Rest assured that Constantine will be removed from the COC dyptich for his Arianism belief.
[quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=13549.msg158453#msg158453 date=1344028365] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158450#msg158450 date=1344027233] May be this will make it clear,
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
What was the error? That he was baptized Orthodox by the Pope of Rome.
The Byzantines themselves don't even believe this!
Eusebius of Caesarea's History even mentions that King Constantine was baptized on his deathbed.
✞✞✞
Their belief does not change historical facts.
The fact is that Constantine was baptized by an Arian bishop and thus we cannot accept his sainthood.
Comments
I certainly consider St Isaac the Syrian and so does HG Abba Daniel of St Shenouda monastery in AU.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=13549.msg158411#msg158411 date=1343932670]
And so does SUSCOPTS and LACOPTS and of course Pope St Kyrillos of blessed memory.
From another thread:
When the late Pope Kyrillos VI was asked what his favourite spiritual reading was, he replied that he found no greater fulfillment than in the works of St Isaac the Syrian. After having read a fair bit of St Isaac and the little of Pope Kyrillos that has been translated into english it became clear that the late Patriarch's words exuded St Isaac's spirituality and that his personal experience of the Divine remarkably paralleled that of St Isaac.
If St Isaac's spiritual teachings served not only as an authoritative basis of the late Pope Kyrillos' spiritual contemplations, but furthermore served to influence a life as remarkable and saintly as that of Pope Kyrillos, then that's sufficient confirmation of his Sainthood as far as I'm concerned.
✞✞✞
Through his Arian belief and Arian belief, Constantine chose not to be part of that Tree which is Christ.
King Constantine is a Saint in the Armenian Orthodox Church. And we are most definitely in communion with them.
Are they wrong as well?
http://www.armenianchurch-ed.net/wpblog/2011/07/sts-constantine-the-emperor-and-his-mother-helena/
✞✞✞
And so does SUSCOPTS and LACOPTS and of course Pope St Kyrillos of blessed memory.
In what manner do they consider him a saint? Do they recite him in the congregation of the saints?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158406#msg158406 date=1343929280]
Through his Arian belief and Arian belief, Constantine chose not to be part of that Tree which is Christ.
King Constantine is a Saint in the Armenian Orthodox Church. And we are most definitely in communion with them.
Are they wrong as well?
http://www.armenianchurch-ed.net/wpblog/2011/07/sts-constantine-the-emperor-and-his-mother-helena/
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I started by saying that he will be removed. Yes, currently he is a saint because he was added erroneously.
However, that does not mean that they are in the diptych, just because we quote them.
Quoting Origen, Turtellian does not make them saints in the Church.
Sainthood is not regional. It is not up the LACOPTS or the SUSCOPTS or one monk to decide who is a saint and who is not.
Rather, sainthood is determined by the Church primarily on the basis of the right faith.
I started by saying that he will be removed. Yes, currently he is a saint because he was added erroneously.
He is a Saint only "currently"?? Please define "currently"...and he was added 'erronesoulsy'?? what does that mean?? Are you saying no one noticed the error sofar?? When you say he will be removed, are you predicting the future like a soothsayer or are you privy to an inside information of the COC? If I am wrong in my understanding, do you have a credible source that proves your claim that Emperor Constantine will be removed from the list of Saints in the near,distant future or whenever?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158417#msg158417 date=1343944824]
I started by saying that he will be removed. Yes, currently he is a saint because he was added erroneously.
He is a Saint only "currently"?? Please define "currently"...and he was added 'erronesoulsy'?? what does that mean?? Are you saying no one noticed the error sofar?? When you say he will be removed, are you predicting the future like a soothsayer or are you privy to an inside information of the COC? If I am wrong in my understanding, do you have a credible source that proves your claim that Emperor Constantine will be removed from the list of Saints in the near,distant future or whenever?
Calm down Ezekiel ....
If you have read my posts, you would have noticed that I gave a scholar, Abouna Shenouda Maher, who is involved in the matter. You can ask him.
They all call him a saint. Not all saints are in the Coptic calendar. But they are still saints.
Is he an official saint in the Oriental Orthodox Church? The answer is No.
How can a Chalcedonian be a saint in the Oriental Church without removing the anathemas?
People can go around saying that he is a saint or putting "St." in front of the name. But that doe not make him a saint in the dyptich.
I am not picking on Isaac the Syrian or Constantine. The issue is not the sainthood of certain people but rather how the right faith is of utmost importance to belong to the one family of Christ which is the Church.
