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Women Deacons at St.Mark, Cali?
I watched some Pascha Services and the Pascha Liturgy at St. Marks, Los Angeles. The front rows were occupied by seemingly young women vested in deacon's tonias and a pallium like special vestment around their necks. I have never seen similarly vested women (except Catholic altar girls and some seemingly unauthorized altar girls in individually liberal OCA churches). What is this latest innovation from the Coptic feminist left coast?
Comments
Wrong
Oujai
The Left Coast is the problem. It follows the general American Trend. California is a bastion of liberalism.
Its liberalism is a disease for the entire United States of America.
I will address your questions with an open mind. I expect the same in return. If you respond with a rant about feminism or Coptic clergy authority, then I will not continue.
First of all, I'd like to point out that your rhetoric, (most likely unintentional), is deceptive. Comparing female liturgical clothing to non-Orthodox churches, to Orthodox churches who practice unauthorized practices, and to non-Christian liberalist, does not make the Coptic Church in general and St Mark Church, LA in particular neither non-Orthodox, nor illegally practicing ecclesiastical criminals, nor feminist liberals. You've drawn a conclusion based on circumstantial observations without facts.
What you observed in those services was a female choir dressed in neo-Coptic garments. Some churches place garments on these female choirs, other churches have a female choir without any special garments.
I can give you plenty of references for the historical development of Coptic liturgical garments, both men and women. However, I don't believe this is the point of your question.
Your question is not clear. Do you feel the garment is inappropriate, or do you feel female choirs are inappropriate? I will argue that neither is inappropriate. I will argue that it is a missionary mechanism (with cultural influences) designed to involve more people to the Orthodox practices of liturgical praise. Just because this particular missionary mechanism is designed to involve women, it doesn't make it a Freudian, feminist corruption. If that video from St Mark in LA had a few rows of male catechumen and converts with the same garments, would we be having this discussion?
Since I am unfamiliar to your "Holy patriarchal gender and family order", I don't know exactly what you are uncomfortable with. If you respond with a concise description, preferably with Scriptural evidence, then we can discuss.
ILSM, I hope I misunderstood what you wrote. Please refrain from stereotypical, hurtful comments against California and the Californian Coptic diocese. What exactly makes California "a bastion of liberalism" more than any other state or Coptic diocese? Just like irishpilgrim, are you objecting to female choirs or are you drawing conclusions based solely on observations?
I don't have anything against girl choirs. I do have a major problem with trying to veil and elevate a false existence which will undoubtedly perpetuate itself into worse issues for the Church.
I think it is nonsense that absolution and the prayers of investiture are being presented to these girls.
Although, the use of terms such as "shammasa" and "deaconness" to denote a girl choir member has been allowed to propagate--which is inappropriate and wrong.
I don't have anything against girl choirs. I do have a major problem with trying to veil and elevate a false existence which will undoubtedly perpetuate itself into worse issues for the Church.
I think it is nonsense that absolution and the prayers of investiture are being presented to these girls.
Why are these prayers of investiture and absolution being presented to male chanters?
Can you elaborate? What exact is it that is disgusting behavior? Female choirs? Female liturgical vestments? What?
ILSM,
Thank you for a response that promotes discussion. Until we have a more meaningful, semantic term for female choirs, we can only use what people understand. For now, deaconess is the most commonly understood term for a member of a female choir. I can see how you (and others) may resist the elevation of any foreign, uncommon act as a false existence. But if it is done with the purest intention to spread the gospel, and it is not directly against the Scriptures and/or disapproved by the current Synod or previous fathers, we should have an open mind.
Andrew,
You beat me to it. The rank of singer, psaltos, at one point in time recently had a false existence. Yet it developed with prayers and absolutions. It should not be so foreign that female chanters will have prayers and absolution. Again, it is about participating in the liturgy. It is not the only way people will participate. But it does have a great benefit if females feel like they belong and can contribute to the liturgy.
:)
While I am away, I ask that everyone who wants to propose or defend any element of freudian and/or feminist theology (thealogy) provide precise texts and references to those principles that you espouse. Please also provide us with the names and favorite works (or passages) of the freudian and feminist theologians that you most respect or follow. Please also include a comment to show the beliefs of your favorite freudian/ feminist, if any, that you do not accept.
My favorite current authority on feminism in the christian churches is Mrs. Donna Steichen, author of UNGODLY RAGE, The Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism. She is too unaware, as I once was, of the demonic heresies that have resulted from the Catholic hierarchs’ and intellectuals' determination to compromise their Fathers' traditions. Never the less, her words and actions have been obedient to St. Paul’s delegation of specific authority to righteous women to teach and encourage patriarchal family order to the young women. Titus 2:3-5. My favorite all-time authority on feminist theology is St. John Chrysostom. Although St. Chrysostom and our St. Theophilos seemingly intimately experienced the powerful divisive demonic influences of feminist deception and quest for power in the Orthodox churches, we don't have their counsel for our guidance in the current related heresies.