As some have already indicated that as long as a person is good and had done good works, and believes in some form of Christianity, then he is accepted. This issue is at the heart of the dogma of salvation and the rules our Lord has put for us to attain it.
It is of utmost importance to belong to the one family of Christ, but the way you have it like one apostle accepting him and another apostle excommunicating him. How is that one family?Other churches mentioned are grafted onto the same tree in Christ. So if we excommunicate him for our apostle then what of another apostle who knows that Christ is in a saint by the works he has done for Christ?The authority Christ gave them isn't one to be argued against each other but directed towards Christ in that peace is found because of God's love.
You are certainly right Joshuaa and that is the heart of the differences between the different denominations. There is only one truth of the faith that is delivered by the apostles.
We believe that we hold that true faith; the Oriental Orthodox Churches.
But you are having one apostles road to salvation less than another and possibly not the true road. I think we are the true bride by virtue of being the best we can be in understanding God's nature and being on the path he has for us and the beauty of our church, but to deny other parts of his church because we deem them lesser, and in doing so deny a saint we both have is not the love Christ had for all his apostles.
But you are having one apostles road to salvation less than another and possibly not the true road. I think we are the true bride by virtue of being the best we can be in understanding God's nature and being on the path he has for us and the beauty of our church, but to deny other parts of his church because we deem them lesser, and in doing so deny a saint we both have is not the love Christ had for all his apostles.
We do not deem lesser. It is not a matter of who is better.
It is all about who has the correct faith? Who truly is Christ's bride?
Certainly, Christ has one bride not several and He left her the true faith through which individuals become His bride. There is only one way that is Christ for he said: "I am the Way (not ways)" Any other way than what Christ specified is the wrong way.
Back to Constantine. He could not reach Christ through Arius for Arius broke himself off the Church and chose for himself a different way than that what Christ left the Church.
Those who chose to follow Arius, unfortunately, followed the wrong way.
Now if the Byzantines chose to call the followers of Arius saints, then I am afraid they are on the wrong way.
Our Lord said: "Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven" Matthew 10:33
Arius did deny Christ and so all those who followed him.
Is he an official saint in the Oriental Orthodox Church? The answer is No.
How can a Chalcedonian be a saint in the Oriental Church without removing the anathemas?
People can go around saying that he is a saint or putting "St." in front of the name. But that doe not make him a saint in the dyptich.
But is he a Saint in the Universal Orthodox Church? The answer is Yes.
But you do not believe in a Universal Orthodox Church...do you.
And this is exactly what your problem is.
The central thesis of all your rhetoric in the most recent threads comes down to this:
The Eastern Orthodox Church has no grace or valid sacraments, and is completely and utterly heterodox.
This is why you won't accept any of these Saints in your personal calendar. Because they do not confine to your self-limited and narrow scope of view of what Orthodoxy is.
This is what the difference between us really comes down to.
You don't believe that the Eastern Orthodox are indeed Orthodox...Even though our Holy Synod, and every single Oriental Orthodox Sister Church has declared them to be soundly Orthodox.
Not only does your opposition go against your own father H.H. Pope Shenouda III, it goes against almost every Oriental Orthodox Hierarch alive today.
This includes the scholarly and beloved Tasbeha.org member, Fr. Peter Farrington, who tirelessly works day and night towards a peaceful re-communion between these two families of Orthodoxy.
People like H.H. Pope Shenouda III and Fr. Peter Farrington take the view that both families are presently Orthodox. And this is what the Oriental Orthodox Church has unanimously declared, in unison of thought, time and time again.
But above all, here is why I will not believe your perspective:
You try to divide, and not to unite.
H.H. Pope Shenouda III was a champion at uniting people. His Holiness was able to see through human deficiencies and solve theological disputes and problems. And most importantly, His Holiness was able to accomplish all of this without compromising his own Orthodox Faith when speaking with the Eastern Orthodox. And he was easily able to declare them Orthodox as well.
You on the other hand, take the opposite extreme.
I'll tell you something, you're rigidity is not Orthodox...its pure stubbornness.
Because you believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church is heretical NOW is the reason you are able to hold on to such...unorthodox views:
-You destroy the Dormition and Resurrection of your Mother St. Mary the Theotokos.
-You spit in the face of your Father H.H. Pope Shenouda's MONUMENTAL Ecumenical efforts with the Eastern Orthodox.
-You deny any Sainthood to holy men and women that happened to be born after the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D.
-You deny the Sainthood of the Emperor Constantine.
-You deny the Sainthood of the most holy St. Isaac of Syria. Of whom the world was not worthy of...
ALL OF THIS...is truly against what our Holy Synod and our Oriental Orthodox Church believes.
OUR ORIENTAL ORTHODOX CHURCH HAS UNIVERSALLY AND OFFICIALLY DECLARED THAT THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH IS PRESENTLY ORTHODOX
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158422#msg158422 date=1343951126]
I am not picking on Isaac the Syrian or Constantine. The issue is not the sainthood of certain people but rather how the right faith is of utmost importance to belong to the one family of Christ which is the Church.
But what if, hypothetically speaking, this Right Faith was already determined to be the same?
Do you not believe our Saintly Patriarch H.H. Pope Shenouda III when he says the following:
"...Both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition, though they have used Christological terms in different ways. It is this common faith and continuous loyalty to the Apostolic Tradition that should be the basis for our unity and communion." (#9 of the Second Agreed Statement - 1990)
It boggles my mind that you can blatantly and explicitly oppose one of the most revered and honored human beings to ever walk upon the face of God's green Earth...and do it in the name of some twisted perception of Orthodoxy.
What you are promoting is not true Orthodoxy. And I thank God that I have not heard of any of our present Hierarchs expressing views that say that the Eastern Orthodox are currently schismatics.
What you are promoting is sadly...extremism.
May God have mercy on our souls.
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Both are not in communion as of yet. They do not acknowledge our saints and we do not acknowledge theirs ( as of the year 451).
So, Isaac the Syrian is not a saint in the Oriental Orthodox Church ... Neither is Constantine.
Isaac the Syrian belongs to the Chalcedonians, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and Constantine was a heretic.
Let me also address the resurrection and inheritance of the Holy Virgin Mary to the Kingdom of heaven. This idea is a heresy that the Oriental Church does not believe in. It goes against the scripture, the liturgical prayers of the COC as well as her liturgical readings and feasts. This issue was addressed in another thread: Differences between Coptic and Catholic Church.
Unofortunately, there is nothing called the Universal Orthodox Church. I truly wish there was.
Forgive me, but I don't think your statement holds much weight. For if your truly wanted there to be a Universal Orthodox Church, you would be working towards achieving one. And the clearest path for that right now is the path of lifting the anathemas the right way and uniting. This is the path which our Oriental Orthodox Church has chosen to take, and it is truly the most Christian.
Instead, you pigeon-hole yourself into this very overly restrictive and exclusive view that is foreign to the actual Priests and Bishops of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. This is what is I find odd...you're going against what almost all your Oriental Orthodox hierarchy preach.
Your view is that The Eastern Orthodox Church has no grace or valid sacraments, and is completely and utterly heterodox. Correct?
Well, this is the logical conclusion of your perspective:
-H.H. Pope Shenouda III, is wrong.
-Fr. Peter Farrington is wrong.
-The Coptic Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong.
-The Armenian Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong.
-The Ethiopian Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong.
-The Eritrean Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong.
-The Syrian Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong.
-The Malankara Syrian Orthodox Holy Synod is wrong.
-Almost every Oriental Orthodox Hierarch is wrong.
So basically, the entire Oriental Orthodox Communion is dead wrong in their universal recognition that the Eastern Orthodox are indeed Orthodox.
The only one that would be correct is you. The layman known as imikhail on Tasbeha.org.
Right?
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You are entitled to your conclusions and to the way you arrived to them.
I must say that the relationship between the Eastern and the Oriental has not been formalized as of yet. The Oriental Church do not accept the Eastern followers on an "as is" basis.
We Chrismate them with the Holy Myron first before they become members of the Church receiving her sacraments.
This issue has been addressed on a different thread.
Also, we cannot recognize their saints as saints within the Oriental Church till the anathemas are removed.
I must say that the relationship between the Eastern and the Oriental has not been formalized as of yet.
Do you want it to be?
Why not pursue peace as our Fathers have? Isn't reconciliation a virtue? Especially when it is being handled in the most correct and official way with nothing being compromised on our part? Isn't this the best case scenario?
Isn't this what Our Lord would want? "...That they all may be one." (John 17:21)
"Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it." (Psalm 34:14)
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955]
The Oriental Church do not accept the Eastern followers on an "as is" basis.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955]
We Chrismate them with the Holy Myron first before they become members of the Church receiving her sacraments.