My favorite anthology of freudian beliefs and practices is the award winning BBC documentary video series, THE CENTURY OF THE SELF, Parts 1-4. This series consists of four-one hour videos of the ongoing history, from about 1900 thru the 1990’s of the major freudian pseudo-scientific schemes to make money and social control from the pseudo-religion devised by atheist Sigmund Freud. Vital background information on the medical genius behind this scheme is presented in Freud and Cocaine at: http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/cocaine/.
My favorite freudian theologians are Martin and Deirdre Bobgan, who authored and published the book PsychoHeresy in 1987. The Bobgans conduct PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries and its website. I have searched for, but have not identified any orthodox freudians who do not espouse that traditional patriarchal orthodox biblical theology should be compromised to generally accepted freudian speculations. A summary of the Bobgans’ principles and experiences in opposing psychoheresies is posted at http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/editors.html. ;
Is this the least bit surprising? It is pretty much a Coptic Protestant Church out there. Disgusting behavior.
It doesn't have to be like that. It can still be very Orthodox. I.e. look at our Syriac sister churches. St. Ephrem instituted the Syriac choirs to be made up entirely of women. Indeed, they are not ordained at all. Their function is just to chant. The problem lies in us thinking that our 'deacons' are really true deacons and this is where the shock and objection come in.
Also look at the Russian Orthodox and Byzantine churches which have mixed choirs. Usually none of the chanters are ordained. The ordained clergy are usually stationed at the altar as is proper.
I'm not sure if you dodged my question or just missed it. . .
But if you think that these prayers for female chanters are nonsense do you also think they are nonsense for males? Should the prayers you referred to be done away with for chanters and be reserved only for deacons?
As for the males, I do not know if there is a specific wording from the Holy Synod. A male chanter is not tonsured.
As a personal comment (purely and not ecclesiastically) I believe the prayers of vesting and investiture should only be for the qualified ranks of the diaconate. Chanters are not from the ranks of the diaconate.
On a practical basis and in acceptance of the role of women to help in their participation, I do not have any problems with a female choir. The simple fact of wearing unified robes will at least help with modesty and proper presence in the church, which unfortunately, the young ladies have taken on the spell of the western appearance to a gross sense. I just hope that they don't cackle and talk as much as the males when they are in their designated areas.
Do you hear yourself? "I hope that they don't cackle and talk as much as the males...". You know i respect you greatly ilsm, but that statement is really offensive to me. I don't know if you have even seen them in reality, but they don't do anything. All they do is just pray Our Father... with abouna and then they put on their garments. It's not a new rank, and isn't going to be in the future, and the cackling and talking should be kept to a minimum by both genders not just females. Of all people, Anba Serapion wouldn't admit something into the church that would be against it. Anba Serapion is one of those bishops whose talent is in research. If anybody knows what is right and wrong according to church rights and dogma it would be Anba Serapion.
ILSM, if i have understood you wrong please correct me, because this doesn't sound like you right now.
I also said: I have nothing against a female choir.
I also said that people should not go parading or misconceiving the issue of this as being any sanctioined rank--because it is not. However, I hear people, mistakingly using terms as "shamasa" and "deaconess" which they are most certainly not.
There was a female poster on this site that was claiming to be a "deaconess". She was beligerent and plainly inflated in her conceptions. I believe she said: "You can take it up with the Pope." These are the sort of things that I hope can be avoided, because they tend to perpetuate themselves.
Try putting yourself in the girls shoes. They come to liturgy and just stand there, while we, deacons, participate much more. This whole "deaconess" thing is just giving the girls a chance to boast. If I wasnt Coptic and I saw them a liturgy next to the deacons, I would never think that the males have any higher rank in the church.
Ioannes,
Can you elaborate? What exact is it that is disgusting behavior? Female choirs? Female liturgical vestments? What?
ILSM,
Thank you for a response that promotes discussion. Until we have a more meaningful, semantic term for female choirs, we can only use what people understand. For now, deaconess is the most commonly understood term for a member of a female choir. I can see how you (and others) may resist the elevation of any foreign, uncommon act as a false existence. But if it is done with the purest intention to spread the gospel, and it is not directly against the Scriptures and/or disapproved by the current Synod or previous fathers, we should have an open mind.
Andrew,
You beat me to it. The rank of singer, psaltos, at one point in time recently had a false existence. Yet it developed with prayers and absolutions. It should not be so foreign that female chanters will have prayers and absolution. Again, it is about participating in the liturgy. It is not the only way people will participate. But it does have a great benefit if females feel like they belong and can contribute to the liturgy.
The integration of schism (protestantism) into our church, THAT is what is disgusting to me.
By the statement I made, I was alluding to the fact that the males tend to talk and cackle too much, and that I was hoping the females would not do the same.
I also said: I have nothing against a female choir.
I also said that people should not go parading or misconceiving the issue of this as being any sanctioined rank--because it is not. However, I hear people, mistakingly using terms as "shamasa" and "deaconess" which they are most certainly not.
There was a female poster on this site that was claiming to be a "deaconess". She was beligerent and plainly inflated in her conceptions. I believe she said: "You can take it up with the Pope." These are the sort of things that I hope can be avoided, because they tend to perpetuate themselves.
Oh okay, thank God that's what you meant. I agree 110%. Forgive me for my horrible comprehension :).