I believe Fr. Peter Farrington is currently writing a paper on that. So, I will leave that discussion alone.
Fr. Peter has expressed that it is not correct to chrismate Eastern Orthodox members, since they are considered Orthodox by the Oriental Orthodox, and has not been done that way in centuries past.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955]
Also, we cannot recognize their saints as saints within the Oriental Church till the anathemas are removed.
Forgive me if I sound harsh, but I do not believe you want the anathemas removed...at all.
For some puzzling reason, you want the anathemas to stick.
You want to be the only one that is correct. And this is not the case.
You do not believe that the Sun can be bright and round at the same time.
I have a few questions for you. It will help me understand your perspective a bit:
1. If you believe your position is correct, then the Oriental Orthodox Church has been in GRAVE error for centuries.
If you believe that the ENTIRE Oriental Orthodox Communion is completely wrong in their conclusions about the Eastern Orthodox,
WHY DO YOU DEFEND THEM SO MUCH?
2. I named a few Oriental Orthodox Synods and highly regarded Oriental Orthodox theologians who claim that your view is wrong and unacceptable.
Please name a few current Synods, Bishops, Priests, Deacons or any other Oriental Orthodox Hierarchs that espouse your view that:
The Eastern Orthodox Church has no grace or valid sacraments, and is completely and utterly heterodox.
3. Do you believe our Saintly Patriarch H.H. Pope Shenouda III and all six (6) Oriental Orthodox Synods when they unanimously declare the following:
"...Both families have always loyally maintained the same authentic Orthodox Christological faith, and the unbroken continuity of the apostolic tradition, though they have used Christological terms in different ways. It is this common faith and continuous loyalty to the Apostolic Tradition that should be the basis for our unity and communion." (#9 of the Second Agreed Statement - 1990)
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[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955]
I must say that the relationship between the Eastern and the Oriental has not been formalized as of yet.
What difference does that make? What value does what I want would add or subtract from what we are discussing?
Faith is not a matter of personal feelings.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955]
The Oriental Church do not accept the Eastern followers on an "as is" basis.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955]
We Chrismate them with the Holy Myron first before they become members of the Church receiving her sacraments.
I am waiting eagerly for this research.
However, with all due respect to Father Peter, he is not the Church synod. I am glad that he is doing the research and hopefully it would move things in the positive direction.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158435#msg158435 date=1343994955]
Also, we cannot recognize their saints as saints within the Oriental Church till the anathemas are removed.
I am not going to comment on personal material. I will leave you to your conclusions and your opinions.
No formal agreement has been made. The Oriental side signed the agreement. The Eastern did not and withdrew their agreement.
That is why the anathemas are still present.
That is why we Chrismate the Eastern followers who seek to become Oriental.
That is why we do not recognize their saints and they do not recognize ours.
No formal agreement has been made. The Oriental side signed the agreement. The Eastern did not and withdrew their agreement.
The Eastern Orthodox may have withdrawn at certain points, but WE did not. And WE, from OUR perspective, UNIVERSALLY and UNANIMOUSLY consider them presently Orthodox.
And since WE consider them Orthodox, we are able to venerate Saints that are in another Orthodox Church's calendar. WE have agreed, but they, as a whole, have not.
And God willing, one day they will be able to view us as being equally and completely Orthodox as well.
I can assure you that when that day comes, it will not be due to the perspective which you choose to take. A perspective rooted in disunity, extremism and ethnocentrism.
Be sure of this:
OUR ORIENTAL ORTHODOX CHURCH HAS UNIVERSALLY AND OFFICIALLY DECLARED THAT THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH IS PRESENTLY ORTHODOX
We aren't united yet. But we're getting there.
And in the midst of all the incredible progress made by your own Oriental Orthodox Fathers, you choose to utterly defecate upon their divinely-inspired work; instead choosing to discard unity and favor polemical division instead...based entirely on your sole perception.
You cannot even name a current Oriental Orthodox hierarch that believes in your view that The Eastern Orthodox Church has no grace or valid sacraments, and is completely and utterly heterodox.
This...is sad.
I leave you with a letter I came across from Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople. This letter is a good summary of what the most dignified and theologically equipped Hierarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Church have to say about the Oriental Orthodox Church:
[center]Address to Patriarch Paul of Ethiopia[/center]
The work of the Joint Theological Commission has already demonstrated through common theological statements (1989 and 1990) that there is a complete agreement between us on the Christological dogma as well as the faith of the early church transmitted by the Apostles. The existing differences concerning the terminology, as well as the understandable differences regarding ecclesiastical customs emerging from the long period of separation, are possible to heal since they do not touch the depth of apostolic tradition. Our experience these days of the spiritual reality of the Divine Liturgy encourages us to continue our common way towards the common cup. It is not a way without difficulties, but is offered by Our Lord himself, the founder of the Church, to the apostles and their successors in the Church: “I do not pray for these only, but also those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, even as you Father are in me and I in you, that they may also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me” (John 17:20-21).
Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople
January 18, 1995
Episkepsis #15, 28.2
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[quote author=Ηεζεκιελ link=topic=13549.msg158420#msg158420 date=1343949137]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158417#msg158417 date=1343944824]
I started by saying that he will be removed. Yes, currently he is a saint because he was added erroneously.
He is a Saint only "currently"?? Please define "currently"...and he was added 'erronesoulsy'?? what does that mean?? Are you saying no one noticed the error sofar?? When you say he will be removed, are you predicting the future like a soothsayer or are you privy to an inside information of the COC? If I am wrong in my understanding, do you have a credible source that proves your claim that Emperor Constantine will be removed from the list of Saints in the near,distant future or whenever?
Calm down Ezekiel ....
If you have read my posts, you would have noticed that I gave a scholar, Abouna Shenouda Maher, who is involved in the matter. You can ask him.
Imikahail my problem is with your arguments and contradictions ,not with you.
When you claim, King Constanine was added erraneously, you are almost saying that some silly guy like me added him as a Saint and the church authority did not realise it.. but that is ,of course, not the case. If he was added, then he was added by the church and you seem to agree with that, since few posts above you are saying: In that case, how come the church had added him by mistake and did not realise the error until today? what were thy thinking? How do you explain this??
I asked you to provide me evidence issued by the church that the king is in the process of being removed from the list. All you did was give me the name of one person. You have not even given any sources where he had argued such things.
Nevertheless, you have set the rules earlier and said the following: I agree ,but your own rule should apply to you as well.So why should you think you can give us the name of a monk or priest o make your point, but reject when others do the same??
I ask you you to give me sources from the church synod , to use your very own word (since Abouna Maher, like Fr Peter is not the church synod) that proves your claim that Emperor Constanine will soon be removed from the list of Sainthood.
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
What was the error? That he was baptized Orthodox by the Pope of Rome.
Since we realized that this is false information and he was in fact Arian, was baptized Arian, and died Arian. He cannot be accepted as a saint.
Hope this clarifies the confusion.
May be this will make it clear,
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
Ok,thanks..so strange that the COC realised the error after many many centuries. However, where does it say that the "the Church knows about the error, he will be removed"..
In other words,
"I ask you you to give me sources from the church synod , to use your very own word (Remember Abouna Maher, like Fr Peter is not the church synod) that proves your claim that Emperor Constanine will soon be removed from the list of Sainthood."
I will make it easier.If you have no such sources,STATE SO and we move on!!
May be this will make it clear,
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
What was the error? That he was baptized Orthodox by the Pope of Rome.
The Byzantines themselves don't even believe this!
Eusebius of Caesarea's History even mentions that King Constantine was baptized on his deathbed.
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[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158450#msg158450 date=1344027233]
May be this will make it clear,
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
Ok,thanks..so strange that the COC realised the error after many many centuries. However, where does it say that the "the Church knows about the error, he will be removed"..
In other words,
"I ask you you to give me sources from the church synod , to use your very own word (Remember Abouna Maher, like Fr Peter is not the church synod) that proves your claim that Emperor Constanine will soon be removed from the list of Sainthood."
I will make it easier.If you have no such sources,STATE SO and we move on!!
I have stated the source many times. You chose to ignore it.
Rest assured that Constantine will be removed from the COC dyptich for his Arianism belief.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=13549.msg158450#msg158450 date=1344027233]
May be this will make it clear,
He was added erroneously by the COC based on false info we obtained from the Byzantines. Now that the Church knows about the error, he will be removed.
What was the error? That he was baptized Orthodox by the Pope of Rome.
The Byzantines themselves don't even believe this!
Eusebius of Caesarea's History even mentions that King Constantine was baptized on his deathbed.
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Their belief does not change historical facts.
The fact is that Constantine was baptized by an Arian bishop and thus we cannot accept his sainthood.